Talk:Algonquian languages

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New sections at bottom, please.

Contents 1 potato and tomato 2 Edited to add Teacha'chi link to text. 3 Old comments that were deleted by the Yematasi guy 4 Spiritual practices 5 Article content review. 6 Two points for Kalumnu 6.1 Re: Teachachi & Epacawani 6.2 Re: Algonquin & Algonquian 6.3 Re: Wiyot & Yurok 7 Placenames and their meanings 8 Suspicious vocabulary 8.1 English words of Algonquian origin 8.2 Algonquian names for animals 9 family tree list & dialects?

[edit] potato and tomato

Elsewhere in WP there are contradicting entries for the origins of (e.g.)potato and tomato. Should be clarified (from Germany)

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate says both entered English through Spanish, with the ultimate origin of tomato being from the Nahuatl and potato from the Taino...both of whom were located considerably south of the Algonquians. -- Nunh-huh 01:33, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate says both entered English through Spanish via Mexico, with the ultimate origin of tomato being from the Nahuatl and potato from the Taino...both of whom were located considerably south of the Yematasi Adawa, who traded with the Athabaskan Atawa, who traded into Mexico.

...who didn't even have potatoes[www.genres.de/IGRREIHE/IGRREIHE/DDD/59.pdf], nor, probably, tomatoes[1]. This is part of Taino and Aztec heritage, not Algonquian. - Mustafaa 04:47, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Edited to add Teacha'chi link to text.

Noticed other references to Teacha'chi and Arapaho/Arapatasi trade group. I believe that they were a trade partner within the Athabascan trade confederation.

[edit] Old comments that were deleted by the Yematasi guy

Yes, the "potato" and "tomato" etymologies are wrong - these words are attested in Spanish well before any European reached an area with Algonquin speakers, who moreover did not as far as I know have tomatoes to begin with. I've deleted them. (from Arabic)

"The medicine culture has been taken from Medicine Givers known generally as Wanagi Cha (Spirit Speakers) and has been passed from generation to generation along familial lines. Forgetting most of the lore and leaving behind what the teller did not like. Consequently the "religious" aspects of the Algonquian people as well as most of the Native American nations within North America have been lost to all but a few Wanagi Cha. There are perhaps seven or eight Wanagi Wakan K'cha or Medicine Teachers (Spirit Counsellors) on the whole continent." - This sentence no doubt has a place somewhere, but it doesn't belong in an article on the Algonquin languages. More worryingly, I'm fairly sure "Wanagi Wakan K'cha" is a Lakota, and thus non-Algonquin, phrase - in which case it reaally doesn't belong here. I'll delete it and leave it in the comments.

"There were three major trade groups within North America:

1. Yematasi Odawa
2. Epacawani Odawa
3. Teacha'Chi Odawa"

I strongly suspect that's false - the Wiyot and Yurok were single, rather small tribes, not trade groups - but I'm not 100% sure. Anyone know?

"Teacha'Chi" is wrong too! Or at least, it's not a Yurok term - Yurok for "Yurok person" is 'oohl, for "speak Yurok" is saa'agoh. Whoever added the medicine/native names stuff didn't know what they were talking about. I'll delete them.

[edit] Spiritual practices

An anon user copied this entire article into Algonquin and copied that entire article here. I've reverted both duplications. In the course of doing so, however, I noticed that the section on Algonquian spirituality is here, although it relates to the people generally, not just the language. I'm moving that paragraph to Algonquin. JamesMLane 02:59, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article content review.

As an elder of the Algonquin counsel and Baying Wolf Clan, I have been asked by Cam Huard (a Wanaghi Cha) of the same clan , in Calgary Alberta to review this article as well as the Algonquin page. As Algonquin, Algonquian, Algonkin, Algomiquan, .... are all interchangable I don't know why you have to distinguish between them. The people of the Algic Nations do not distinguish between language, culture, history, community, tribe, clan, or society; these are European influences for which we want nothing to do with. We are all aniishnabe or the first nations. I hope that after I finish my review and present it to my lodge, society and tribal counsel, then present what we wish to be reflected here that you add to but not diminish our findings. If you wish to contact me my email address is

mailto://hanatanu@netscape.com

With deepest respect,

Elmer Weaselskin

In response to this kind offer to provide information from the most knowledgeable sources, I have sent Elmer Weaselskin this email:

