Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unitary Islamic Bosnia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus, keep. Johnleemk | Talk 07:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unitary Islamic Bosnia (Note: name of the article was changed into Bosniak nationalism)

as stated by previous users on article's talk page hellenica 05:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. The concept is not recognised nor in use. There is no political party that makes this supposed movement a part of its platform. A google search for "Unitary Islamic Bosnia" in English, Bosnian, and Serbian, comes up with zero results, aptly illustrating the fact that this alleged movement is unknown even locally. The sources used to justify the alleged movement nearly all come from highly controversial radical serb sites with obvious agendas (i.e. SrpskaMreza), or succumb to logical fallacies. It is a clear case of "partisan screed, or opinion masquerading as fact", which is listed as one of the basic reasons why an article should be deleted. For instance, the article states that the political goal "is often hidden behind the pro-European and pro-democratic rhetorics of the Bosniak politicians..." - the article's lone author clearly making an opinionated judgement of the "real" intentions of politicians who promote the exact opposite of this alleged policy. Furthermore, none of these "ethnic Bosniak politicans" described in the article would ever agree to be supporting this idea. There is absolutely no valid reason to keep this article; the topic is not grounded in reality and is a clear attempt to insert a highly controversial POV and bias into wikipedia. The few valid facts that the article might have should be integrated into existing and undisputed articles where they would belong. Asim Led 06:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. As per original nom of speedy delete (this should only be considered ONE vote for deletion - not including my nom herein) and for very reasons outlined by above user. Neutral/Keep Willing to assume good faith for the time being and allow author to verify the data, but seems as if the author is already involved in other dubious articles. Article appears to be false material meant to defame and demonize an ethno-religious group. hellenica 06:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC) I have attempted a drastic alteration to POV, and in its current incarnation (with a bit of cleanup and sourcing) is far more acceptable. Articles do exist pertaining to irrendist and nationalism movements of other ethnic groups in the Balkans, excluding this article would then be POV in and of itself. Care should of course be exercised to only include verifiable fact. It should also be noted that both User:Alihodza (Bosniac POV) and User:Bongo11 (non-Bosnian POV) have only been created in the past 24-hours and only have edits pertaining to this article and AfD; possible sock-puppetry in action. hellenica 15:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Excuse me: I am not a sock puppet. I have been a non-registered wikipedia user for a long time and only decided to work on the basis of my login after Jimbo's recent policy changes. Also, what on earth is this label of Bosniak POV that you give me? I do not see the world in ethnic terms, nor should you. Plus, I am not a Bosniak. I do not assume you are an apologist for Serb genocide just because of your Helllenic handle. Grant me the same respect please. Alihodza 21:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

this user had only 1 previous edits -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 21:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - the article appears to come across as factual, but only until you read the 3rd paragraph does it begin to sound inappropriate. The 3rd paragraph reads as if the article is attempting to propagate some sort of opinionated conspiracy. I suppose if that were deleted the article would be acceptable, but since I'm not an expert on this, this decision should be relegated to more knowledgable editors. --HappyCamper 06:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have removed the 3rd paragraph. Nikola 06:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I...um...what they said. JHMM13 (T | C) 06:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - for all reasons above. Interestingly the article appeared while high profile negotiations are taking place in Bosnia and Herzegovina regarding constitutional changes that need to re-define the structure of the country. Highly politicised and factually wrong. --Dado 06:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes Dado this article is certainly part of their Greater serbian conspiracy! now they want to influence negotiations through Wikipedia! It should be deleted!!

