Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Templates

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[edit] "Countries of...", "Countries and territories of..." and similar templates

Copied from Template talk:Countries and territories of East Asia#Solidify the Template and the talk page?:

• The Middle East one has to remain as "Countries and territories" anyway, as the Occupied Palestinian Territory (as the UN terms it) is not a country, and not part of any sovereign state, but needs to be included. That is, by the way, not an analogous situation to the question of autonomous territories elsewhere (e.g. Hong King SAR) which are recognised as part of the territory of a sovereign state. Whether the other such templates should be standardized to just "countries" or not is another question, but if so, a standardized version that suits them should not be applied to this case where it would be decidedly inappropriate and unhelpful. Palmiro | Talk 04:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standardization suggestion

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Per the above, suggest:

1. All "Countries of", "Countries and territories of" and similar templates – i.e. those templates listing countries by continent or region that appear at the bottoms of articles about countries – are named and titled "Countries of [continent/region]"
2. All these templates consist of the following sections (where members for each section exist):

v • d • e Countries of X
Sovereign states	item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link
Dependencies and/or Special administrative regions and/or other territories and/or...?	item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link
Generally unrecognized	item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link
(Something else?)	item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link · item-or-link

(...and other template formats)

Please indicate your support and/or suggestions for modifications and/or a different approach below and/or...  Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 03:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

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I must say it looks cumbersome and difficult to implement. How do you decide what sorts of autonomous territories qualify? Does Hong Kong? Catalonia? Alto Adige? Northern Ireland? Texas? Guam? Réunion? The Russian autonomous republics? Nagorno-Karabakh (OK, that might fit in as "generally unrecognized). How does the template distinguish between the different sorts of autonomy involved, and how does it associate the autonomous territories with the state they form part of? And if it does neither, is it not likely to be more confusing than informative? Palmiro | Talk 04:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess the details per template as regards what to include in each section require consensus; I'd start with the current content for each. I'd say the overriding criterion for whether or not a territory or area is included is whether or not (there's evidence that) most people generally refer to it as (if it were) a country. (Personally, I think I'd omit Catalonia, Alto Adige/South Tyrol and Texas from the examples you suggest; probably the Russian autonomous republics too.)

Apologies if the template skeletons above look cumbersome and/or difficult to implement; essentially they're no different from the template formats already used by existing "Countries of" etc templates. I included them for the sake of visualization, but perhaps that idea has backfired; in short, just imagine those "Countries of" etc templates you've already seen, but with more consistent subsections!

Thanks for your feedback, David Kernow (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, we've only heard from a small section of editors. Let's spread this info and have a discussion. -Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 21:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The current status of having each of the Countries of xxx templates being very different in name and format look unprofessional and need to be changed to a uniform style in name and format. The title of the template should be Countries of xxx and should not break down the entities into categories. All countries listed in the template should be listed on List of Countries. Any debate on the definition of what a country is and should a particular entity be considered a country should be debated on List of Countries only. Changes to templates and other pages should feed off of changes made to List of Countries. Having consistency makes Wikipeda look professional rather than amateurish.-- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 23:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Essentially, I agree – but note that the formatting of the countries' names in the List of countries is not uniform. Some are bold (sovereign states), some plain (dependent/autonomous/etc territories), some bold-italic (generally unrecognized), etc. Perhaps what might work (i.e. be generally acceptable) is a single list of countries using these different fonts...?  For instance:

Seems a little "bold" on the eye, however; maybe a different font scheme would be required...

Thanks for your thoughts, David Kernow (talk) 03:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Standardization is only a good idea if there is more to be gained from it than there is to be lost from it. This may well be the case for the Africa, South America, etc templates but attempting to impose such standardization on the Middle East template would be misconceived. I can guarantee you that if that template was amended to say "Countries in the Middle East" the Palestinian territories would be deleted from it regularly by sticklers, pedants and political zealots all of whom would be quite right to point out that it isn't a country; but the result would be that a non-sovereign territory not part of any state, with some governmental institutions, including one which issues residents with passports recognised for travel by most governments, an international calling code, a top-level internet domain, de facto membership in at least one international organization, etc, would not appear on a template where for practical purposes, it clearly belongs. Standardization that results in inaccuracy or loss of information does nothing to make Wikipedia look more professional; quite the opposite. Palmiro | Talk 04:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally I wholeheartedly agree, having been the person to try the "Countries and territories of" names et al a few weeks ago. I guess, though, that having witnessed some of the stickling/pedantry/zealousness (cf Template talk:Countries of Europe and elsewhere) I'm trying to see if is possible to accommodate a (super)majority of opinions. One consensus that did seem to emerge was the use of "Countries of" but with non-sovereign territories clearly indicated as such. To me, this suggests one basic division (if no more): between sovereign and non-sovereign territories ("countries") in each template. So, to use the Palestinian territories example, would you feel able to accept a (say) "Countries of the Middle East" template that listed Palestinian territories on a separate line, prefixed by a header such as "Non-sovereign" or the like...?  Combined with an explanatory note on the template's page plus semi-protection, I'd hope something of that nature would be generally acceptable and able to withstand passing stickling/pedantry/zealousness...  Yours, David (talk) 08:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I sympathise with your position, but really my view would be that the Middle East template isn't broken, so why fix it? Your solution might (but also might not) work, but in any case would be rather more complicated than the current version, which clearly does work. Also, I suggest that any further discussion about the Middle East template take place on its talk page, rather than here, as it is the one specifically involved and interested people are more likely to come across it there. Palmiro | Talk 19:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)