Dear Mr. Weaselskin,

Thank you for your message on the Wikipedia about the Algonquin and Algonquian articles. The information you refer to would be very valuable. I look forward to seeing it. At Wikipedia, however, there is no equivalent of a tribal counsel, so there is no one person who can assure you that the article will respect your wish that your findings be reflected. There are thousands of people involved. Any one of them can make a change to an article. (Any one of the others can then change it back, of course.) The only thing you can do is to submit the information and see what happens.

If you encounter any difficulty in incorporating the information in the article, there are many people at Wikipedia who will be glad to help you master the editing techniques. Feel free to send me an email if you have any questions.

With regard to having two articles, Algonquin and Algonquian, it is a common practice on Wikipedia to have one article on a people and another on their language. For example, there are articles on “Japanese people” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people) and “Japanese language” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language). It appears to me that someone tried to follow this pattern and thought that “Algonquin” referred to the people and “Algonquian” to their language. Perhaps the latter article should be renamed “Algonquin (language)”. The advantage of having separate articles is that the reader can more easily find a specific point of interest.

Thank you for willingness to take the time to help us improve these articles.

I hope people don't think I was being too negative at the beginning of the message, but I thought it was only fair to warn him in advance that the Wikipedia process can be disorderly at times. JamesMLane 04:24, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Elmers' actual email address is mailto:hanatanu@netscape.net I have tried to contact him via the .com and received a mailer daemon until I went to netscape to see how their email/site was configured. He has replied after a few attempts on my part to get it right. If he doesn't reply let me know and I can get a message to him here at the library. Kalumnu 20H12m Thu 12 Aug 2004 (CNSC)

[edit] Two points for Kalumnu

• The Aleut and Athapaskan languages are in no way Algic or Algonquian. The last time this claim was made, [2] Teachachi and Epacawani were supposed to have been Wiyot or Yurok; why the sudden change? And where do these two names come from? They certainly aren't Wiyot or Yurok words.
• Both times, the claim was added that "There were three major trade groups within North America: 1.Yematasi Odawa, 2.Epacawani Odawa, 3.Teacha'Chi Odawa." Can you back this claim up with sources? I haven't heard of any such suggestion. - Mustafaa 23:25, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

- Mustafaa 23:25, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and about "Algonquin" vs. "Algonquian": "Algonquin" is a single language/tribe, and is a member of the much larger "Algonquian" family, which was named after it, and ranges from Mikmaq in Canada to Arapaho. Perhaps it shouldn't have been named after Algonquin (just as Semitic shouldn't have been named after Shem), but the usage is well-established now, for better or worse. - Mustafaa 23:51, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Teachachi & Epacawani

The terms Teachachi & Epacawani dont appear to be terms commonly used to name/describe any language or ethnic group in the Americas, as far as I can tell. The author seems to be mistaken. Yes, supplying sources would be most helpful. - Ish ishwar 08:14, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Algonquin & Algonquian

"The family is named for Algonquin (of the Ottawa River valley), the language of this family which the French studied intensively in their early contacts with native peoples. They recognized the closeness to Algonquin of other languages of the family with which they gained familiarity. The spelling Algonquian reflects this origin; some scholars have preferred Algonkian as the English spelling (both forms have the same pronunciation), but historical precedent is on the side of Algonquian. (Campbell 1997:401, n. 133)

"The name Algonquin is said to be from Maliseet elakómkwik 'they are our relatives (or allies)' (Day and Trigger 1978:792)." (Campbell 1997:401, n. 136)

Compare with the OED etymology:

Algonquin < French Algonquin < maybe contracted from French Algoumequin (17 century) < perhaps near Micmac algoomeaking or algoomaking 'at the place of spearing fish and eels'. (OED)

Bibilo:

• Campbell, Lyle. (1997). American Indian languages: The historical linguistics of Native America. New York: Oxford University Press.
• Day, Gordon M.; & Trigger, Bruce G. (1978). Algonquin. In B. G. Trigger (Ed.), Northeast (pp. 792-797). Handbook of North American Indians (Vol. 15) (W. C. Sturtevant (Ed.)). Washington, D. C.: Smithsonian Institution.
• Simpson, J. A.; & Weiner, E. S. C. (1989). Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford: Clarendon Press. (Online version).

