Talk:Router

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Contents 1 Cleanup 1.1 Function section cleanup 1.2 Types of routers section cleanup 2 Hubs 3 Picture needed 4 First router 5 Update 6 Pronunciation 7 Wireless Routers 8 External links 9 Street analogy 10 Pictures

[edit] Cleanup

I'm flagging this article as in need of cleanup for several reasons, primarily because I find it hard to understand, even though I already know what a router is. (Note that I'm splitting this message into three or four parts to facilitate discussion of the different points made)--Verbatim9 01:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

(please discuss whether this article should (or should still) be flagged here...once there's discussion this text can be deleted)

[edit] Function section cleanup

In the "function" section, the article gets into what a router isn't too soon, before it has really finished describing what a router does. Contrasting a router and a switch may be useful in explaining what makes a router a router, but after the reader has been given a grasp of what a router does. Also, I think some comparison is in order...switches are after all hubs that perform a kind of low-level routing, determining (whenever possible) what computer each packet is for, and sending that packet only to the appropriate computer...it would be good to explain that (in a few words) before contrasting it with the higher-level functionality of a true router, and offering analogies. --Verbatim9 01:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

(please discuss/propose changes to the Function section here)

I agree that a comparision is in order; switches should be compared to hubs in the switch section, routers to switches in the router section. What I'm not a fan of is your description of a switch. Switches don't perform routing even "low level" routing; switches merely foreward information to a port that they know the destination device is on; the key being that they foreward, not route. Other than that, I agree with you. Daniel Owens (Dohedo) 18:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't think I knew enough about switches (among other aspects of the article) to describe the relationship correctly, which was part of why I posted on the discussion page, suggesting a direction for improvement, rather than editing the article myself. Having read up on them a little more, I see your point...they both keep routing/forwarding tables used to send packets/frames in the right direction, but a switch/bridge leaves the frame unchanged, whereas a router replaces the frame, and re-packages the data as well when necessary (e.g. due to NAT or packet size/format changes between the networks). None of that is reflected in the current analogies... Verbatim9 20:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"Switches don't perform routing" - What about layer 3 switches? do these perform routing? Or is it still just forwarding to an address? RoninNZ 23:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Types of routers section cleanup

I think there are a couple problems here:

• The initial portion seems to go into too much historical and technical detail...how many typical encyclopedia readers know what a minicomputer was, how many have heard of ARPAnet before, how many know what an IMP is/was? How many typical encyclopedia readers know enough about PSTN hardware to recognize or benefit from a comment on their similarity to modern router hardware? I think some of this information needs to either be removed for simplicity's sake, or separated into a "history" section. --Verbatim9 01:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

With the addition of the history section, and an accompanying reduction in the density of unfamiliar terms, I think this particular issue is now pretty well resolved. Verbatim9 20:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Routers in different locations in the network are notably different from one another...the functionality of each major type of router should be made clear (at a level of detail appropriate for an encyclopedia). Describing how each fulfills routing functions might serve to clarify what a router is. Currently the article talks about several different kinds of routers (core, edge, home DSL/Cable routers, "one-armed" VPN routers). It might be worthwhile to create subsections for each of these (though someone with more knowledge of the subject should decide whether core/edge routers are worth describing separately) under the "types of routers" section. Also, as requested below, it might be worth adding an explanation of wireless routers (both the standalone wireless routers used e.g. in campus networks, and the inclusion of a wireless network segment in many DSL/cable routers). --Verbatim9 01:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that the differences in the different router types should be mentioned, perhaps a small section, I feel that most of the differences are in the setup, not the hardware (although that can depend on the manufacturer and your budget). More often than not, you know if something's a border device or not based on the routing protocols used. I feel that the depth is really more discussing what routing protocol is normally used where, when, and why. The actual physical differences in a core/edge router are normally tiny, if at all; I can stick a 7600 or 7200 anywhere on the network, but I'm more likely to put it on the edge just because it is expensive. The tasks performed are the same... it is really a matter of cost (a router, is a router, is a router in its functionality and it's hardware... more ports just means more costly). As for history, this is an encyclopedia; its duty is to present the history of things where relevent. I feel that the history shaped the devices and gave rise for the need to have routers, so I feel the history is fine. If someone doesn't want/need to know the history, they can skip the section; if it is in-depth, then the person will have the potential to learn more. That is just my opinion. Daniel Owens (Dohedo) 18:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hubs

