Wikipedia talk:Spellin an grammar

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Table o contents 1 RRSSC 2 The Gran Debate 2.1 AITHER: We follae the RRSSC tae the letter 2.2 OR: "Oniething gaes" 2.3 OR: We wirk out a seistem o our ain 2.3.1 aa or aw 2.3.2 ou or oo 2.3.3 -y or -ie 2.3.4 ee, ei, or í 2.3.5 ei, ea or ae 3 Whit wey the RRSSC is the richt chyce. 4 place names 5 Grammar 5.1 The Latinate passive 6 Aw kin kynd 7 Thank you

[edit] RRSSC

(Taen ower frae the demo Scots wikipaedia on Meta. -- Derek Ross 21:07, 25 Jui 2005 (UTC))

"Ye need ti mak ful uiss o Scots gremmar, an whaur that pairt o the Scots lexis derived frae Anglo-Saxon disna whiles yield the sitable word, ye hae ti dae exactly whit Scots an English haes aye duin, an that’s uise a Clessical ane"
That is from the committee report, Derek. I disagree with that strongly. English has overborrowed from Classical sources, much to the worsening of our tung ("Pulmonic", anyone?). I think new words, like Mendor's "foreleuk", are wonderful, and easily understood. I have a whole ream of English replacements for Latinate words in English that, I feel, are in need of a changing. Unfortunately, even my homeborn word for "cygnet"- namely "swanling"- brings my fellow Englishmen out in giggles. I don't see why. They are so corrupted by the classical languages that they have lost all feeling for their own. English fails to grow organically from English roots, as new words invariably are formed from Latin, Greek or French. To my mind, that makes English worthless and a con. I feel that in Scots, which maintains many good Germanic words English does not, we have the chance to be slightly freer, and will be able to construct words more straight-forwardly. What do ya reckon? BryanAJParry

Juist tae pit on record: there ar specific bits o the RRSSC at A dinnae gree wi:

• spellin 'tae' as 'ti' (A think ye shuid write out wirds as fu as possible)
• spellin 'dinnae' etc. as 'dinna' (ditto)
• Inglis '-y' no aye becomin '-ie' (seems inconseistent; <y> tae me aaweys means [ai] cep in <ay> whaur it's [ei])
• spellin the /u/ sound whiles as <oo>, whiles as <ou>

This last wan: A gree wi the minoritie opeinion gien at the end o the report, tae aye scrieve it <ou>. (A gree wi spellin 'ceitie' etc as 'cítie' forbye, juist acause A think it leuks nicer an keeps the spellin o siclike wirds closer tae thair roots; but I daursay that uisin accents disnae hae the support that <ou> wad so I wisnae gaunae push for it.)

Gin the majoritie opeinion here is that we shuid haud tae the RRSSC an no differ frae it (for the sake o haein a conseistent orthographie), A'll stop uisin ma ain spellins. Gin that isnae the majoritie opeinion, we'll hae tae hiv a debate on whit spellins we uise (or, for that maitter, on whither conseistencie atween different authors is in fact important — A think it is but A ken that isnae aabodie's opeinion). — Mendor 21:09, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Mendor, A gree wi yer spellin thochts as ootlined abuin. A think thae is the kin o divergences fae the report at A am speikin aboot. BryanAJParry

na / nae -na wis the negative pairticle, adjective an adverb in aulder Scots. It wis cairiet ower intae modren Scots as the negative pairticle an uised bi the likes o Ramsay, Fergusson, Burns, Scott an Stevenson. E'en Northren writers lik Skinner, Ross, Beattie, Burness (Rabbie's seicont cuisin), Murray, Symon an Caie uised it.

In the saxteent century nae for the adjective stairtit tae kythe. It's nou the ordinar form for the adjective but the adverb is nae north o the Tay an no sooth o't.

Seein that -na haes serred weel as the negative pairticle for mair nor sax-hunder year whit for chynge it nou? A jalouse the -nae form aiblins cam aboot wi the dwinin o ken o tradeetional Scots leeteratur aboot the end o the aichteent century.

