Talk:Battle of Stalingrad

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Archives /Casualties /Archive 1

[edit] Citation for Casualties

[1]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.129.83.227 (talk) 08:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Yeah, I'd like to see this too. The numbers cited seem to be taken from the worst possible Axis perspective and the best possible Russian perspective. When I first read this article some years ago, the Russians had more than twice the casualties that the Axis had. Now it's reversed, and the Axis actually have more casualties listed than the Russians. This has no basis in history, and reeks of bias. Anti-German sentiments should not have that much of an impact on a supposedly neutral article.

I don't like this post. Your thread is messed up because you have made a big deal over something small. Look, the numbers of casualties ranges based on whoever estimates it, because different people have different opinions. There is no reason to say that this article is biased or use the phrase "supposedly neutral" just because you feel like insulting somebody else's work. Whoever wrote this article found a reliable source online, who got their numbers from either another website, or an actual casualty esmtimator (whoever may be held accountable for this job). A few numbers are wrong, maybe, but that doesn't meant the whole article is biased nor does it mean the author is biased. The history was written by the victor, Russia, so they are naturally to seem the better force. I feel insulted as a person that other people actually troll the internet looking for minute things that are incorrect so you can assault the person who put it there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.53.115 (talk) 23:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

I'm just going to waltz on in and say if anything from Stalingrad, by Anthony Beevor, is even half correct. Wikipedia is more then half wrong. NKVD killed thousands of soldiers at Stalingrad, for treasonous activities against the state and othersuch generic accusations. Even more thousands deserted to join the Germans. To even try and pretend that all Russians were 110% devoted to the Motherland is outright laughable. Also, to pretend that the Germans, were their highly mechanized and trained Wermacht, had more casualties inflicted on a army that often sent soldiers to fight without weapons or for the sole task of being a suicide bomber, is once again, charmingly miscorrect. Just throwing it out there, breathing a bit of fresh air into Wiki, no matter how miscorrect that fresh air is.

[edit] City map

I am aware this may not be a suitable place to ask, but is there a detailed map of the layout of the city? Just roads, rivers, and squares that represent buildings. Links to a site with it would be fine.

-G

[edit] GA review

[edit] Concerns

The article should address these points to keep its GA status :

It would be nice to have subsections for the different sections since it is getting too crowded to be easily browsable.
I would like to also see a section that addresses the future of the battle, aftermath or strategies that came out of the battle.
How was the battle seen by the public? Were the civilians killed mentioned outside the war?
There aren't enough references because some of the mentions in the text are close to POV... especially in this section Operation Blau.
The dramatization titled section is POV. It should be changed or maybe it should address why they dramatize such event.
The article is clearly missing lots of citations/references. Such a subject should be betterl referenced.
Review images tag ... for Image:Stalingrad.jpg. Lincher 18:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Listing German snipers of whom there exists no historical data, is not correct.

>>>"the Germans started transferring heavy artillery to the city, including the gigantic 800 mm railroad gun nicknamed Dora." Did they really *start to transfer* Dora? Because I don't think it ever arrived!

[edit] In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 20:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restructure, cites

I'm going to start to tackle this by adding fact tags, and then trying to tie in a citation. If you see one I've added that you have info for, please add. Cantankrus 06:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I've started to search for citations, but the casualty assertion doesn't seem to stand up -- while Stalingrad was certianly one of the bloodiest battles, depending on which estimates it may not be "the most". Cantankrus 19:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of the article is wandering -- No dates or references, just narrative. I'm going to try and get some chronology and move events that I can't find here to the talk page. Cantankrus 03:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archive?

