Talk:Antonia Bennett

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Contents 1 Notability 2 vandalism 3 Problem with references 4 False information 5 Fails WP:MUSIC 6 Great Music 7 Non-deletion review 8 Speedy deletion

[edit] Notability

It is hard for me to believe that there is anybody on the face of this planet who has never heard of Tony Bennett and his daughter Antonia Bennett! I think they are the greatest male and female voices ever. Apparently Frank Sinatra agree’s with me too! Let me guess, you have also never heard of Frank Sinatra? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnyajohn (talk • contribs) 22:44, September 25, 2006 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, references need to be included in an article, to prove notability. If someone is genuinely famous, their name will have appeared all over the press. Simply include a few of those articles in the References section. I recommend also reading the Wikipedia policies concerning Verifiability and Biographies of living persons. --Elonka 18:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

IP address 69.226.94.170 keeps on vandalizing the page and writes very vulgar things. The vandalism includes calling Antonia Bennett "Jenna Jameson" who is a famous porn star. Changing the age of 4, to 16. making vulgar olral refrances, changing "David Award" to "Rodney Allen Rippey". etc. This person should be blocked from Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.108.46.97 (talk • contribs) 20:01, October 3, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with references

This article badly needs additional sources. I checked out the NY Times article that was cited, but it turned out to actually be an article about some other singer, which included a short mention of Bennett: His special guest, Antonia Bennett, who conjures echoes of Billie Holiday and Rickie Lee Jones (with a hint of Betty Boop), joins him for two numbers, including a playful "Baby, It's Cold Outside," and then that small mention has been repeated in many other locations. I tried searching for other references but couldn't find much aside from routine performance announcements, plus there's another "Antonia Bennett" who seems to be an athlete [1]. I also checked out the "David Award" claim, and the only info I could find was the organization's press release, with no further press coverage.[2] In terms of the Wikipedia article, I'd like to see additional references proving the singer's notability per WP:BIO, otherwise the information about Antonia should probably be merged into her father's article. --Elonka 07:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] False information

Not true, I went to the New York Times website and she is mentioned several times. There is also a photograph of her holding the David award in the New York Times. She is also mentioned in many, many other newspapers and online articles. "Elonka" obviously has some personal vendetta and is obsessed with trying to degrade Antonia Bennett. The press release you mentioned is from a chese company, NOT "Italo-American National Union" the oldest Italian-American fraternal organization in America. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.108.46.97 (talk • contribs) , 02:10, October 11, 2006 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I'm actually trying to do you a favor, by engaging in a good faith discussion rather than just nominating this article for deletion. In any case, if you have other genuine references, I'll be happy to review them. Could you please provide dates and titles of the NY Times articles, and cite the dates and names of a few of the "many, many other newspapers"? Ideally, they should be articles about Antonia Bennett, confirming that she is a notable singer. Just having her name isn't sufficient though. For example, the claim of a reference at the "whitehouse.gov" site. When I took a look, what this seems to refer to, is nothing more than Bennett's name appearing on a Kennedy Center guest list [3]. That is not sufficient proof of notability, please provide other references that she is famous. --Elonka 17:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I found four listings in addition to the single sentence cabaret article of Feb 8 2002. The others are subscription only:

• August 27,2000 Article about Tony Bennett and his fmaily.
• Feb 15, 2002 appears to be a summary of the same article in the Cabaret guide for the week
• Sept. 15 2002 a gossip column about a party at which she sang.
• June 17, 2003 "Tony Bennett and his daughter Antonia."

If someone with TimesSelect cares to check out whether these are more substantial than they look, great. Septentrionalis 17:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fails WP:MUSIC

There is no assertion of a major concert tour, charted hits or anything of the like, so we are left with an assertion of multiple press coverage. Including all sources found be Septentrionalis, none feature Antonia, which is the requirement. We don't need to see the whole article to know that someone not mentioned in the first paragraph is not featured. The "David" award is simply not prestigious enough to qualify her on that basis. This is an article about a not-yet-and-may-never-be. Robert A.West (Talk) 16:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. To my knowledge, there are no recordings whatsoever, let alone charted hits. --Elonka 23:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I did the honors. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great Music

According to Frank Sinatra her father is the greatest singing legend of all time, she has been singing for over 20 years, she is all over Google. I saw her perform on the Today show and The Regis & Kelly Show. If you look on google you will see she sings all over the country. Amazon sells the CD she did with Tom Wopat and another website states her new CD is coming out soon. Plus, she is very young to have accomplished all this! I believe the Today show, The Regis & Kelly Show, The White House, New York Times, Tony Bennett, Tom Wopat, etc. are all not crazy for supporting her! It is sad that Ms. Elonka has nothing more to do with her time then to make a career out of misinformation and attacking people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.6 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Non-deletion review