Jimmy 10:45, 9 Augist 2005 (UTC)

Fair eneuch. Seems like this is ae pynt whaur you, an the RRSSC hae the same conceit, man, <grin>. -- Derek Ross 14:57, 9 Augist 2005 (UTC)

Fair dos (tho the'r somebodie here frae north o the Tay that aye says no raither nor nae — mynd you, Dundee isna that faur north o the Tay! an A did spend a hail laid o ma bairnheid in the Kinrick o Fife...) Mendor 17:30, 9 Augist 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Gran Debate

We need tae tak a view on whit spellin we'r gaunae uise fir scrievin in this Wikipedie. Tae my (Mendor's) mynd, the'r thrie roads we can gang doun:

[edit] AITHER: We follae the RRSSC tae the letter

that is, we juist tak the Report an Recommends o the Scots Spellin Comatee an uise thair gydelines

Obviously onything gaes isna an option whaur the naitur o the project is tae pit things ower tae fowk. Ocht written in a wey that's fickle tae read kin o defeats the pynt o its ain ettle. Scots micht no hae a spellin that's staundartised lik in English but we shoudna be blate aboot admeetin tae this an acceptin it as a fact. Fowk haesna been teached tae write Scots sae will approach it in differin weys. Whit's maist important is that that whit is written is fameeliar an easy tae read. Fowk wad thole a bittie variation if it disna hinder ease o readin.

A dout maist fowk interestit in uisin a Scots Wikipedia wad be fameeliar wi the likes o Burns an fergusson an fae this hae a bit grundin in tradeetional writin. O coorse thae chiels wisna ower fashed aboot lattin fowk see the richt Scots soondins o wirds, an at the time naebody readin Scots wad thocht tae soond about the English wey, an likewice dead, sleight an light etc. This o coorse wadna be true the day whaur the Scots soonds is scomfisht ablo English spellins. But thir twa, an thaim that cam efter, did uise mony tradeetional Scots spellins for unnerlyin phonemes that wis uised whan writin wirds that didna hae close English cognates an thir conventions can be applee'd conseestant tae thae wirds wi close English cognates athoot haein tae invent ony new anes, whit tae the maist pairt is whit RRSSC reccomends. Shuirly it's only fair tae pynt oot ither decreeptions o approachin spellin e'en if its only thaim that's mynt tae redd tradeetional practice an no invent onything new, e.g.

• A grundin in the phonology an tradeetional weys o spellin Scots can be fund in the SND [1]
• A cutty, but no aye conceestant, descreeption o tradeetional spellin conventions can be fund at SLDL [2]
• A lang but weel-wrocht descreeption o conceestant application o siclike can be fund at Scots-Online [3]

Prentit dictionars that can be gotten is the CSD fae SLD [4] but mynd this dictionar deals wi baith aulder an modren Scots, an it's modren Scots that fowk nou speaks sae haud wi wirds an spellins that's ocht modren Scots – that's efter aboot 1700.

• The Scots School dictionar, nou the Essential Scots Dictionary [5] is awfu guid an aw acause it disna hae sae mony variants but isna aye conceestant aither. It haes English tae Scots an aw.
• The SND – the mither o aw Scots dictionars can be fund in the DSL [6]. Mynd this is twa dictionars, the DOST an the SND, sae haud wi the SND bi walin "SND and SND Suppl" in the caw-doun menu. Bi walin "Full Entry" ye're for ordinar gien a better ootcome nor whan walin "Headword Form".
• The Online Scots Dictionary [7] haes a spellin guide, an juist gies the ae heidwird, an aiblins dialect variants whaur the soondin wadna be predeectable fae the ae spellin. It haes English tae Scots an aw. This is awfu guid as a thesaurus but the defineetions isna awfu lang sae cross-referencin the SND micht help. Gaun bi the Leaf through function [8] it leuks awfu like the heidwirds haes aw been raiglarised.

At the lenth an lang o't wad it no be the uisers that decides whit wirks best? Wi this project thare's a rare opportunity tae test siclike wi haein different fowk writin airticles anent maist awthing unner the sun - an a guid bit aboot whit's faur ayont it. Wi time fowk will learn whit seems tae wirk best an is maist preferred. A jalouse mony conteebutors will hae thair ain pet airticles that thay'll haud an ee on an redd a bittie efter ithers haes eikit tae thaim. A process o learnin fae ilk ither will come aboot - an at the meenit we're juist at the beginnin o't. Ettlin tae be ower strict micht pit fowk aff nou an dae mair hairm nor guid at the lang hinderend.

