Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog 3
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. | |
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. | |
|
CVG To-do:
|
||
[edit] Master Emerald & STI
The master Emerald Was never mentioned until Sonic & Knuckles (And as such, Sonic 3 & Knuckles came out) It had nothing to do with the plot of Sonic 3 as a stand-alone game. I think that should be made clearer in the artical.
Also, I believe Sonic team only made Sonic 1 & Sonic CD. Sonic 2 & Sonic 3 were made by Sega Technical Institution in America (See http://ghz.emulationzone.org/team.html, and, if anyone has it, the UK Sonic 2 ofical Walkthrough)
Any thoughts?
--Seeing as ther were no objections, I went a head and made the changes, while I was at it, downloaded a copy of the full article, and re-wrote a lot of it. Please review and change as you think is necessary.
- "After the release of Sonic the Hedgehog, Lead Programmer Yuji Naka had grown dissatisfied with the rigid corporate policies at Sega, so he moved to America to work with the Sega Technical Institute. Incidentally, a large number of the original design team of Sonic also left for America, to help instructing the American developers. With half of Sonic Team and two of its most important creators present, the Sega Technical Institute eventually got the job to develop Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
- Meanwhile in Japan, Sonic CD was handled by a separate development team, headed by Sonic creator Naoto Ohshima. As both Sonic CD and Sonic 2 were developed independently from each other, each game took a different direction from Sonic 1. Eventually the gameplay of Sonic 2 would be favoured for the future games but this explains why the theme and handling of Sonic CD are different, as well as the use of Sonic 1's sprites for Sonic. The time posts also had pseudo-3D sprites similar to the Knuckles' Chaotix title screen."
- From Wikipedia's Sonic CD article. Technically, Sonic 2, 3 and K were made by SEGA Technical Institute but half of the Sonic Team that made Sonic 1, including Yuji Naka, worked on it. Perhaps putting this info in the Sonic 3 article would clear up any problems.
- - 137.186.165.143 04:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
-
- As I recall, the only game after Sonic 1 to be produced under the Sonic Team was actually Nights into Dreams.
Talking of emeralds before I forget... It says that there are 2 sets of Chaos emeralds, But I've never heard that from the Game itself, the Manuals or the newer recent games. I always thought it was a simpler storyline : Eggman landed on Angel Island - Knuckles has to protect the Master emerald. Eggman tells Knuckles that Sonic is arriving to attack and that Sonic wants the Master emerald. so Knuckles steals the Emeralds from Sonic, knowing of them he seals them away (as his ancestors owned them until they were taken away by the gods and sealed until Sonic 1 and 2) While knuckles was fighting Sonic, it gave Eggman enough time to relaunch his space station the Death Egg, which was critically damaged by Sonic once again, and then this is where the Master Emerald as fuel for the ship came into the storyline. --Tquinnathome1 11:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Master Emerald
As previously discussed, Until Sonic & Knuckles/Sonic 3 & Knuckles, there is no mention of the master emerald in the Sonic 3 Storyyline. I have removed that section of the Storyline. 81.137.159.61 11:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Michael Jackson's contribution
It has come to my attention that Michael Jackson may have been the author of some of the original Sega Genesis Sonic 3 music. Amidst scandals, he may have not been credited. When the Sonic and Knuckles collection came out on PC, many of the tracks were completely changed. Due to the strong resemblance to particular Michael Jackson songs and those removed, many are led to believe there is a possible connection. It's an interesting bit of trivia that might need to be added somehow. [1] 24.165.203.79 04:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- If you ask me, the whole thing is really very dubious. The notion that speeding up one of his songs makes it sound like Ice Cap Zone Act 1, in particular. Who the hell listens to Michael Jackson songs sped up, other than to mess around? Even then it's only "noticeable" if you play the two tracks overlapping. If people look that hard enough they're bound to "find" something. You may correct me if I'm wrong, but the tracks that were changed for the PC were in the Japanese version, were they not? Similar to how Sonic CD had two soundtracks? --L T Dangerous 16:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
-
- The Japanese music is the same as the ones in the United States. I still believe the PC version had different music because the music could not be properly recreated on a MIDI or FM Synth, which you could possibly do nowadays. Hell, they could've done like what they did with the PC version of Sonic CD and use Redbook CD audio... -TonicBH 07:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Maybe, but that would make it impossible for the music to loop the way it does in the game.E Liquere 01:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
-
[edit] Sonic 3 and Michael Jackson
We are not going through this again. Unless we get more proof from besides a former employee, I'm still not biting it. -TonicBH 08:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- How about this, then, from Cirocco (ie: "Scirocco" from the credits, but lacking the initial 's')? Here's a choice quote:
- Cirocco’s projects include collaborating with “The King of Pop”, Michael Jackson, for the Sega Video Game “Sonic The Hedge Hog”; theme music for BET’s “Comic View”; additional production & remix chores for Quincy Jones featuring Tamia; and also additional production work for Alvin Speights and Dallas Austin for the Grammy winning release - Fanmail by TLC.
