Talk:Sumer Is Icumen In
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sumer does mean spring in this Middle English. I don't want to see that mistake again. Make a note of it because it will be on your next test.
- I don't think you should be quite so categorical, since some scholars disagree with you. Whilst "Sumer" in ME doesn't mean "Summer" in modern English, neither does it mean "Spring" in modern English - the word extended over a longer period of time than its modern equivalent [1]. It could also mean, less definitively, "warm weather". So how about approaching this issue from the music? It's well known that the cuckoo at the beginning of its arrival in the British Isles sings the interval of a minor third; as the season progresses this interval gets progressively larger (via a major third to a perfect fourth or even a perfect fifth [2]). The musical interval f-d-f, which starts the round and recurs frequently, is a minor third. Hence we can reasonably conclude that the bird has only just arrived - it must therefore be April at the earliest, though most likely early May (and according to the nursery rhyme[3], the bird doesn't change its tune until June). Is this summer in the modern sense? Probably not; even gardeners consider summer doesn't start until 1 June (rather than on the solstice three weeks later), although May can often be really quite warm. Is this conclusive either way? Again, probably not, but I still don't think you should be so definite about it. (interestingly Delius's Cuckoo also sings a minor third – but it is after all the first cuckoo of spring). I've therefore inserted the possibility of "Sumer" meaning (early) summer or warm weather in the article. You'll probably revert, but at least I'll have tried.195.217.52.130 22:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
-
- I really don't see any reason to translate svmer as anything other than summer. According to the OED, summer "in popular use compris[es] in the northern hemisphere the period from mid-May to mid-August", and it gives no indication that the word has changed in meaning since the middle ages. And wasn't Beltane on May 1 originally the first day of summer? It seems just unbearably pedantic to translate svmer as spring, rather than to translate it as summer but leave a note explaining that at the time summer was considered to start at the beginning of May. —Angr 19:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] More Middle English pedantry
Also isn't "icumen" past tense, so that the first line should read 'Spring has come in' not spring is coming in.
- It sure is. klaus
[edit] FART?
Sometime ago i had seen "ferth" rendered as "farts", but i consulted a number of authoritative translations such as this and corrected the error, only to see the fart thing reappear again. Although this is a riddle it is an ecclesiastical song and it is highly improbable that it could be rendered as such. On Old-English dictionaries ferth = forth. Please reference every change you make, this is a very important text. If you join the discussion, please remember to sign your posts. Thanks. --Wikipedius 19:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, it is not an "ecclesiastical" song—the English lyrics are secular/profane, while the Latin lyrics are sacred text. Second, you're imposing modern prejudices in calling it "improbable". Finally, the very first link in the References section gives the "fart" translation, along with an analysis of why: postulated meanings involving jumping or bounding require an etymology from French, which though not impossible is a bit of a stretch and out of character with the rest of the song. (Note also that the phonological evolution of the two verbs on that line preserves the rhyme: sterteth/verteth -> starts/farts.) "Ferth" may mean "forth", but that's not what's written; what is in the MS is written "uerteth", equivalently "verteth", which even after allowing for variable spelling is a voiced consonant and an extra syllable away from "ferth". I'm changing it back, though I'll leave a little note about the objection. /blahedo (t) 23:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Good point indeed, i took note of it on the italian version. You seem to favor with many scholars the popular meaning of Sumer, but i wonder why a scholarly interpretation should be less favored. It is unusual for a written text of this time not to have undergone manipulations, as is the case of many other texts. As you know this happened time and time again when a monk or clerk penned down a popular rhyme or aria (the word is appropriate here:-). For example many doubt whether the Veronese Riddle, one of the earliest documents containing Italian text (9th c. A.D.) may have been corrupted by the Latin of the monk. The same objection has been raised with many more old poems once considered true originals by Romantic criticism. But then the echo-effect of Bulluc sterteþ, bucke uerteþ might not imply that the rhyme might not be semantic as well? --Wikipedius 10:59, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- The semantic argument is a tempting one, but looking through the lyrics I'm not seeing a single other word of Latin/Norman etymology; they're all good old Anglo-Saxon roots. And arguing that a Latin-literate monk might substitute a different word then suggests the further question of: what would he have been replacing, and why? An argument along the lines of "farting offended his sensibilities" doesn't work, since the point of this line of argument is that the word doesn't mean "fart"; and if "verteth" were a literate replacement for some other word meaning "jump" or the like, the monk would have been aware at least of a double entendre, since the word "fart" has been traced to Indo-European roots and thus would have existed in a form more or less like "verteth" at that time, as I understand it. /blahedo (t) 08:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Perhaps i've lost you on the etymology. The learned version is explained in the links. In my library i have found uerteth < Lat. uertit, "leap/move in rounds" (Castiglioni-Mariotti's Latin Dictionary is one of the most authoritative works). It's the animal jumping from rock to rock in large bounds. The words sound much the same, although i don't take homonimy as conclusive proof. On the other hand if the "fart" meaning was implied would have made the song funnier, wouldn't it without any need to edit it before some bishop heard it. Yes, you have a point, the humor element might be right in the double entendre. So, the fart would go in the footnote. I have two manuals of Anglosaxon literature here (Wrenn's and Oxford's), but ain't found nothing yet, but i keep reading. I suspect there may be more at my faculty's library like a monography maybe. Unfortunately what we have on the web is too little. In the meantime, we might also explain our present findings in that footnote. --Wikipedius 00:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
-
- The OED cites the disputed line as a usage example in the entry for "fart (v)". That's good enough for me. Skyraider 18:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Corrections
You're right, if a swallow does not make a summer, a cuckoo does not make spring. I made the corrections and checked the migratory pattern of the bird, and it's May-June. I have bookmarked this article and i will watch it closely. --Wikipedius 21:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Wde", spelling
An image of the original manuscript is available under the first reference link. Look at it; the word for "forest" is definitely written "wde". I don't doubt other ME sources might write the word "wude" or the like—spelling was hardly regular at this point—but in this document, it's "wde". I'm changing it back. /blahedo (t) 23:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] punctuation
The original has no punctuation other than line breaks. Here is a more plain transcription:
Svmer is icumen in
Lhude sing cuccu
Groweþ sed and bloweþ med and springþ þe wde nu
Sing cuccu
Awe bleteþ after lomb
lhouþ after calue cu
Bulluc sterteþ
bucke uerteþ murie sing cuccu
Cuccu cuccu Wel singes þu cuccu ne swik þu nauer nu
Sing cuccu nu
Sing cuccu
Pes
Sing cuccu
Sing cuccu nu
69.87.193.214 13:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] audio of words needed
There seem to be a number of online audio files of the music. But we also need audio files of the spoken words. Sung with musical accompaniment, and separately. As round and plain. In modern English, and in original pronounciation, as close as we can reconstruct it. A recording of an authentic Oxford Don? 69.87.193.214 13:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- I concur, just having what appears to be a MIDI recording does not do this song or the article justice. The lyrics are Old English and they were meant to be heard. Also, if we could get a decent recording, it could be nominated as a Featured sound. Zidel333 08:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