[edit] Re: Wiyot & Yurok

Concerning etymology of Wiyot (a.k.a. Wishosk) and Yurok (a.k.a. Weitspekan).

This below is from Campbell (1997):

"Wiyot is from wíyat, the native name for the Eel River delta, which also referred to one of the three principal groups of Wiyots (Elsasser 1978:162).

"Yurok is from Karuk yúruk meaning literally 'downriver'. The Yurok traditional name for themselves is Puliklah (Hinton 1994:157), from pulik 'downstream' + -la 'people of', thus equivalent in meaning to the Karuk name by which they came to be known in English (Victor Golla, personal communication)." (Campbell 1997:401, notes #131 & 132)

"The connection of Wiyot and Yurok in northern California (which together were formerly called Ritwan, after Dixon and Kroeber's [1913] grouping of the two as one of their more remote Californian stocks) with Algonquian was first proposed by Sapir (1913) and was quite controversial at that time (see Michelson 1914, 1915; Sapir 1915a, 1915b; see also Chapter 2), but the relationship has subsequently been demonstrated to the satisfaction of all (see Haas 1958; Teeter 1964a; Goddard 1975, 1979, 1990). Before 1850 the Yurok lived on the lower Klamath River. The Wiyot (earlier called Wishosk) lived in the Humboldt Bay area, in the redwood belt; the last fully fluent speaker died in 1962 (Teeter 1964b). Many scholars have commented that although Wiyot and Yurok are neighbors in northern California, they seem not to have a closer relationship with each other than either has with Algonquian...." (Campbell 1997:152).

I provide everyone with a biblio:

• Campbell, Lyle. (1997). American Indian languages: The historical linguistics of Native America. New York: Oxford University Press.
• Dixon, Roland; & Kroeber, Alfred L. (1913). New linguistic families in California. American Anthropologist, 5, 1-26.
• Elsasser, Albert B. (1978). Wiyot. In R. F. Heizer (Ed.), California (pp. 153-163). Handbook of North American Indians (Vol. 8) (W. C. Sturtevant (Ed.)). Washington, D. C.: Smithsonian Institution.
• Goddard, Ives. (1975). Algonquian, Wiyot, and Yurok: Proving a distant genetic relationship. In M. D. Kinkade, K. L. Hale, & O. Werner (Eds.), Linguistics and anthropology in honor of C. F. Voegelin (pp. 249-262). Lisse: Peter de Ridder Press.
• Goddard, Ives. (1979). Comparative Algonquian. In L. Campbell & M. Mithun (Eds.), The languages of native America: Historical and comparative assessment (pp. 70-132). Austin: University of Texas Press.
• Goddard, Ives. (1990). Algonquian linguistic change and reconstruction. In P. Baldi (Ed.), Linguistic change and reconstruction methodology (pp. 99-114). Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.
• Haas, Mary R. (1958). Algonkian-Ritwan: The end of a controversy. International Journal of American Linguistics, 24, 159-173.
• Hinton, Susanne F. (1994). Flutes of fire: Essays on Californian Indian languages. Berkeley: Heyday Books.
• Michelson, Truman. 1914. Two alleged Algonquian languages of California. American Anthropologist, 16, 361-367.
• Michelson, Truman. 1915. Rejoinder (to Edward Sapir). American Anthropologist, 17, 4-8.
• Sapir, Edward. 1913. Wiyot and Yurok, Algonkin languages of California. American Anthropologist, 15, 617-646.
• Sapir, Edward. (1915)a. Algonkin languages of California: A reply. American Anthropologist, 17, 188-194.
• Sapir, Edward. (1915)b. Epilogue. American Anthropologist, 17, 198.
• Teeter, Karl V. (1964)a. Algonquian languages and genetic relationship. In Proceedings of the ninth international congress of linguists (pp. 1026-1033). The Hague: Mouton.
• Teeter, Karl V. (1964)b. The Wiyot language. University of California publications in linguistics. Berkeley: University of California Press.