- Seems like further conclusive evidence to me, as if the e-mail from Roger Hector and the video drawing all the audio comparisons aren't enough. --Shadow Hog 16:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I had brought it back in after I got complaints about it outside of here, however I rephrased it (Jackson HIMSELF didn't work on Sonic 3, but Jackson's TEAM did). -TonicBH 21:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- True. Discussion over, then. :P --Shadow Hog 23:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I had brought it back in after I got complaints about it outside of here, however I rephrased it (Jackson HIMSELF didn't work on Sonic 3, but Jackson's TEAM did). -TonicBH 21:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Michael Jackson again
I'm cutting the entire section out. It's nothing more than elaborate guess-work and speculation. Of the two references provided, the first link is dead and the other leads to a contentious YouTube video that simply rephrases the same list of speculations as in the article. A lot of the items come across like a discussion between editors and feature too much weasel words either way ("may", "might" , "likely",...) Michael Jackson (but more likely, members of his team) *might* have been involved (in talks, barely) at *one point* but it's doubtful he/they contributed music of any kind. The evidence surrounding the song similarities is entirely circumstancial. You know, a lot of Doom's music was drawn upon songs by Metallica, but that doesn't mean Metallica was involved in the soundtrack. It's merely homage by composer Bobby Prince. I've yet to see a single piece of conclusive evidence. --Steerpike 19:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- --Thank you for doing so, I should have posted something here before I edited it adding in the speculative nature of the topic. There is more evidence on the topic torwards MJ actually being involved, but the very nature of the way it was being proved in the article was based on speculative evidence.
- Stranger in Moscow was recorded a year after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 came out however, and it DOES contain identical chord progression.
- http://www.sonic-cult.org/dispart.php?catid=1&gameid=3&subid=2&artid=16 cites alot of hard evidence agains't Jackson, such as the names\nicknames of the people listed on the credits being linked to people related with Jackson.
- Not only is there evidence, but the person known as (S)Cirocco, which appears in the Sonic 3 credits even has Jackson cited as a collab for "Sonic the Hedgehog" theme music, and as Sonic the Hedgehog 1 and 2 were composed by Dreams Come True member Masato Nakamura, Sonic 3 only seems to fit in the involvement.
- "Cirocco’s projects include collaborating with “The King of Pop”, Michael Jackson, for the Sega Video Game “Sonic The Hedge Hog”;"
- "Among his henchman were Brad Buxer (worked with Jackson all the time), Bobby Brooks (credited for Synthesizer Programming and Drums and Percussions in MJs HIStory and other albums), Darryl Ross (wrote music for Jacko, also credited in HIStory booklet), Geoff Grace (worked with Michael Jackson, also credited in HIStory booklet), and Doug Grigsby (credited in MJs HIStory and Blood On The Dance Floor - google this one up yourself - there are tonsa results). " 24.27.47.160 16:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Cirocco's discography lists the following collaboration:
Artist: Michael Jackson
Song: “The Water” Sonic Cues – (levels 2 & 3)
Company: MJJ / Pebbles Music / Sega Corporation
Project: Sonic The Hedgehog – Game theme music cues
Role: Programmer, Additional Production by Cirocco and Arranger-Composer (with Brad Buxer)
Granted, this is slighly more substantial than a mere list of song similarities, but there are still a few things I'm scratching me head over. To start with, the details of this page suggest this song, named "The Water", was part of levels 2 and 3, so I'm obviously guessing it's meant to be Hydrocity. What it's got to do with Marble Garden I don't know, but of course the point is that both of these levels have traditionally NOT been cited as evidence for Michael Jackson's involvement.
