Talk:Baruch Marzel

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Contents 1 Old discussion 2 'falsely' 3 March failure 4 Mug shot 5 Bias

[edit] Old discussion

To the annonymous editor posting from 68.80.129.105 :

Firstly: hi and welcome to Wikipedia. You've contributed quite a lot now - why not set up a user account? It tends to make things much easier all round.

Secondly, Hebron is a Palestinian city - this is an uncontroversial fact. On paper, the Israeli government says as much too. Calling it a Palestinian city is taking no stand on the status of Jewish settlements and makes no comment about Israeli military control of the city. It also makes no comment about the racial or religious make up of the city. I've put 'Palestinian' back. If you want to make a statement about the racial or religious make up of the city it belongs in a seperate paragraph, but *really* it belongs in the Hebron article.

Thirdly, I removed the part about "requiring large armed forces to guard them and leading to a serious disrupion for daily life" because it was seriously non-NPOV. I've made an attempt at addressing this. I'm not sure what you mean by "serious disrupion for daily life" unless you are refering to the continual harassment of Palestinians by the soldiers there. Please clarify if you put this bit back in. AW 13:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hebron has been a Jewish city for 4,000 years. Instead of calling it a "Palestinian" city say who lives there and let people decide for themselves what kind of city it is. I think Palestinian is a propanda term itself but if you insist on using it you should include the Jewish position as well. The government of The State of Israel does not have the authority to decide what is a Jewish city and what isn't. It was a Jewish city before there ever was a State of Israel and it is in fact the second holiest city in Judaism only after Jerusalem. It was the first property that Jews bought in The Land of Israel stretching back to when Abraham bought it to bury Sarah.

I didn't put a serious "disruption of daily life". That whole parapgraph was inserted by someone else and I just tried to make it non-biased against Israel. I wouldn't mind if the whole paragraph was removed.

You have a serious problem here - how can anyone possibily define one single "Jewish position"? . Regarding your claim that Hebron is a "Jewish city" - as you well know the Jewish community in Hebron has been a minority for hundereds of years. Calling it a Palestinian city makes no judgement on who should live there and who shouldn't because the term "Palestinian" is a nationalist term with no direct religious implications. I happen to agree with you that "The State of Israel does not have the authority to decide what is a Jewish city and what isn't". The question remains: considering that Palestinian Arabs make up the vast majority of the population of Hebron and that the government of Israel designates it a Palestinian city, what justification is there for calling it a "Jewish city" other than an explictly racist one? AW 21:34, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jews don't consider themselves to be Palestinian. Only Arabs call themselves that. Therefore we should call it a mixed city. The Jews were massacred by the Arabs there in 1929. The Israeli Government also doesn't have the right to decide what a "Palestinian" city is. Only G-d decides.

I've done what should have been done weeks ago and removed that paragraph completely. It belongs in the article on Hebron rather than here, and I've copied over the only bit of information from here which wasn't already there (the bit about the burial place of Joseph). If you want to carry on this argument, I suggest that Talk:Hebron is a more appropriate place. 194.73.130.132 15:06, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'falsely'

What do you mean, it was "delclared (falsely) racist". That isn't even coherent English, but I don't think this was meant as an NPOV statement. The court found Kach to be a racist party, whether it is or isn't should be debated separately. So I have taken out the parenthasized 'falsely'.

[edit] March failure

Pretty funny how he first claimed to have a lot of signatures of people who guaranteed to vote for him so that he would be sure to enter the Knesset, while eventually as of now it appears that they retracted their promises and voted for others. Bye bye Marzel. --Daniel575 20:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, you must be the only one to have actual results an hour after the polls have closed. And it's very obvious that if Marzel doesn't pass the threshold in a few more hours, then these people didn't vote for anyone (just look at the other right-wing party right now). --Shuki 21:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mug shot

Shuki: see his own "CV" on his party's website under. Imprisonment, arrests and convictions: http://www.hazit.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=323

This guy is considered an extremist quack in the Israeli mainstream. I think he's a symptom of much wider racism, but that's another debate. AW 08:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Puh-lease. That section is not the main section, and this is an encyclopedia, not some place to push your POV. Even Michael Jackson's page doesn't have a mug shot. --Shuki 20:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Michael Jackson is not a criminal convicted of violent assault or part of a political group that openly advocates ethnic cleansing. These are facts. AW