• Keep - The name of the article was changed into Bosniak nationalism, and I do not think that anybody would deny that such nationalism exist. If we have articles about Greater Serbia and Croatian nationalism, why not about this one too? Is it a taboo or what. Also, I wrote this article for the sake of the neutrality policy of Wikipedia, since much is written on Wikipedia about Serbian nationalism with the purpose to demonize Serbian people. The Greater Serbia article is much larger POV that this, but I do not deny that some small number of Serbs support this idea. Who can say here that only Serbian nationalism exist, and Bosniak one not? For the NPOV policy, both nationalisms should have their own articles. As for my sources, I posted them here: Talk:Bosniak nationalism. Can you explain why these sources are not credible? You just used word "not credible", with no explanation why. For example, here are excerpts from the "Islamic declaration" written by Alija Izetbegović, a former Bosnian president: [1]. What is wrong with the credibility of this source? PANONIAN (talk) 09:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the fact that it doesnt mention Bosnia or Bosniaks once could pose a problem? Asim Led 18:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. Read Dado's comment. --Emir Arven 10:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per reasons above -- Astrokey44|talk 11:00, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. This is simply an inflammatory piece of Serbian propaganda. The original concept that was the originall title does not exist as per the talk page for the piece, and later edits are an attempt to imply that Bosniak political parties want a mono-ethnic "Greater Bosnia". Whilst there is a mountain of evidence to suggest the reverse is true, the author has been unable to demonstrate that mainstream Bosniak parties actually espouse this view. Vague references to "Bosniak nationalism" from mostly Serbian propaganda sources are not enough to make the case. Alihodza 11:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

this user had only 1 previous edits -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 21:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Proces of unitarization of Bosnia is underway. The rest (see above) is Muslim propaganda. Bongo11 13:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

this user had never edited before -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 21:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• • Please remain civil, "propaganda" is a loaded term, POV is better. hellenica 18:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. it is present and it sucks (Bosnian nationalism)--TheFEARgod 15:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Please remain civil, "suckage" isnt very nice. hellenica 18:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete Fabrication, the concept is not recognised nor in use. --HarisM 16:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - the article is now renamed and speaks about a different concept, which is recognised and in use, so that this vote is no longer valid. Nikola 08:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment, Nonsense. No proofs (concept never recognized) and as author said, just a crap. --Emir Arven 13:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. The comment is not "no longer valid", it is still perfectly fine. One look at the time of the comment shows that the user decided to vote for deletion even after the move was made. Your cheap attempt to invalidate opposing votes has been noted. Asim Led 20:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. This is a perfect example of using Wikipedia for spreading lies. An article about Bosniak nationalisam would be more than welcome, but then with a neutral content. Namek 17:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • User's earliest edit is 1/4/06, almost all edits having to do with similar topics. Namek, feel free to contribute to the article from a Bosnian perspective. hellenica 18:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Indeed, but are there any contributions of which u could say that they contain incorrect information? Namek 17:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
      • I havent looked at the articles in detail because that isnt the point. The issue here for AfD is your short lifespan and concentration on one topic area. hellenica 20:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
        • My short short lifespan can be explaind from the fact that i have just recentley created an Wikipedia account. My presence on Wiki is much older, and as u can see every dag I contibute to more subjects.