The other website you linked to merely repeats the points of the deleted section here and the video on YouTube. I still don't buy the whole chord-progression thing, for example. A lot of songs have identical chord progression. However, even if members of Jackson's team were involved it could simply mean 1) they have recurring style-elements in their music or 2) liked bits of the game soundtrack enough to recycle it later on in music for Michael Jackson.
And if indeed, as the site implies, they were involved, it's still just members of Jackson's team, and not Jackson himself. If this subject has to be re-integrated into the article it should make this clear, as well citing direct evidence to support these claims instead of summing up debated similarities. I still don't think it's much more than an interesting bit of trivia, but if it's written back into the article, and written well, I won't delete it again. --Steerpike 20:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Box art
Rattleman thank you for your contribution but in Gods name why change the box art to the American version! What was wrong with my picture? It was a higher resolution as well. Now there are two images of box art floating around Wikipedia and quite needlessly so. I'm sorry but I might change this back unless you can offer me some coherent explanation... I mean, what's the point? --Steerpike 10:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I have a bias of sorts to the American box ^^; Most pirates use parts of the version of the box that you posted for their pirate boxes, and it has since been regarded by me as not as good. It doesn't look as professional to begin with, and look: Sonic's holding up FOUR fingers! In the Japanese boxart and the American boxart he holds up three fingers. Plus, I grew up looking at that box whenever I went to go play Sonic. Also...I can't really argue this well it would be better to have the American box as I think that most people that would come to this article would be American. -- RattleMan 22:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
-
- So you admit this a clear case of Americocentrism :p For the record, he is holding up three fingers isn't he? You're not counting his right hand though? And if we're going to get sentimental, I grew up watching the European box. And about that last thing: the English speaking world extends quite a bit further beyond the US you know ;)
-
- I think if we really want to be correct we should put the Japanese art since that was the first release. Look, you *can* and *may* put the American Box if you want (since this is after all Wikipedia free to edit for anyone blabla) but I think some changes should be sufficiently justified. Otherwise Wikipedia would get swamped with images (and sometimes I'm wondering how many there are actually in this database allready...). --Steerpike 22:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
- Going down the line: Yes, I am counting his right hand; I understand the English speaking world extends beyond the US (I know maaaaaaany foreigners who speak English, including a Hungarian, Englishman (England), Hungarian, Scotsman, Polish-man, Canadian...the list could go on; I agree with the Japanese boxart but some people might be ignorant and think the Japanese art is fake; I also wonder how many unlinked and unused images there are too. No hard feelings though ^^; Good job with improving various Sonic articles so far. -- RattleMan 23:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
- I think if we really want to be correct we should put the Japanese art since that was the first release. Look, you *can* and *may* put the American Box if you want (since this is after all Wikipedia free to edit for anyone blabla) but I think some changes should be sufficiently justified. Otherwise Wikipedia would get swamped with images (and sometimes I'm wondering how many there are actually in this database allready...). --Steerpike 22:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Regular Shield
Regular Shield:(Confusion in the manual)
I deleted this. The shield doesn't exist in the game, and so it shouldn't be in the list of Sonic 3 shields.
In sonic 3's manual, they claim there is a regular sheild as there was previously in sonic 2, but this shield never appeared...
I edited this for English. Also, can anybody who owns a Sonic 3 manual confirm this? I've moved this (edited) tidbit to the trivia section, since it doesn't really have much to do with Sonic 3's gameplay. -- Drumnbach 02:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- I just checked my (PAL) manual and it has no mention of this at all. I've deleted it and put another bit of trivia in there instead. -- Galvy 21:09, 05 Febuary 2006
[edit] Ice Cap Zone BGM
*The background music for the Ice Cap Zone is widely considered by fans to be the best piece of music in Sonic's history, and one of the best tunes of any video game. Because of its popularity, it has been remixed to death, with hundreds of remixes of it available on the Internet.
This seems a bit biased, especially where it states that it is one of the best tunes of any videogame. I have edited this for POV. -- Drumnbach 00:29, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
He never stated that it was a fact... just an opinion held by some fans...
This isn't a site for fans, this is an encyclopedia. The reason it has so many remixes is the way the song is constructed, it is INCREDIBLY EASY to remix. So while people may make remix it more than other songs, that doesn't give it merit as the best song. The use of "hundreds" is also an exaggeration and has no evidence to back it up. --Shadix
[edit] Wikibooks
I started a book about this game at Wikibooks. Gerard Foley 02:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- The old wikibooks guide is now at WikiKnowledge Gerard Foley 18:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What in the world...
