Talk:Atlas (mythology)
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ok, in most of the greek mythology i've read, it says nothing of Perseus turning Atlas to stone with Medusa's head. Could someone please tell me where it says that happened?? marie16
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[edit] Link to maps
I think there should be a link to article about maps.
I remember references to Atlas saying that it was a common misconception that Atlas carried the Earth on his shoulders, and that it was the heavens which he carried, which was what I recall reading myself (and which makes more sense imho). Now this page says it was both. Can someone verify or refute this? -- SvdB 13:12, 2004 Nov 4 (UTC)
[edit] Atlas Holds up the Sky
Svdb is correct: Atlas was doomed to hold up the sky. But the heavens, even more than the earth, were classically conceived as a sphere or spheres, and in works of art it was common to depict him holding a globe marked with constellations, not continents -- which were mostly unknown to the artists in any case.
There may always have been a degree of ambiguity as to whether Atlas stood somewhere on earth and held up the sky from inside, or whether he somehow stood outside and carried the universe on his back -- or picturing him the second way may just have made for better iconography. But it was the star chart that first started to be called an atlas after him, and later that name was extended to almost any collection of maps.
People have the idea that Atlas holds up the earth from seeing him depicted with a globe on his shoulders without realizing that it was originally the celestial sphere. And eventually that confusion and the extension of the common noun led to him being depicted with the now more familiar terrestrial globe on his shoulders.
--Americist 22:19, 2005 Jan 13 (UTC)
- what? --161.97.96.12
- Well, if you ask most people what Atlas was made to hold up, they will say the earth, as most images show him holding the globe, however, he was really forced to hold up the sky, and classical art showed him holding a sphere of constellations. Eventually people started showing him holding a globe, leading to the misconception.
[edit] Etymology of Atlas
The etymology of Atlas is uncertain, contrary to what the article said. An Indo-European etymology that I've seen for Atlas is that it supposedly derives from PIE *tel-, "to lift, support". No etymology has been "canonized" yet, and the etymology is unknown, or at least disputed. Some tried to connect it with some North African words also, but that is considered very unlikely.
I see that linguists seem to be "divided" on whether Atlas derives from PIE *tel (in which case Atlas would literally mean "The Upholder", "The Bearer") or whether it is pre-Indo-European.
The last word for now on the etymology of Atlas is what the American Heritage Dictionary 2000 edition says: that Atlas "perhaps" derives from PIE *tel-, but that this is "unlikely". Alexander 007 02:17, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- There are many possible etymologies.
- I suppose that Telêpylos, capital of Laestrygonians, perhaps, is identified with the pre-Phoenician Carthage. The word "Telêpylos" contains the "indo-european" root "*tel".
- --IonnKorr 19:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I just removed the following proposed Berber etymology from the end of this section.
- In fact, the sun is often called the "eye of the sky" (tit). And since it sets to the west, the Atlantic ocean can be called "the place of concealement of the sun" or Antal n Tit. Greeks could have borrowed this name for the ocean and called it Atlantic, and later used its root ATL to form the name Atlas.
I don't know any Berber, but this is a few too many long stretches in a row for my comfort without more clarity and a source or two. Is the sun often called "eye of the sky" in Berber, for instance? Because one language's idiom doesn't explain another language's metaphor.
I'd actually like to know more about this, especially if something like "antal" is a typical expression for "west" or direction of the sunset in Berber, as it would offer another possible etymology for Andalus. --Americist 19:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
- Could we get a reference to the PIE root *tel into the article, now that we have a Notes section (insert in the html between <ref></ref>? --Wetman 03:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
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- As far as an etymological reference, the derivation of Atlas < *tel stems at least from this…
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- "*telə-: to lift, support, weigh; with derivatives referring to measured weights and thence to money and payment. Oldest form *telə₂-. [....] 6. Perhaps (but unlikely) zero-grade form *t l ̥ə-. Atlantic, Atlas, from Greek Ατλᾱς (stem Ατλαντ-), name of the Titan supporting the world." - American Heritage Dictionary, citing Julius Pokorny’s Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch
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- …but I'm not sure what to make of "Perhaps (but unlikely)". A fascinating page discussing Chaldean Astrology (which is essentially an appendix to an essay on Documentary hypothesis) derives the name Atlas from a Chaldean (!) moon god, *Atraš. (The moon, occupying the lowest – or innermost – planetary sphere, logically holds up the rest of the heavens.) But since the essay cites no sources, and its author is identified only as bob x, I've never tried to use what it says to support anything else. --Americist 22:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
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- The Oxford Classical Dictionary suggests a derivation from tlaō, "enduring". There really is no widely accepted etymology for Atlas. If, however, the article is going to cover his etymology, it should give a wider range of etymologies than the disputed derivation from *tel. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Wikipedia's article Atalanta begins quite sensibly "Atalanta (Greek:Αταλάντη, meaning "balanced")..." How could the root of Atalanta and Atlas not be the same? These more distant etymologies, howeever, never seem to provide a firm enough foundation for any further thought. --Wetman 05:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Daughters of Atlas (and Son)
---And can anyone find a classical reference to a Maera as daughter of Atlas? --Wetman 03:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I found these…
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- "There are also tombs [at Tegea, Arkadia] of Tegeates, the son of Lykaon, and of Maira, the wife of Tegeates. They say Maira was a daughter of Atlas, and Homer makes mention of her in the passage where Odysseus tells to Alkinous his journey to Hades, and of those whose ghosts he beheld there." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 8.48.6
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- "The ruins of a village called Maira, with the grave of Maira … For probably the Tegeans, and not the Mantineans , are right when they say that Maira, the daughter of Atlas, was buried in their land." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 8.12.7
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- …at the Theoi Project. Pausanias is a bit late (2nd century) and basically wrote down whatever he heard or read as far as mythology is concerned. But then, that's pretty much all mythology is.