It's your POV what crimes are notable or not to deserve a mug shot. --Shuki 17:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The man is a criminal, racist extremist, and mainly known in Israel for this. As noted in the article, he has a long string of criminal convictions for violence (mainly against Palestinians) in ISRAELI courts. This is a fact, one that I've extenisvely sourced in the footnotes. Statements you put back such as "Avnery's support of the Terror group Hamas" are just factually wrong, and I'm sure you're smart enough to know this. AW 08:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Asa, that is your POV. To others, he is known as a peaceful and altruisitc man who works with welfare organizations. --Shuki 18:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"To others"? Give me a break, that means nothing. These are just facts. I notice you don't try to dispute any of these FACTS -- because they are FACTS and nothing to do my my point of view. Stop valdalising this page. AW 14:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Asa, 'to others'. You really do not even know who he is except for what you read in certain outlets and even then, you really don't care about the article. Yes, I cannot really counter your references. The mainstream Israeli media hates and despises him (as you do) and cannot be depended on to present an objective view of him. Removing your cheap weenie mug shot image is not vandalising the page. Your editing of this article has long since passed WP:AGF. --Shuki 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You have no right to remove a perfectly relevant image from a page, which is -- after all -- about an Israeli criminal, as stated, detailed and extensively referenced in the article. I notice you do not dare try and remove those facts from the article. You think you can get away with deleting a picture that both backs up and illustrates facts documented in the article, just because you're trying to defend someone most Israelis consider an extremist and a wacko. And your only argument to counter this "yes well thats your point of view". No -- it's a simple fact. AW 13:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"You have no right" Excuse me King of WP. Please provide a list of all other people articles on WP in which a person not currently incarcerated has his/her mug shot on the page. Your continued infatuation with Baruch Marzel and the tone of your writing here shows that you have a WP:POINT. Asa, stop violating WP consensus. --Shuki 19:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Several politicians have mugshots on their articles, including Gordon Campbell, Vladimir Lenin and Tom DeLay (whose trial is ongoing). As for the comment that Marzel is "known as a peaceful and altruisitc man", surely you are violating your own obsession with POV. The photo shows a FACT - that he was arrested, and facts are not POV. Number 57 22:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

57, everyone has a POV. Please recognize the difference between editing in an article and it's talk/discussion page. Similarly, I do not question Asa saying This guy is considered an extremist quack, only that she has taken this opinion to an extreme by taking in the editing in the article. My POV can be clearly assumed, but you can trust me that I would view a similar portraying of left-wing nutcases (yes, my opinion) like Uri Avnery or Noam Chomsky on WP as skewed and psychotic defamation, not an enclyclopedia article. As you can see, those two extremist individuals have neutral portrayals as the Marzel article should be as well. But Asa has virtually highjacked it and I admit that a) there is little traffic and interest here, b) I don't want to bother overhauling the article since I have others I'd prefer to work on, c) it allows Asa some sort of humour to accuse me of vandalising even though WP doesn't think so.

As for the mug shot, bravo on finding one unknown Gordon Campbell, the other two do not have mug shots, neither does Michael Jackson. --Shuki 23:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"the other two do not have mug shots" - I suggest you hit Ctrl-F and do a search - they just don't look like traditional mugshots, but they are there! Personally I think it's fair enough to use his mugshot to illustrate a point - it might be POV if he wasn't convicted, but he was. Similarly if any left-wing activist had a similar photo (e.g. Tali Fahima), I would have no problem using it. Anyway, perhaps we will be seeing a few soon of some of the present cabinet ;) Number 57 06:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You're such a tool Shuki. I wouldn't have any problem with having mug shots of either of those two people, if they exist. I guess Avneri's probably been arrested a few times. I think Chomsky was arrested for anti-war stuff in the Vietnam era. Don't see anything "POV" about adding their mug shots if anyone could be bothered to dig them out. Their detractors could say "ah look - criminals", and their supporters could say "ah look at the sacrifices they've made for the cause". In fact, you could say the say thing about your loony-toons buddy Marzel "look - the godless Israeli state is persecuting the great hero!" (as many settlers in fact do) AW 10:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

So Asa, now you're violating WP:CIV too on top of WP:POINT among others things. I don't know why you think you know me. --Shuki 20:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Well seeing as you characterized my edits of this article as "psychotic," I really think any talk about "civility" coming from you is a bit of a joke. AW 10:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Asa, please read the English carefully. The edits are psychotic, not you. I try to refrain from personal attacks because I think that most people contributing to WP are generally good people but the anonymity and other issues sometimes exagerates the editing. --Shuki 21:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

This article read like a condemnation from begining to end. I will attempt to cleanup with anyone else interested in the topic. frummer 02:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)