Someone gave this page a major change overnight, and while I'm not against such drastic changes (parts of this pages could definitely have used a rewrite), I didn't think Sonic 3 was in such a bad need of this. The new page included way too much info on levels and saving. The stoyline and gameplay have been made a lot longer as well. We should take a look at the best elements of both pages and combine them into one good article. This means neutral, relevant and to-the-point info. --Steerpike 11:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well Wikipedia does encourage you to be bold, which is what I tried. I put the note at the top of this page regarding the wrong development team and storyline in the article over six months ago, and got no feedback, so I thought it was time to have a go at correcting it.
- I can understand your concerns over too much info in the article, but I did do a lot of research to flesh or increase detail in parts of it, and to correct several errors, which do need to be addressed.
- By all means, anyone have a go at combining the articles, as I'd hate to see some of the information I resoursed and found go to waste. 81.86.34.245 16:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll take a look at it tomorrow --Steerpike 01:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Still waiting for you to take a look 81.86.34.245 00:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I was busy :) But I'll make sure to do it this weekend. --Steerpike 22:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Changes as of 13/03/06
In response to the recent changes made by 81.86.34.245 (and me reverting them), and the subsequent discussion to improve the article by combining the best elements of the old and new article (see above), I've given this article a new overhaul. In terms of introduction, storyline, gameplay and technical specifications, I retained most of the edits made by 81.86.34.245. They were very well written indeed! The level section however I kept to its original length. I see no use in adding this much info. We have Wikibooks to include such details. I figure that any casual user browsing this article will be swamped with enough useless game-info already (and may only be interested in sales or technical specifications) so we should do our best to limit it. Here's a full list of changes:
- Introduction, storyline, gameplay and technical specifications rewritten in accordance with changes made by 81.86.34.245
- 3rd person rewrites
- Italizing Sonic game titles.
- Removed the wikitable in the Technical Specifications. A single sentence is enough to cover those details.
- Added the "References" segment and sorted the links.
--Steerpike 23:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] External links
I have swapped the links from Wikibooks to my own wiki WikiKnowledge. This is because Master Jimbo has decided that Wikibooks can no longer host video game guides. Gerard Foley 22:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Trivia
The trivia section is out of control. People have started using it as a dump for obscure tricks that they've discovered. I've deleted the following pieces of trivia for the following reasons:
- The music of Ice Cap Zone (inspired by the Eurodance music of that era) is one of the most frequently remixed video game songs.
- This piece of trivia was originally edited for its fanboy leanings. Now that it is of a more neutral tone, it doesn’t really say anything. That Ice Cap Zone is ‘one of the most’ frequently remixed videogame songs doesn’t say a lot.
- According to the manual, Knuckles' favourite food is grapes.
- This is better off in an article about Knuckles.
- Issue #13(August 1994) of the Archie comic book features a story loosely based on Sonic 3.'
- If it’s only loosely based, then is it really of note?
- Yes.
- There is a certain way to get to the area where Knuckles presses the trigger in the first zone's boss. To do so, you must play as Tails, and defeat the boss. As the flying encasement facility approches the inside edge of the stationary platform, deactivate it. You will automaticaly run to the center of the bridge. Quickly and repeatedly tap the jump button while you are holding left on the d-pad. If done correctly you will jump off of the bridge and land on the stationary platform. Jump on to the top of the encasement facility, and then begin to fly. Press right on the d-pad. You will find yourself on Knuckles' platform This trick yields nothing.
- This would be better off on a Hints & Tips website.
There are more pieces of trivia in there that should be deleted, but my conscience is already heavy with having deleted four pieces.
The Michael Jackson section on the other hand is - I think - interesting enough to be worked into its own section of the article, if enough work goes into it.