• Strong delete It started off as one sided and POV (along with a lot of fantasy). It is still POV - just 2 sided POV.Dejvid 18:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - this vote is non-actionable. The only reason for deletion given by this user is that the article is POV. Per Wikipedia:Deletion policy, Problems that don't require deletion include "article is biased or has lots of POV". Nikola 08:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. Bosniak nationalism? does such a thing exist? no it does not! and it is a totally ridiculuos attempt to remove attention from serbian nationalism by insolently accusing bosniaks of the same thing. Bosniak/bosnian authorities or goverment has never expressed any nationalism, as far as I know it is the serbian jugoslavic goverment who are the ones accused of ethnic cleansing and agression on countries in the balkans. All bosniaks did during the war was to defend Bosnia from being split up between neighbouring countries. And all bosniaks do after the war is to keep the country together. Therefore such a thing as bosniak nationalism does not exist, if you doubt please then look at the war datas from the war and you will see that bosniak civilians died 30 times more than serbian or croatian civilans. STRONG DELETE. Damir Mišić 19:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete After reviewing the exchange on the talk page, seems like a clear candidate for removal, not to mention a dumping ground for exciting competing balkan political passions. Ugh. Eusebeus 19:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep. It exists and this is a base for explaining it to the world.It`s one of the reasons for war in B&H. --CrniBombarder!!! (†) 20:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• What? Look again what you wrote and then look all facts that exists, all books... and i don't speak this on base of readings books but on that that i stayed all 4 years of war, and war DIDN'T started becuase som Bosniak exstremism. Just see what Karadjic said... " Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and the Muslims into annihilation...". Your comment is non sense. --HarisM 23:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Well, wasn't he right? They did took Bosnia to hell and the Muslims into annihilation. Nikola 06:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• So you agree with Radovan Karadžić, the most wanted man in Europe, accused for genocide by International courte? --Emir Arven 12:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Reductio ad Hitlerum. I agree with that, I don't agree with him on everything. Me, you and him all agree that he is accused for genocide by the ICTY. Nikola 09:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep - I wanted to vote delete but have then checked whether there are such articles about various nations, and there are: Nationalism#See also lists Arab Nationalism, Japanese nationalism and Nationalism in the United States, among others. So if they exist, this article should exist too, if it's currently POVed it could be NPOVed (hopefully). An article being POV is not a reason for its deletion. Nikola 06:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. According to this user's logic we should also have articles on "Fur nationalism" or "Nationalism in Liechtenstein". Just because there are articles about nationalism among some nations doesn't justify articles about nationalism among all nations. Asim Led 20:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. We surely should have "Fur nationalism" or "Nationalism in Liechtenstein" if they are as notable as Bosniak nationalism is. For example, if they were used to start a war with 100,000 casaulties. Nikola 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Because this is largely unsung and important topic, and we need a series of articles on this (not to delete the only existing article). If we delete this one... well, then it would be only fair to grant a quota for every nation: say nation XYZ puts a veto on articles A, B, and C, hence we delete those articles. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 14:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Dado is removing internal links to the redirect to this article (see [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] and [9]), which are all articles which logically should have them, to the point that currently there is no Wikipedia article that links to it (but I am just about to change that). I see this as an attempt to rig the VfD voting process, as people who are interested in the topic but don't follow VfD won't even know about the article and so won't come and vote. I suggest that, because of this, at least Dado's vote shouldn't count, and maybe vote process should last three days longer than it usually does, so that effects of this are reduced (Dado removed the links on 7th). Nikola 08:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Or we can view it as I have helped repair those articles by removing term that is clearly disputed (at least until it is decided if the term "Unitary Islamic Bosnia" should remain on this Wikipedia). Your attempt to make a political issue of this voting is not wellcomed. Your attack on my intentions and my right to vote and be equally respected here have been noted as a personal attack. It seams to me that you are more inclined towards rigging anything since you are bringing it up. Voting typically lasts 7 days for any article (per HappyCamper). I don't see why would this case would be any different. --Dado 18:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Some of the links have been removed again, this time by Asim Led. I strongly suggest that his and Dado's vote should not count because of this. Nikola 06:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
      • I strongly suggest that this user, as usual,should not be taken seriously seeing as his objection to the perfectly reasonable removal of a term pending deletion arises from his own personal POV in this debate rather than some concern over wikipedia ettiquete. Asim Led 06:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
