Disputatio:Arbor natalicia

E Vicipaedia

Alexanderr: the usual way to say this would be arbor + an adjective meaning "of Christmas." the problem with this, as David Morgan has pointed out in his lexical notes, is that natalis and natalicia, the natural adjectives to use here, could also mean "Birthday tree." Nevertheless, this seems to me the best way to go: no one gets trees for their birthday, except for Jesus. So no chance of confusion! ;) --Iustinus 04:17, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Lol, sounds good to me, but there is still so much left to translate - and I'm not even sure if the first sentence is right. But hopefully I'll get it translated. Alexanderr 04:28, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Re "No one gets trees for their birthday, except for Jesus." Except that everybody now does have a birthday tree; see my comments below. IacobusAmor 16:58, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Index 1 angelus/a 2 Praesepe 3 Arbor Natalis = 'Birthday Tree' 4 1 000 000 aut 100 000

[recensere] angelus/a

Can angelus be made feminine? I ask, because in my experience, it is usually not a male angel on the top of most people's christmas trees.--15:10, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

All biblical angels are males. Maybe the angellike thingies atop Christmas trees are angeluli, angeloli, or some other diminutive. IacobusAmor 16:48, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Early Christian representations of Angels are usually read as "sexless." We do tend to think of them as male and female now, and there is the name Angela. But I don't know how kosher it would be to use angela here. --Iustinus 02:06, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

What if we italicized it or something...like: "angeli, verior angelae, solent poni in summam arborem"?--Ioshus ^(disp) 02:17, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

"Angeli, saepius feminino aspectu (quasi essent angelae)"? ;) --Iustinus 02:19, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Ita! =] --Ioshus ^(disp) 02:30, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

[recensere] Praesepe

I'm not sure what praesepe means, but it should say that a nativity scene is often displayed near the presents. Or at least that is what I got from the german wikipedia. Alexanderr 16:06, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

According to Vulgata: Et peperit filium suum primogenitum, et pannis eum involvit, et reclinavit eum in praesepio: quia non erat eis locus in diversorio. - Praesepium (here) or praesepe (dictionary) is "Krippe", the thing out of which animals eat, but was used to put Jesus in instead. That is why in Germany the nativity scene is called "Krippe" and displayed in churches and households. A direct translation would simply be praesepe/ium. Or we need a translation for nativity scene, "nativitas" only wouldn't do it. --Alex1011 17:12, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

In Italian they still use presepe to mean "nativity scene." --Iustinus 02:05, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

[recensere] Arbor Natalis = 'Birthday Tree'

Arbor Natalis is the obvious Latinization of 'birthday tree'. A birthday tree is the tree particular to one's birth, according to a system presumably set up in the past few decades. To learn which tree is your birthday tree, google for "birthday tree" and check certain of the 25,000 sites that turn up. According to the first three sites, the birthday tree for people born between 23 December and 1 January—including, presumably, Jesus of Nazareth—is the apple. IacobusAmor 16:58, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Look above, Iacobe, at Iustinus' first post. And he said there could be "no confusion" =].--Ioshus ^(disp) 19:01, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Hey, he's not confused, and we're not confused: the confused ones are the people who put up fir trees for Christmas, instead of apple trees! IacobusAmor 19:37, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I'm even weirder, my tree is a small palm tree. We already had it in the house, so we figured, why buy a new one.--Ioshus ^(disp) 20:19, 18 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Oh bloody hell! --Iustinus 10:06, 19 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Vox Latina "carmen natalicium" habet id designans quod Anglico sermone christmas song, Germanico sermone Weihnachtslied appellatur. --Alex1011 10:11, 19 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Linguae Romanicae arbori natali similia favere videntur: Árbol de Navidad, Sapin de Noël, id:Pohon Natal, Albero di Natale. --Alex1011 10:23, 19 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Well, Arbor natalicia probably would be better, though classically speaking it still means "birthday tree." [BTW in English the usual expression for Weihnachtslied is the archaic "Christmas Carol"].

I'm not sure those Romance expressions are really comparable, given that even if the word for Christmas etymologically means "Birth[day]", it now only means Christmas. --Iustinus 23:26, 19 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

The OED says Christmas descends from late Old English Christes maesse, meaning 'the mass or festival of Christ'. It has no connection with birthday. The birthday-word that seems relevant here is Nativity (with a capital N for the pious). Maybe it suggests that a Latin calque for "Nativity tree" would be OK for "Christmas tree," but it should probably be distinct from "birthday tree," for the reason cited above. IacobusAmor 00:40, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

And who says Christmas carol is archaic? I've heard the word several times this week! IacobusAmor 00:41, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Well I originally wanted to use something along the lines of Arbor missae christi, knowing where the word christmas comes from, but whatever is decided on is fine by me.

Christmas comes from Christ-Mass, yes, but in the Romance languages the word is derived from Natalis or Nativitas vel sim. I'm surprised IacobusAmor even brought that up. --Iustinus 02:45, 22 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Well, all I'm saying is that Natalis can mean "pertaining to a birth(day)" or "pertaining to Christmas", whereas Navidad, Noël, Natal, Natale only mean Christmas.

Right: in Spanish, for example, the only person who rates a navidad is Jesus of Nazareth: everybody else has to make do with a cumpleaños. That is: Navidad means only 'Christmas'; it's not a general word for 'birthday'. This point could support an argument for restricting arbor nativitatis to 'Christmas tree' and arbor natalis to 'birthday tree', though the phrases are so similar that people may well confound them. IacobusAmor 03:06, 22 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Ah, arbor natalis would nicely parallel signum natale, which we might propose for 'birthday sign (the sign of the zodiac under which one has been born)'. "Quid est tuum signum (natale)?" IacobusAmor 03:26, 22 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Quaererem: Quid est tuum sidus? (signum sideris?) Inveni: Quid est tuum caeli signum? Alia lingua, alia latinitas. --Alex1011 09:51, 22 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

As for Christmas carol, what I mean is that the word "carol" is never used in English anymore except in the context of Christmas. You can't say "Have you heard Gwen Stefani's latest carol?" unless you're talking about a holiday album. --Iustinus 02:03, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

Generally, yes: but it's prudent to avoid absolutes like never. A single counterexample kills any brave never, and we never (hehe) know when one will jump out of the bushes to do the deed. IacobusAmor 03:06, 22 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

PONS habet "arbor natalicia" et "festum Domini natalicium" --Alex1011 14:01, 20 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

[recensere] 1 000 000 aut 100 000

decies centena milia aut centena milia? --Alex1011 21:37, 19 Decembris 2006 (UTC)

-> centena milia --Alex1011 18:49, 27 Decembris 2006 (UTC)