Drumnbach 13:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- Completely agreed. A trivia section is nice if it contains four or five additional notes. This one is almost as big as the gameplay section. Keep up the good work! --Steerpike 15:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
- I split the MJ section earlier today. INVERTED 15:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- The trivia section is on the loose again. I really wish it didn't exist at all now. If there is enough info on a particular "trivia" subject in order to be considered relevant I would prefer it to be worked into the article. --Steerpike 10:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Best game ever
Sonic the Hedgehog 3: The best game ever :D
I'd have to disagree there, surely Sonic 3 and Knuckles would be better, as it contains both Sonic 3 AND Sonic and Knuckles in one! 172.159.162.5 11:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Right here, now or anytime, is NOT the time or place to be arguing about the best game. That's completely opinionative, and Wikipedia isn't a site for that.
Does anyone agree? CatMan 00:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Box art again
Seems to be an edit war over american vs european box art. needs to be resolved pretty soon. users involved seem to be User:BlazeHedgehog and User:Kevy2004. Gromreaper 15:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- When I first updated this article with cover art I chose the European box art. I don't see why the American art is better or more preferable than the other. I argued over this a while back but then somebody changed it anyway. Frankly I can't be bothered to care but for the sake of consistency: let's stick with the American art now. --Steerpike 17:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
compromise sugguestion? 81.137.159.61 13:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] proposed Trivia removal/changes
On Sonic the Hedgehog 3's hidden level select screen, the snapshots used to represent each zone are the same ones used in Sonic the Hedgehog 2's level select. Included with them is an icon for Hidden Palace Zone, which was cut from Sonic the Hedgehog 2.
Doesn't seem a major or relevant point to me, without giving more context of the significance of Hidden Palace. suggest removing
The Game Over song used in this game was carried over to Sonic & Knuckles eight months later, and then used again in Sonic 3D Blast, while Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure has a version of this song transposed up a few notes.
Can be covered by changing the... uh... changes section from:
"the end-of-zone fanfare, used in all games from Sonic the Hedgehog 3 to Sonic 2006 (excluding the Sonic Advance games)"
to:
"Several idents and themes, including the zone end and game over fanfares, that go on to be used in many subsequent Sonic games"
Issue #13(1994) of Archie Comics Sonic the Hedgehog features a story loosely based on the game.
Change to:
"Issues 33 & 34 of Sonic The Comic are and issue #13 of Sonic The Hedgehog are comic adoptions of Sonic 3"
Reportedly a large fan of the anime Dragonball Z, Yuji Naka got his inspiration for Sonic 3's 3D Special Stages from King Kai's small planet at the end of Snake Way.
First time I've heard this. is it sourced/verifiable?
After the Michael Jackson deal fell through, some elements were still left in the game. For instance, when Sonic is left in place for about a minute, he will do what looks like a MJ dance move.
Given he did other interesting moves if left alone in Sonic 1/2/CD, I think this is more a point of coincidence, unless we can source/verify this...
This would leave 5 pieces of relevant, interesting trivia, which I think is OK.
Thoughts & feelings?
81.149.182.210 00:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'll just copy-paste what I wrote earlier on my talkpage: I've cut out the entire trivia section. I saw little to no value in practically any of them. Either they were too obscure, too speculative, or better placed elsewhere in the article. Information on Wikipedia's Sonic the Hedgehog 3 page should be noteworthy, not trivial. The more curious readers have a wealth of other detailed sites at their disposal in the links section. Agreed? --Steerpike 19:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Credits
Is it really necessary to list the full credits of Sonic 3? This is not normally done on movie articles either. A short mention of the most important people involved will suffice imo. --Steerpike 20:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The barrel in Carnival Night
What's this thing about that barrel people keep inserting? I know which part of the level they are referring to but honestly I never had any problems to get past that point. Even if many gamers were purportedly frustrated with this part, I'm sure there was an equal amount of people who didn't have a problem with it. I'd like to see some credible sources regarding this claim. --Steerpike 10:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
One has to remember that this was a time before the internets were popular so the only source of infomation was via friends or a monthly magazine or two. So with no redily available solution, it wouln't strike your adverage gamer at that time as Obvious. Conan-san 12:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- In Addium: "A later level in the following game, Sonic & Knuckles, Sandopolis Act 2, would receive similar criticisms." What's the issue With Sandopolis Act 2? The Ghosts or what? Or is it the looping sand slide? Conan-san 12:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Probably the sandslides. I couldn't get past them my first few times, since I didn't know what to do (and when I did I didn't know which one went where and which I needed to take) but after that it was easy for me. Then I was mad all the time because I always took the one going to the end, not the one to the super ring =). 12.64.12.175 00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