You know what might be swell for the countless neophytes who with the advent of household broadband Internet access are now encountering switches, routers and hubs in their everyday lives and don't know what they are.. It might be nice to see a differentiation between a switch and a hub, which many would assume (but not altogether correctly) does the same thing that a switch does. Don't look to me to put the information down; I don't know it! :)Bstct 16:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Well it would be more suitable to compare a switch to a hub in one of their articles as this is about routers. Plus, the home "Router" isn't a true router as it doesn't truly route any information but just shares the internet connection up. Cdscottie 3:28, 09 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture needed

Could we have a GFDL-free picture of something like a big Juniper router for this article, please? -- The Anome 23:02, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Consumer-grade routers are piddly compared to REAL routers. --CCFreak2K 10:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First router

The first modern (dedicated, standalone) routers were the Fuzzball routers.

from the article because it's wrong. The first routers (in the sense of packet switches that work off internetwork-level headers) were either:

• The first BBN routers (which were done in BCPL, iirc, although it may have been Bliss-11) under an OS called ELF, running on PDP-11/40's, or
• The earliest PUP routers at Xerox PARC.

According to The Fuzzball, by David L. Mills, the first Fuzzball router was around 1977, and those other two were almost certainly earlier - circa 75 or so. Noel (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Update

The article is a little misleading- it states that routing happens at layer 3 of the OSI reference model, but we are always using some implementation of that model which is usually TCP/IP.

--I disagree; the TCP/IP model is what they use in Universities because it is more abstract, so it is easier to teach. I can state as a fact that Cisco's Networking Academy was still focusing on the OSI model as of May 2003 because if you want an in-depth discussion or to get down to the "nitty gritty", OSI is what you should be using. For my CCNA exams we had to know the OSI model backwards and forewards and just recognize the differences between it and the TCP/IP model. If they were to use the TCP/IP model in the discussion, the distinction between a router and an "intelligent switch" (which is what you buy from someplace like BestBuy that claims to be a router which it is not) becomes much harder to explain. The article should, however, point out that routers not only separate the IP domains, but also the collision domains. Many people don't know/realise this fact, although they should be able to connect the dots (it's better not to assume).

Routers are OSI Layer 3. Switches and Bridges are OSI Layer 2. NICs, hubs, and repeaters are OSI Layer 1. If there is anything wrong in those statements, then Cisco is wrong, but that's not the case, so this article is not incorrect in stating the OSI layer is 3. I would suggest that the article is not misleading, but that the TCP/IP model is misleading; my proof being that most University grads in the US who take senior level networking courses do not know that the things at BestBuy are merely "intelligent" switch and NOT routers, no matter what the box says. Daniel Owens (Dohedo) 18:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Anyone feel like adding a section on the correct pronunciation of the word, i.e., 'rooter' rather than 'rawter'?

Depends where you are from though. -- Thorpe ^talk 12:37, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

There is an etymologically (and logically) defensible pronunciation, and then there is an American pronunciation. It depends on how fast and loose you want to be with 'right' and 'wrong' I suppose.

Actually, there is an etymologically defensible pronunciation, and then there is a pseudo-French pronunciation. The word route (from which this is derived) was borrowed into English from French before the Great Vowel Shift, meaning that the pronunciation rhyming with "out" is the historically correct one. The pronunciation rhyming with "boot" is later, and comes from a desire to "sound more French". —Angr 06:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone had added this recently; check the history. I removed it because both are used and pronunciations aren't a typical feature of Wikipedia articles. But please feel free to take this to Wiktionary, where it is both appropriate and needed (currently only 'rawter' is listed). --Rick Sidwell 02:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

A fair point, but perhaps it will serve a use in allowing some speakers of that fascinating language, American, to see the error of their ways :)

Transcription seems to be a bit dodgy, can anyone correct that?

/'raut@r/ for US, /'ru:t@/ for UK (in SAMPA).