Jimmy 23:08, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)

[edit] OR: "Oniething gaes"

that is, we let aabodie uise thair ain preferred spellins (an that wad allou fir a bit o leewey in the Doric vs Lallans vs Ullans vs Shaetlandic debate).

[edit] OR: We wirk out a seistem o our ain

This wad probablie be based on the RRSSC. But we'd hae tae wirk out a wheen outstaundin problems, outlined ablo.

[edit] aa or aw

in wirds like "aabodie" an "fitbaw"

That's vouel 12 in the IPA chairt for Scots an seein that the twa tradeetional weys o writin this, forby a’, wis au an aw wi au for ordinar uised at the stairt an in the middle o a wird an aw at the end o a wird. A dinna see muckle pynt in introducin a new spellin aa for the unacceptable a’ whaur the existin aw wad dae fine. Seein that a body reads a wird fae left tae richt aw (all) wad be conceedert bein at the end o the wird.

Jimmy 23:27, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ou or oo

in wirds like "Hou noo broun coo"

[edit] -y or -ie

history or historie?

[edit] ee, ei, or í

meenister, meinister, mínister? tradeetional, tradeitional, tradítional? eediot, eidiot, ídiot?

Uisin ei means takkin the spellin that wis tradeetionally uised for tae spell vouel 3 for vouel 2 (11 at the end o a wird) in the IPA chairt for Scots, an that juist maks things mair complicate. A jalouse it cam aboot fae the dominance o fowk that's dialects merges vouels 2 an 3 as /i/.

Acause this is vouel 2, is it no mair wycelike tae spell it the wey vouel 2 haes tradeetionally been spelt? That is ee. Whit for mak awthing sae heiliegoleirie whan heeligoleery – that's a hail sicht easier tae read – will dae fine?

Jimmy 23:38, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ei, ea or ae

For ordinar uised for vouel 3 in the IPA chairt for Scots soondit /i/ or /e(:)/ gaun bi sindry wirds an dialects. For thaim that haes /i/ ei an ea is fine, an theoretically its Scots we're dealin wi sae thaim that haes /e(:)/ wad juist learn that ei an ea is soondit thon wey, whit is o coorse different fae ee that's aye /i/. If fowks wants tae pit ower the /e(:)/ soondin thay could aye juist swap the ea aboot an uise ae whit wadna mak readin ony mair deeficult acause the wird can be recogneesed easy eneuch. A wheen wirds that aye haes /i/ is whiles spelt wi ie as in the bien chiel scrieved.

Jimmy 23:50, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Whit wey the RRSSC is the richt chyce.

I'm strongly fur the RRSSC (an fur ony successor tae it). Here's whit wey.

1) "We follae the RRSSC tae the letter" -- The RRSSC haes bin pit thegither by fowk that ken fit they're dain fur the maist pairt. It's nae perfick an there's a couple o pynts that I dinna like (ye've mentioned a puckle above). A'm shuir that maist fowk wuid feel the same aboot different pairts o it. Houaniver gin Scots prose is tae gang onywey in Scots eddication, prose screiveners maun rally roond ae standard. Let's rally roond this ain till a better comes alang.

2) "Oniething gaes" haes bin tried on the English Wikipedia whaur American/English spelling are baith allooed. It leads tae pyntless argument in the lang run (an mebbe een in the short run). A ken sith A'm sorry to sey that A've taen pairt in it. Forbye I hae nae doot that it'll lead tae accusations o Doric bias or Lallans bias at sim pynt. Laistly we maun hae uniform spellin gin we want tae be a richt encyclopaedia.

3) "A seistem o wir ain" is ower muckle wark. Oor aim is tae screive an encyclopaedia an that's a muckle job in its ain richt. The RRSSC has aready daen a deal o wark on spellin and there's little need fur us tae dae the wark ower again. Let's juist uise whit they've daen. Oor aim sould be tae mak a wheen o encyclopaedia airticles wi as little distraction as micht be -- nae tae mak yet anither Scots spellin seistem.