This talk page is becoming hard to read. Certain sections are outdated. Is this good time to archive this page? The casualties are constantly being revisited, this discussion probably requires some good summary. (Igny 14:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

i'd archive it myself, but not sure how. please go ahead, this page is massive Pluke 09:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, see below for some summary (Igny 19:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Croatian units

What about the croatian units? They are not mentioned in the infobox... --Maestral 01:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Croatia shouldn`t be a participant in the info box. The only unit of Croatians that fought at Stalingrad was the 369th regiment that was part of 100th Jager division of the Wehrmatcht and was in everything part of the German Heer and not of the armed forces of the puppet Croatia.Stanimir 21:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of the archives

I have archived the old, repetitious, outdated and just plain dead discussions. (Igny 20:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Casualties

Before starting a new fruitless discussion on inconsistencies in casualties and/or the bloodiest battle in history, please read the archive of previous discussions. Summary of the basic concerns were as follows

why are the casualties bigger than the strength(number) of the troops?
do the casualties include reinforcements?
how does the battle of Stalingrad compare to other lethal battles in history?

[edit] Other

In another segment of archive, there were discussions on

Stalingrad in media, fiction, films, games
Enemy at the Gates: snipers, NKVD
the most important versus just a turning point in WW2
various POV fights
various organizational issues

[edit] Readability Issues

Hello
My comment is not related to the content of the topic, rather to the structure of one particular sentence that I found somewhat ambiguous.

In the fifth paragraph under the section titled, The Soviet counter-offensive: Operation Uranus
I found one sentece that I needed to reread for clarity. After rereading the sentence I have an idea for how to make it more easily understood at first glance.

Here is the sentence:

This would allow the Germans in the city to fight on while a relief force could be assembled, a plan that had been used successfully a year earlier at the Demyansk Pocket on a much smaller scale (an army corps versus an entire army)

I found the parenthetical aside a bit confusing on first read.
I would like to propose, what I feel is, a more easily read, though longer, alternative.
My words:
(it had been only an army corps at Demyansk as opposed to an entire army)

How do contributors who have been working on this page for some time already feel about this slight change of wording?

Rockthing 07:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted GA

I have delisted Battle of Stalingrad as a good article. This is because of the problems raised above. The main sticking point is the complete lack of references, which is unacceptable in an article of this importance. It has more video games listed than references! Wikiproject Unreferenced GA will be notified of this delisting, as will Wikiproject Military History given that they attatch "Top priority" importance to this article. The formatting issues are being worked through, but the lack of references still brings this article down. Chrisfow 16:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The second two paragraphs of the introduction read like a high school essay. They represent a thesis. Is that what an article should be?

[edit] Not a Mortar

In the 8th paragraph in the "In the City" section is: "With no end in sight, the Germans started transferring heavy artillery to the city, including a gigantic 800 mm mortar." The Dora was 800 mm caliber, but was not a mortar. You sure can't muzzle load this gun. Click the link for a picture. Joeylawn 05:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not commenting directly on Dora, but if you're saying that a mortar is defined partly by muzzle-loading, that is not technically correct. Most mortars are muzzleloaders, but despite what it says in wikipedia's own mortar article, breechloading mortars exist. See the talk page on mortar. DMorpheus 14:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Good Boy Morpheus! Keep trying and you eventually get it right! 14thArmored 14:16, 20 December 2006

Please stop. If you continue to make personal attacks on other people, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Thank you. DMorpheus 14:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

My point is that the 800mm gun mentioned is Not a Mortar, it's artillery.Joeylawn 01:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, and so changed the article. I just wanted to be clear on the reasoning. DMorpheus 14:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The integral problem with all forms of heavy weapons is recoil and how to absorb it. A mortar relies on the shock waves being absorbed by the earth. Artillery relies on springs and hyrdaulics. Dora was artillery.

We're all agreeing Dora was not a mortar. However, the type of recoil system (base plate or some form of mechanical dampening system) is not part of the definition of a mortar. The Soviet 160mm, for example, had a recoil system. Your proposed definition would also be hard-pressed to deal with the numerous vehicle-mounted mortars. Just sayin. DMorpheus 19:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

one of the maps here is really nice ;-) i didnt know that Vistula and Bug are actually the same river ;-)--195.150.93.45 21:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Critique of the style of this article

[edit] Thesis?