Wathiik 15:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, pronunciations are common in Wikipedia articles in cases where they might be unclear. But since the /u:/ pronunciation is also common in the U.S., there should be no suggestion that it's strictly a US/UK distinction. —Angr 06:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wireless Routers

There is no mention of wireless routers. I wanted to know how they are different from other types of routers. This article doesn't help at all. Twilight Realm 21:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

--This depends on how strict you want to be with the term router. The subdomains are likely separated in a wireless system from the subdomain that the wired ports are on, if it has wired ports. To be a true router it must separate the collision domains as well as the subdomains/subnets. You can buy wireless routers that are real routers (e.g., CISCO 1811W) or you could go to BestBuy and get something that is really an "intelligent" switch that really only separates the collision domains and sort of separates the subdomains/subnets. One of the key ways to know if you really have a router versus a switch is the price... general rule of thumb is that if it's less than $200.00 it's not likely a real router. Also, if your wireless device has no wired ports, chances are it is not a router (please note that this is not always the case, but those devices that do not hold true here tend to be professional equipement). Daniel Owens (Dohedo) 18:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Wireless routers need no special distinction at all. What you call a "wireless router" is merely a consumer NAT appliance that happens to have a built in wireless network interface built in, or possibly a real router with a wireless network interface attached. --Afed 14:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Recently a lot of external links have been added to the companies listed in the "Manufacturers of routers" section. Is this really necessary, when there are allready links to WP articles (which contain the same external links) for those companies? Ahy1 22:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, noone seems to have an opinion on this, so I removed the external links, also removed some red WP links. Still, there are a lot of links in this list, and I really don't think such a list belongs in an encyclopedic article about routers. I will probably remove the complete section, if noone objects within reasonable time. Ahy1 11:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This article features inappropriate use of external links. The list of manufacturers doesn't really belong on this page anyway, most members of the list are already linked internally. Those articles should have the external links. Not this one. I'm removing all of them again. External links really belong it a separate section at the bottom. This article already has the appropriate section and the manufacturer external links certainly don't belong there either. Nposs 03:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Street analogy

While there is a comment (within the source code) that the street/freeway analogy is confusing, there seems to be no attempt to improve it. Can someone think of a better analogy? My solution would be remove the analogy entirely. It suffices to say that switches know only of limited (their own) IP addresses while routes maintain a full list (routing table).

You know, I just clicked on the "Discuss" tab because I wanted to congratulate the author of this paragraph, then I've seen your message. I find the analogies between the street and the switch, and between the IP and the home adress very clear. It gets a little more complicated when it introduces on-ramps and freeways. There are probably better words for this. But please keep the first part of this paragraph as it is, I find it written in a very understandable way. My understanding of what is a router and how different it is from a switch has improved thanks to these few lines. --CutterX 21:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I found the analogy to be confusing, and not particularly helpful. Rosensteel 13:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I had to read it several times and use previous knowledge to make sense of the analogy. I'd suggest clean it up or remove it. Jaws87 14:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

In my PC Config & Repair class, my professor had a good one: let's say that he slept with the girlfriends of all the guys in some bar. As they close in to kick his ass, he points away and shouts, "What's that?!" As they all turn to look, he jumps over the bar and turns out the lights. Now if he asks, "Hey, where's Bob," Bob replies, "I'm over here!" Some other people around Bob would say "Hey, I heard Bob." The router is the guy by the door. We can go to the guy at the door and say, "is Jim here?" The door guy looks around and says, "no, he's not in here. I can see him outside, though." I don't know if that was exactly it, but that's the gist of it. --CCFreak2K 10:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I merely fixed the analogy that had been in use before (which was totally messed up). I have used the streets and freeways analogy in many places because the media labels the Internet as information highways or the "infobahn". Two points that are important to routers: they join networks and they have a routing table. Whatever analogy you end up using, it needs to make these two points clear. The street analogy makes sense since it does join two road network and the routing tables are the street signs that have the block numbers written below the street name. I'm open to replace the analogy if you can find a better one.

By the way, the bar example does not make a huge distinction between all the guys in the bar versus the guy standing at the corner (who is the router) pointing to where people ran off to.

Kgrr 21:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

This articles needs pictures for real routers, not just home ones. St.isaac 21:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

My home router seems very real to me. --Marco 17:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with St. Isaac, a Nat box is only allowing multiple computers access to the internet but does not route packets. A true router routes packets, so we should have a picture of a real router to limit confusion. Cdscottie 19:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a Cisco 7200. It is used as a edge router at the ISP where I work. Is it real enough? If it is and the picture is bad, I can go take a better one. Jonathan Auer 22:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Could always just dig up a Cisco 2800 series router. Cdscottie 2 December 2006

I think the current Cisco 7200 router picture is very representative of routers used in data centers. What I find nice about the current picture is that it shows the large number of interface types possible. Kgrr 20:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

This article does need more about non-domestic routers. Secretlondon 19:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)