        • I strongly suggest that this user should be beaten with a clue stick, preferably over the head. You are trying to create impression ("pending deletion") that the article will certainly be deleted and removing the links to it, to make other people think that way. That is precisely the reason why they should not be removed. I returned the links again. Nikola 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Nonsense. It seems that just Serb hard-core nationalist users who already had many conflicts with other users vote for keeping this article. As the author of this article (called "Unitary Islamic Bosnia" in the first place?!) said, it was just a crap. Now people who followed him voted for the crap. Why? I explained their motive in the discussion page. The others who voted for the crap gave unreasonable explanations talking about possibilites not reallity. They lost their credibility, showing nationalistic motive, not scientific approach. --Emir Arven 13:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. It seems that only Bosniak hard-core nationalist users who already had many conflicts with other users vote for deleting this article. Nikola 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment Except that seven of the people who voted for deletion aren't Bosniaks. Asim Led 22:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete - Propaganda without encyclopedic value. This is pure politically-motivated absurdity. --demicx 14:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

COMMENT: I just want to reminder here that AFD is NOT A VOTING, as it's been asked on IRC for votes -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 20:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. WP:NOT original research; this article is, and will likely remain so. The Land 20:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Why do you think that this article is original research? Nikola 06:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm assuming because he believes you have yet to present any real proof of its validity (perhaps because you haven't). Asim Led 22:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. — SasaStefanovic • 21:33 10-01-2006

• Keep. This article needs a lot of work but the checking that I have done has discovered some Bosnian politicians who have made arguments which are along these lines. For example Alija Izetbegovic opened a branch of his SDA party in Sandzak outside Bosnia in 1990 and "argued that should Serbia and Montenegro decide to unify in some future new federation or confederation, the Moslems of the Sandzak would demand both cultural and political autonomy" (Broken Bonds by Lenard J. Cohen, p. 144). I have also seen characterizations of Izetbegovic's earlier writings such as the Islamic Declaration which are of the nationalist kind. David | Talk 20:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Alija Izetbegovic's "Islamic Declaration" does not mention Bosnia or Bosniaks once, while the Sandzak comment in no way supports the alleged "irredentist" nature as it has nothing to do with territorial ambitions seeing as it took place at a time when all the regions were one country.. Asim Led 20:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Remember children, there can be no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic societies! Alija's book is an example of Pan-Islamism. If that is the only book that shows some traces of Bosniak nationalism, you might have a point. That is not the case. Nikola 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• What part of Islam being a religion and not a nationality don't you understand? If you want to mention Izetbegovic's early writings as an example of pan-Islamism go ahead, but trying to portray a theological discussion that doesnt mention Bosnia or Bosniaks once as an example of so-called "Bosniak nationalism" is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Asim Led 22:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. First, Islamic Declaration has nothing to do with the subject. Noel Malcolm explained in his book "Bosnia: A Short History" (Chapter "Bosnia and Death of Yugoslavia: 1989-1992") that the book has nothing to do with neither fundamentalism nor nationalism. He explained how Serb propaganda took same quotes from the context (there you can read some examples) trying to present this book as something it is not. For instance the main part of the book is about moral values in Islam. It is generally about muslims all over the world. The second thing is that the user who first created this article as "Unitary Islamic Bosnia" has himself stated that "This article is crap" [10] because he thought that Serbs were demonized in every discussion. So it was his little revenge. --Emir Arven 23:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Noel Malcolm's writing on the Balkans are known as propaganda. Nikola 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• By whom? Who said that? Radovan Karadžić or Slobodan Milošević? --Emir Arven 17:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete This is serbian fasizam and as far as I know, wikipedija don´t support fasizam!!!!!!Dr. Muu 11:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Only edits of this user before the article was listed for deletion were his user page, uploading of three images, neither of them used anywhere, revert war on Albanians and Talk:Albanians. Nikola 08:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