The second and third paragraphs of the introduction read like a high school essay. They represent a thesis. Is that what an article should be? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.235.219.110 (talk) 22:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] The tone of this article...

The tone of much of this article gushes like something I would expect to read in Sport Illustrated. We would like the facts without the constant reference to comparative and superlative aspects of how this was the "greatest" struggle ever. I do not mean to bleed the article of its spirit, but what is important is getting the facts straight. -- 71.141.244.13 23:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The gushing prose about "discipline and determination" reads like propaganda sometimes. I think the article needs to note that one of the reasons soldiers didn't retreat and fought on in terrible conditions is that both sides were commanded by totalitarian leaders who would not permit retreat. On both sides soldiers were brutally punished and sometimes killed (or put back into suicidal combat positions) for retreating even when it was the sensible military option. --mgaved 11:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I agree in some respects to what the two users above have said. The article needs a cleanup, but I was unprepared to pepper the entire article with fact and other tags. I have some sourcebooks now, and I will be revisiting and adding tags, and trying to reword and revamp things. Cantankrus 03:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be too hasty about making substantial changes. This article has been worked on for a long time by many editors, and there are substantial disagreement between different sources which the current article reflects. It may be worthwhile to go through the discussions about sources in the talk page before making changes. Also note that one of the two critics you mention (IP 71.141.244.13) is quite uninformed about the battle. He or she is the one who wrote that victory at Moscow ensured victory at Stanlingrad (sic). Regards, JS 21:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also note that there is an archived talk page and one exclusively devoted to casualties. JS 21:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not here as a POV pusher, but as someone interested in factual history. If someone can advance a reliable source for a certain casualty figure, we can include it. I'm also not here to rehash old arguements. That said, I will review the talk page for consensus and source references. I'd like to see this article back to GA candidate status. Cantankrus 22:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

On review of the talk archives, there seems to have been little reliance on RS. I did take out of it that the article should be non contradicting (ie listing casualties exceeding troop strength). If the consensus is that it's that troublesome, a range, with sources cited, should be included. Really no reason to have a big fight. Cantankrus 22:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Quite right, thanks! JS 23:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance of this victory

You cannot easily separate the Soviet victories of Stanlingrad and Moscow because the victory at Moscow freed up troops to assist in the relief of Stanlingrad. Let's avoid all this talk about Stalingrad being the turning point of the WW II or we will get into a pointless contest about Stanlingrad vs. Moscow as the "greatest" battle. The fact is that two mechanized national armies, Nazi and Soviet where in a total-warfare struggle with each other. Once Moscow was secured, the entire Soviet national army was directed at rolling/grinding on to Stanlingrad and beyond. -- 71.141.244.13 23:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the Battle of Moscow occurred a year before Stalingrad (not Stanlingrad). Between Moscow and Stalingrad there were other important important battles like the 2nd Battle of Kharkov that resulted in massive Soviet casualties (over 200,000 by some estimates). So to say that success at Moscow led inevitably to success at Stalingrad is an error. It is true though that Moscow was the first time that the German Army was forced into a major retreat. Secondly, "entire Soviet national army was directed at rolling/grinding on to Stanlingrad" is factually wrong. The Soviets had a greater number of troops on the North and Central fronts combined than at the South front (Stalingrad). JS 02:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Also given that the Battle for Moscow was mostly over by the end of 1941, and the German attack on Stalingrad did not begin till August 1942 the following makes no sense "Once Moscow was secured, the entire Soviet national army was directed at rolling/grinding on to Stanlingrad and beyond." JS 03:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

While its true that one battle has an influence on the other, it doesn't mean we can't critically assess and evaluate what the significance of each individual battle means.