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- There seems to be a healthy ambiguity about Maira. These two passages from Pausanias, and the one he refers to from Homer, indicate a more mortal nature. Pausanias also does not specify a particular Atlas as her father, which may contribute confusion. In another passage he describes her as the subject of a cult focused on moderating the hot influence of Sirius, with which she is apparently associated (as another star in Canis Major) or even identified. But in that passage Pausanias makes no mention of Atlas, nor do other accounts of the same cult. But most of Atlas' daughters were stars, so it wouldn't take much to pull her into the group. --Americist 22:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I plan to add references for the rest of these, and add items to the list soon. --Americist 23:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Examples of the Atlas Motif
Examples of Atlas-like figures keep creeping into the article, but none of them seem to be missing from the much fuller list at Atlas (disambiguation). Most recently, the architectural feature "atlas" popped up in this article's "Etymology" section. Pending some good criteria for determining which and how many examples should be included in this article, and where they should be placed, I've removed the following.
- Because of Atlas' typical pose, Atlantes are the male counterparts of the more familiar female Caryatids. (Both are sculpted columns which support an architrave beam).
- The comic book superhero Captain Marvel was granted the stamina of Atlas as part of his powers.
- The image of Atlas bearing a great burden serves as an important metaphor throughout Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.
- The size-changer of Marvel Comics' "Thunderbolts" is also known as Atlas. He was recently shown on a cover holding up a building, a pose reminiscent of the mythological Atlas.
I think it actually makes sense to include some examples. I just don't have any strong feelings at the moment about how they should be handled — except that the way they were presented seems wrong.
--Americist 17:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spelling of Phoibe/Phoebe
I originally changed "Phoibe" to "Phoebe" because on Wikipedia all but two references were spelled "Phoebe." "Phoibe" appeared to be a typo. Now someone has changed it back without any explanation other than the spelling is "intentional." To avoid a revert war I will leave it that way as long as there can be some explanation with supporting citations for "Phoibe." Educate us. :) Anon Y. Mouse 16:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Both spellings are correct, but Phoibe is perhaps a better representation of Greek Φοιβη. Phoebe is probably the more common spelling, however, and WP guidelines tell us to use the more common form... --Akhilleus (talk) 23:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- The relevent guidelines deal specifically with article names — the intent being to help readers find articles by means of more familiar forms. Regardless, the current consensus seems to be that ancient Greek terms should be transcribed using Latin tradition, even when the associated entities are being discussed in primarily ancient Greek-speaking contexts (as opposed to more generally Classical or European contexts). So I've just adjusted the remaining non-conforming spellings to conform. The one exception to perfect conformity with WP:GREEK is Menoetius (Gk Μενοιτιος) which the convention would render as Menoetios. I went with Menoetius to harmonize with the current title of the relevent article, which I assume reflects someone's familiarity at some point. The overall result is that the only piped names in Atlas (mythology) now are those which (like Atlas) have articles titled with disambiguation tags, as in "(mythology)". --Americist 23:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Link to UR-language version
User:Wahabijaz jjjjjjjjjjjjrecently added a link to the UR (Urdu?) version of this article, but without the necessary double brackets. However, when I add the brackets, the link displays with different characters than jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjwere input, and one fewer characters than were input, despite the originals still being held "in back." Admittedly, I don't know what conventions might be coming into play, and the station I'm at right now has spotty Unicode support. But I'd appreciate it if someone more knowledgeable or bettejjjjjjjjr equipped would check my work. (I'll check myself when I'm better equipped, too.) --Americist 23:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, "Menoetius" is consistent with the conventions listed in that page, since it contains the inflectional ending -os, for which the Latin -us is substituted.70.107.165.191 05:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reconciliation of Atlas the Titan and Atlas, son of Poseidon
There are at least three instances of Atlas in Greek mythology, each with separate parentages and stories. The best known is Atlas, the Titan son of Iapetus, brother of Prometheus, Epimetheus and Menoetius, who bore the heavens on his shoulders. A second instance is Atlas the King, who was a noted astronomer. And a third instance is Atlas, the eldest of 10 sons of Poseidon, who ruled over Atlantis. It is this latter that I am most interested in because there is the least amount of information about him. The only primary source of information is from Plato's two dialogues, "Timaeus" and the "Critias." Plato seems to have created a new Atlas for his own purposes - which many authors of the time did, as evidenced by so many unreconcilable versions of various lineages. I was wondering if anyone had any secondary sources of this Atlas, King of Atlantis, especially historic secondary sources (i.e. prior to the last few centuries). Detailed accounts of Atlantis by secondary sources would do, if they discuss its leadership. Did this Atlas have consorts and children? Are there stories of wars among the 10 brothers? Does legend tell us what happened to Atlas and his nine brothers when Atlantis was sunk by the gods? Do they still rule today, under the depths of the Atlantic ocean? Any information is welcome. 82.171.128.100 10:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC) Sarah