Cheers! - Ish ishwar 02:34, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)

[edit] Placenames and their meanings

It would be interesting to list all the Algonquian name and their meanings. A paragraph listed some of them already, but a list with meanings alongside would be much better. Kowloonese 08:30, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This would be interesting, especially for placenames that are not obviously or widely known to be of Algonquian (or Indian in general) origin. For example, just yesterday I realized and quickly confirmed that the city of Muncie, Indiana, comes from the Munsee Lenape. The giveaway clue is that Muncie is in the Delaware County. It may be trickier to give the meanings of placenames. Quite often, I think, there is an official story about what a placename means in its origin Indian language, but such stories are often wrong or questionable. And hey, this is my first ever edit in Wikipedia!

Pfly 18:07, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to provide etymology for all the things with Cree and Ojibwe names in Wikipedia by putting the information in the article. By looking at the What links here for Cree and Ojibwe, you can find most of them. But, I haven't studied any of the other Algonquian languages and I don't have text resources for them. But if you've got a list for those two languages, I can help. --Diderot 20:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suspicious vocabulary

This voc was processed by anon who put in many nonsense under vfd now. the vocab of orig contributor estored to article (overlaps with the below). Mikkalai 07:47, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I removed the animal names since I can't confirm them. The English words list is interesting and the ones I recognise I can verify. We can reasonably identify English words that derive from some Algonquian language.

There is no such thing as a single "Algonquian" language, so regardless of their origin, the animal names are inappropriate here. If they come from one or more specific languages, they should go on those pages. Diderot 11:05, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, at least for the "Algonquian names for animals", many are Algonquin written without the accent marks, such as:

* Wawackeci - Deer <= in Algonquin, Wâwâckêci

The problem may be that Algonquian and Algonquin are being confused. If you don't mind, I'm moving the animal list to the Algonquin language page, less a few of the non-Algonquin names. CJLippert 13:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the deleted "English words of Algonquian origin", I understand why they were removed. For example, "Chicago" comes from the Potawatomi Zhgagozh (Stink-grass, i.e. Wild Onion, c.f. Ojibwe Zhigaagwanzh) and "Wampum" from Narragansett or other related New England Algonquian language meaning "White-String [of beads]", opposed to the "Suki", the "Black" Wampum, which was really bluish purple. CJLippert 13:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] English words of Algonquian origin

• chicago (chee-kaw-goh) skunk cabbage
• pecan ("paykan" - "nut" )
• pone (as in corn-pone) from Powhatan appoans "bread"
• raccoon (arahhkun) scratches with its hands
• skunk (shekãkwa) spray of smelly water
• squash (vegetable) (askootaskwash) fruit of health/life
• succotash (msikwatash) food mixed together
• tamarack, a species of larch and its wood
• tomahawk (tomah'hauk) sharp biting stick
• wampum (wapapyaki) trade good

[edit] Algonquian names for animals

• Adik - Caribou/Reindeer
• Adjidamo - Squirrel
• Amikwa - Beaver
• Esiban - Raccoon
• Cangweci - Mink
• Cigosi - Weasel
• Mahigan - Wolf
• Mahto - Brown Bear, Grizzly, or Kodiak
• Makwa - Bear
• Moz - Moose
• Nigig - Otter
• Pijiw - Lynx
• Winack - Marmot
• Wuchak - Groundhog
• Wawackeci - Deer
• Wadjack - Muskrat
• Wabicese - Marten
• Wapiti - Elk

[edit] family tree list & dialects?

hi. i am the one who cluttered the article with all of the dialect names. what do you think about this? it is a rather long list, perhaps a bit scary? should we prune the tree? i like knowing all of dialect names since it is always usually hard to differentiate between dialects and languages and the traditional terminology often has multiple names that sometimes subsume smaller groups. any thoughts/suggestions? your thoughts are appreciated greatly since i am thinking about what to do with other language families. thank you — ishwar  (SPEAK) 20:34, 2005 May 23 (UTC)