That said, there's nae doot that fowk winna screive the RRSSC wey whan they contribute. A ken am nae een daein it masel. Bit the raison is juist that A'm ignorant o it. Nane o us wis taucht Scots spellin, sae we canna be expeckit tae get it richt. Bit A div think that we soud adopt RRSSC as the Wikipedia standard an aim tae correct spellins tae that standard as we ging alang. -- Derek Ross 17:45, 25 Jui 2005 (UTC)

A maun say, that's gey compellin raesonin, Derek. The'r things A dinnae gree wi about the RRSSC an aa (like haein -y endins whan the sound isnae [aɪ] — tae my mynd it shuid be -ie apart frae wirds like why, forby etc.), but it's important fir us tae hae a seistem an ye ar o course richt tae say that the'r nae need tae reinvent the wheel. Mendor 19:00, 25 Jui 2005 (UTC)

Richt, whit sey we gie it anither pucklie days (a wik?) fur ither comments an, gin naebody objects, mak RRSSC the tentative policy on spellin? -- Derek Ross 19:34, 25 Jui 2005 (UTC)

Sounds guid. Gin the situation chynges later on, or a new standard comes up, we can aye re-open the debate -- we'r no settin onything in stane, but it'll be guid tae hae something tae wirk frae. Mendor 11:08, 26 Jui 2005 (UTC)

Richt eneuch. -- Derek Ross 16:23, 26 Jui 2005 (UTC)

Acause A hae ower muckle time on ma haunds the nicht A'm gaun throu the interface pittin aa yer owersettins tae the RRSSC — howp ye dinna mynd — Mendor 19:49, 26 Jui 2005 (UTC)

Na, na, that's fine. We need as monie een on the job as we can get. Ye're daein fine. Aince ye're feenished mind an sauf a PHP copy o whit ye've daen. Juist click the PHP airtin at the top o the page an mak a copy on yer ain machine. A'm gaun oot this aifternuin tae size up a hoose for pentin sae I'll juist contribute as and whan. -- Derek Ross 20:03, 26 Jui 2005 (UTC)

A think the report is maistlie guid, bit A wid lik tae see some smaa chynges tae it for here. A mean, we shid say "the Scots commatee report is the way tae gang, bit the follain 12 (or whitivver) pynts shid be taen in mynd by fowk at wint tae contribute here. Some examples: A think "tongue" is a bad spellin for Scots (nay, Inglish tae!), an it wis ae spellin at wis brocht intae the Inglish leid in the 15t yearhunner by addled Screivers! Hoo can it be a guid thing to tak an unetymological spellin lak this ane, a spellin at wis added tae Inglis lang efter The Saxons o the north hid becam Scots, an say "This is gey richt Scots, mannie"? Bit mebbe this is isnae here or thaur. Well, it is MY opeinion that we shid adopt the commattee's ideas, bit hae a smaa- gey smaa- leet o acceptable dialectal wirds. Thir wirds is anes at cannae be subsumed in the ae spellin. An aa the wirds in ae byleid, bit nae anither, at ar nae a muckle leuk-alike o their partner in anither byleid shid forby be allo'd; "still" and "lown", micht be a exemplar. BryanAJParry

Anither exemplar I jist noticed in the report is "gang". It lists "gang" and "gae" for the present tense, bit "gaun" and "gaein" in the present participle. Weel, aa ma sources tell me at "gaein" is a wee bit o a "Inglish-ism"; it says at "gaun" an "gangin" are the forms tae uise. A think "gangin" HIS tae be in the leet o "acceptable variances". BryanAJParry

Bryan, I'm fine wi that. Ye're speikin aboot wee differs i the vocabular that a body micht chuise as a result o the byleid that they ken or the braidnes o their speik an that disna worry me ower much. Words fae ony byleid shuid be taen on athoot argiment. Whit dis worry me is differs i the spellin whaur it's the same word bit wi anither wey o sayin it. Aiblins the RRSSC haesna got it aa richt bit its nae up tae us tae fix it. Gin we div mak chynges an ither fowk disna gree wi them, whit authoritie div we hae that alloos us to say that we're richt an they'r wrang ? Nane. Sae we juist hae arguments ower the chynges or the contents o the leet stead o arguments ower the airticles an that's nae a great improvement. Better that we uise RRSSC as is. Whit dae ye say ? -- Derek Ross 16:11, 29 Jui 2005 (UTC)

Aye. --Colin Angus Mackay 17:51, 29 Jui 2005 (UTC)