This is, I believe, a classic example of why AfD is problematic. Elonka pointed this out on my talk page a few days ago, but I was in Germany and had no access to Wikipedia for a few days, or else I would have certainly voted to remove. I spoke at length on the phone with the person who originally posted the article, who admitted that he was her manager (then denied it, when I told him that violates our rules) and her close friend (then denies it when I told him that also violates our rules). He admitted he was doing it to get her publicity (then denied it, when I told him that this is against our rules). Having said all that, I will ask the people who voted to keep this exactly what is she famous for? Is she famous for being mentioned in the New York Times, or is it because she is the daughter of X? Or alternately, is she famous in her own right, and not just aspiring to be famous. So, I ask again, what is she famous for? Danny 11:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with Danny, that this article appears to be obvious self-promotion, and that the individual does not pass WP:MUSIC. There were also problems with the AfD, such as that at least one "delete" comment had been removed [4]. I recommend another AfD with wider participation and more careful monitoring. --Elonka 16:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion

This is a clear Speedy Deletion candidate, AfD non-withstanding. There's no assertion of notability. The citations provided are for her father and mention her in passing, and WP:MUSIC is simply not met. I've been part of a band that tours, but that doesn't mean I meet WP:MUSIC. Being the daughter of someone who is guest at the white house is very different than being the guest yourself, so that just doesn't match up. Wikipedia is not a democracy, so I encourage the people who will cite the AfD to review the actual policies in play before citing the Keep vote. I don't imagine this will be a popular action, but I really feel it's the right one. We must be consistent in our application of notability guidelines or we will give an inadvertent advantages to borderline 'celebrities' who have friends or fans who are persuasive or know how to 'game' Wikipedia. I will leave this talk page here because I anticipate some discussion. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 13:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• This article was speedy-deleted on September 26 [5], then re-created, then it went through an AfD with a "Keep" vote. I disagree with speedy-deleting it again, especially considering the "Keep" on AfD. Now, in the long run, I *do* agree that the article should be deleted, and that the subject does not meet the standards in WP:MUSIC, but let's go through the proper process to do it. This is not such a severe case that we need WP:IAR. I think a second AfD with wider participation and more careful monitoring will easily take care of the problem, and put the matter to rest. --Elonka 16:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

  Respectfully, I don't think another AfD would be appropriate. Far from ignoring all rules, I'm acting on the clearly established guidelines and policies relevant to this situation. A Deletion Review would be the better medium for any further review, but I think a speedy delete was merited. I'll even userfy the pre-delete content of the page to somebody's userspace if they want to figure out a way to convert it to something that does not meet WP:CSD, but this was a legit speedy. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

  Followup: You mention that it had a keep 'vote'. Wikipedia is not a democracy. When something meets CSD, it gets asploded, whether or not there's an outcry. I don't mean to sound as if I've gone rouge, but the userbox fiasco and fair use imagery in userspace battles established that public outcry doesn't win over doing the right thing. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you for your reply. I do try to be aware of as many Wikipedia policies and guidelines as I can, though it seems I still manage to run across new ones from time to time. I am very interested in increasing my knowledge of how to deal with situations such as this one... Could you please point me to the relevant guidelines and policies that state that it is okay to speedy-delete an article that has passed an AfD with a consensus of "keep"? Thanks, --Elonka 17:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not a big fan of wiki-lawyering and I as I mentioned, the precedent has been clearly set that doing the right thing trumps an opposing "voting bloc". The WP:CSD policy of A7 is clear: No assertion of notability for a performer/person = article deletion. Being the daughter of someone famous does not automatically confer notability. When you examine WP:MUSIC to see what extended criteria is applied to musicians who need an article on their own merits, there are clearly defined milestones, none of which were met. As such, it is my responsibility to act on the situation as I feel appropriate. The Deletion Review process exists to provide oversight to my actions, and if I am mistaken, it will be overturned. If someone can generate afresh or modify the existing article (which i have offered to userfy) so that it asserts the notability needed, then that would be super fantastic number one. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• If anyone wants to take the next step, I think that step should be a deletion review of the speedy deletion. But that should only be done by someone that actually wants the existing text restored as the article. Someone who intends to write an encyclopedic article based on the reliable sources that they think they can find would probably have no use for the old text. I don't recommend starting the next step with an undeletion. However, I think a better step than speedy deletion would have been a deletion review of the keep result from AFD. GRBerry 17:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

• Nah, this is the best solution for the least wasted time. If someone wants to re-create it, bring the reliable sources that can support the article's material and then we have something. Until then it's just all wasted time. It was deleted perfectly according to policy. - Taxman ^Talk 20:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)