    • However, he's also a significant member of the bosnian-language wikipedia community. In the vote on Serbophobia, a similar situation occured with a Serbian user who only had a handful of interwiki edits but had his vote counted. I don't see why this should be any different. Asim Led 22:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. The user who originally started this article has himself stated that "The article is crap" and created as a form of revenge to heated debates on Serb articles.[11] Asim Led 19:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. This and following comment have been placed on the top of this page, out of established practice on AfD, obviously in hope that people who come will see them first and vote on that impression. I moved them below. I again suggest that this user's vote should be disregarded because of this. (Dr. Muu did the same, but he is a newbie so it doesn't apply)
    • My vote was the first on the top of this page. As far as I'm aware, moving a page to a new location as soon as its brought up for deletion isn't exactly an established practice on AfD either. I merely added a comment to my original vote to reinforce my point following your bad attempt to save an inherently POV article. As for your pathetic attempts to have my perfectly valid vote discounted because of an alleged agenda, you shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house - and you clearly do. Asim Led 22:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The quote is taken out of context. The user wrote The article is crap, as most other articles related to Bosnia and Herzegovina (this country is a lost case for the goals of Wikipedia). Apparently, he refers to state of the article after your edits and Dado's edits (you are responsible for that situation in BH-related articles). Anyway, he voted KEEP on this very page. Nikola 08:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
    • You forget to mention that right after he noted that the article was "crap" he explained that he created it as a form of retribution to percieved bias against Serbs elsewhere on wikipedia. And what "situation in BH-related articles" am I responsible for? Getting them featured on the front page? What exactly have you done to improve the state of BH-related articles? Better yet, what haven't you done to make the situation worse? Every BH-related article you have touched has turned into an edit-war. From being struck down in your corrupt bargain-like nomination for administrator due to extreme bias and nationalism to runing everything you touch, you are not one to talk about responsibilty for the current state of balkan-related articles. Asim Led 22:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Though the page has been moved, the situation reamins relatively unchanged. Despite this, supporters of keeping the article (nearly all of them users from the Serbian language wikipedia) claim that it should be kept considering the presence of other "(people name) nationalism" articles on wikipedia. Ignoring for a second the giant logical fallacy in this argument (Should wikipedia also have articles on "Fur nationalism" or "Nationalism in Lichtenstein"?), or the fact that all such articles about nationalism in the region were created by these same Serbian users, it should be noted that a google search for Bosniak nationalism finds less than .5% of the total number of sites a similar search for "Serbian/Serb" nationalism does, while a serbian language search finds a whopping one article (a wikipedia discussion page). No matter how persistently its twisted or presented to appear acceptable, this was and still is a poor attempt to force POV into wikipedia. I thus hope that well-meaning members of our community will join the effort to not let Wikipedia's credibility be ruined by inherently biased and irrepairable articles put forward by proponents of the by now infamous Serb radicalism. Asim Led 20:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Some users here said that Bosniak nationalism doesn't exist. An example of it which recently stirred much controversy is a statement by Bisera Turkovic, Bosnian ambassador to the US, and one of the founders of Bosniak SDA, together with Izetbegovic. She said that "it will take time, but people in B&H will certainly stop calling themselves Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks and they will all inevitably become Bosnians"[12]. (If you don't understand how is this a statement of Bosniak nationalism, you should note that "Bosniaks" actually means "Bosnians" and hence Bosniaks speak, not Bosniak language, but Bosnian language. Naming of the language is intentionally chosen as a step towards this goal.) I am adding this in the article at some of the places where citations are needed. Nikola 09:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You are again spreading incorrect information, as you did before and do now in Bosnian-related articles. I have just read her statement. First she said it was her personal opinion. Second, she said that Bosnia should follow USA model. It means that Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats should identify themselves with their own country Bosnia and Herzegovina as Americans do identify themselves with USA. Also, she says every man has right to preserve his/her ethnicity, religion, culture etc. Third, this is actually argument against "Bosniak nationalism". If someone says that Bosniaks should call themselves Bosnians it is not Bosniak nationalism, it is anti-Bosniak nationalism. Bosniak doesnt mean Bosnian. I will not comment the crap about the language and your visions. --Emir Arven 18:00, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak means Bosnian. And the language of Bosniaks/Bosnians has always been Bosnian Damir Mišić 20:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Once in the past it meant. Nowdays, no. --Emir Arven 21:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes. Saying that when outside of the country people will present themselves as Bosnians instead of Bosniaks and then making sure to clarify that this is your personal view rather than a political policy is a wonderful example of Bosniak nationalism. Give me a break Smolenski. Asim Led 22:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Mystache 20:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.