A say yer richt, Derek. A think, gin A can say it, the comatee disnae hae the richt itsel tae exclude the "-ae" spellins, lik "nae". A think thir dead guid spellins. Bit tae the pynt gin I may; A gree wi ye, an A think the comatee's report shid be the thing inalow (??="underpinning") aa o whit we scrieve. BryanAJParry

[edit] place names

Ah wis screivin a template (Template:Cooncil areas o Scotland) fir the Cooncil areas o Scotland for tae pit some airtins on ilka page. Housomeiver, ah divnae ken the richt spellin fir monie o thae places in Scots. A want tae mak siccar it is richt afore makin pages fir ilk place. Can a body help put the richt spellins? Ta. --Colin Angus Mackay 15:09, 26 Jui 2005 (UTC)

That shuid be hit duin but some ither bodie micht want tae check ma owersettin — Mendor 16:04, 26 Jui 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

[edit] The Latinate passive

that is, Latinate verbs endin in -te no takkin oniething tae mak the passive voice (RRSSC: "A appreciatit that", but "That wad be appreciate")

Shuid we be uisin it? A like it masel. The RRSSC says it's nou conseidert "auld farrant" an "maistlie charactereistic o leiterary prose" but disna actually say "dinna uise it". Mynd you, the'r limits -- the pass. part. o "create" is aye gaunae be "creatit"; A cuidna write "It wis create oot o plastic" or whitiver. Mendor 19:41, 29 Jui 2005 (UTC)

aa langage his leimits. A say gang for it! Some auld-farrant things is better acause they are "truer" Scots, gin ye ken whit A'm sayin. BryanAJParry

Aa dae ken whaur eer nowlidge o Latin cums frae, bit the "passive voice" hes nithin tae dae wi' the "past tense". The passive voice is whaur the subject o' a sentence is the yin whae gits the action (the gless wus brok'n bi the loonie), the active voice is whaur the subject cairies oot the action (the loonie broke the gless). In the lallans thet Aa wus brung up wi' the past historic & past participle o' verbs wi' the infinitive endin in -te substituted the "ed" o'Inglish wi' "it", eg. matit, hatit, creatit, slatit, etc. Brian Nixon nixonjb1@aol.com

A ken fine the differ atween "past tense" an "passive vyce". See the "appreciatit"/"appreciate" disteenction abuin. A'm no shuir o the pynt ye'r ettlin efter makkin? Tho A gree that it disna wirk wi aw words. Ye juist wadna say It wis hate/create/slate -- ye'd say (an write) It wis hatit/creatit/slatit, aye. But ye micht say something like "Aw his gear wis confiscate [no necessarily confiscatit] bi the shirrae", micht ye no? Mendor 17:11, 7 Februar 2006 (UTC)

PS Walcome tae the Wikipædia! Howp ye hing aboot. We'r aye efter mair native spaekers.

A'd add that we were aw brocht up tae spik the wey that ye said but fit the RRSSC wis seyin wis that it was awricht tae write "confiscate" (tho a bit auld-farrant) stead o "confiscatit" gin it wis bein uised as a passive because "confiscate" wis a word wi a Latin origin. It's ane o the differs atween written Scots an spaken Scots. -- 204.209.24.2 23:41, 7 Februar 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aw kin kynd

Whit's wrang wi uisin a guid Scots eediom? Whit for dae fowk think written Scots shoud follae the rules o staundart English? Onywey here a puckle examplars fae the SND.

• Per. 1857 Jas. Stewart Sketches 55:

She’s a’ kin kind o’ groceries, Sugar, cinnamon an’ spice.

• Lnk. 1827 Motherwell Minstrelsy 71:

Wi’ a’ kin kind of things. [9]

• Rxb. (Teviotd.) 1825 Jam.2:

“Nae kin kind o’ cornie wark has crossed his craig for twa days”; he has taken no food for two days. [10]

• Slk. 1807 Hogg Mountain Bard 124:

Thousands of steids stood on the hill, Of sable trappings vaine; And round on Ettricks baittle haughs Grew no kin kind of graine. [11]

• Fif. 1827 W. Tennant Papistry Storm’d 17:

That temple’s flures and wa’s are lined — Wi’ leifsum pictures a’ kin kind . [12] 84.135.250.5 11:24, 22 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Whoever created this Scots Wikipedia... thank you for making me laugh :)

I can clearly hear Rab C Nesbitt talking in my head as I read the articles... EuroSong