The German army wasn't forced to fight at Stalingrad -- it chose to. The decisions made by the different sides had an impact, and the war could have turned out different if other decisions had been made. During the battle is where the strategic initiative passed from the German forces to the Soviet forces. By this measure, it was the "turning point" of the war in the East.

Before an edit by me, the battle was listed as the costliest battle in terms of lives. The sources I consulted seemed to have various estimates, but it was clear that it was close to the top. This article is on my TODO list, but I haven't been able to make it to the library to check up on my FACT tags. I'll address the tone and bulk up the refs at the same time. Cantankrus 00:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I doubt if a single library will provide you all the information you will need. The internet may be a good alternative. As you note yourself, there are "various estimates". Regards, JS 02:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the unsigned user is thinking of the battle of Rzhev? We ought to add something about this under-publisized battle, as it was important to the Stalingrad victory. I'll provide more info/sources tommorow. With respect, Ko Soi IX 04:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Ko, There is an existing Wiki article about Rzhev [2]. It is rather sparse and certainly can be improved. Regards, JS 07:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

JS - I have access to a number of good libraries, and the library loan system in my area is excellent. What I'm looking for is good reliable sources for battle casualties, for statements on different phases of the battle, etc. I don't expect to have everything done in one run, but I haven't been to the library since I started my FACT tagging.

As far as other battles go, many eastern battles are not really described fully in general WW2 books. There tends to be a focus on Western campaigns, as that is where general reader focus is. If you have any info, please either add it to the article, or here on the talk page. Cantankrus 04:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello C, I think when it comes to casualties, most sources are biased one way or the other, and it is hard to say which is unbiased. In such a situation the best we can do is probably to mention the various sources. What usually is beyond dispute is which army advanced, and which retreated at what dates. You are right about most sources focusing on the Western campaigns. If you want an alternative view, you could try Alexander Werth's "Russia at War". I cannot vouch for its accuracy, but it certainly is a different take. Regards, JS 07:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello J, in regards to Soviet casualties Krivosheev (http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/) is a rather reliable source because prior to it's publishing (in 1993) S.Maksudov, an emigrant demographer who obviously had no access to Soviet archives, came to a nearly same result by using demographic info only. With respect, Ko Soi IX 19:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Koi, Thanks for the link. I generally steer clear of casualties arguments as they seem endless. Maybe Cantankrus will find the link useful. Best Regards, JS 19:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance of Stalingrad

Finally, the fact that the city bore the name of Hitler’s nemesis, I. V. Stalin, would make the city’s capture an ideological and propaganda coup. (a cite) It is believed that Stalin also had an ideological and propaganda interest in defending the city which bore his name, but the fact remains that Stalin was doing the best he could given the time and resources.

IMHO this section should be reworked to reflect what was seen as important prior the battle, not the numerous speculations and myths generated afterwards. At least these two should not be mixed together.

There was no shortage of cities named after Stalin in Soviet Union: Stalino (Donetsk) was larger (500,000 inhabitants) city and the centre of important industrial area, captured by Italian troops. Stalinogorsk (Novomoskovsk, Russia) was somewhat smaller city which was captured as well. Neither event caused fall of Soviet regime and neither city was defended differently just because of the name.

Among the other cities were Stalinabad (Dushanbe), capital of Tajikistan, Stalinsk (Novokuznetsk) in Siberia and small Staliniri (Tskhinvali, Georgia). (See list of places named after Stalin). Pavel Vozenilek 21:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree with your point. You can go ahead and reedit the subsection, and we will work from there. (Igny 19:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC))

I don't have that much of knowledge to complete the change, I just wanted to point out an inconsistency. Pavel Vozenilek 21:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I replaced a sentence here. The oilfields were a thousand kilometres to the South, nowhere near Stalingrad.SmokeyTheCat 12:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The main danger to the Germans as they pushed west in the southern part of the front was that they were creating a long flank to the north-east of their forces. They did not have enough troops to defend this flank and used allies like the Romanians and Italians. This is what proved to be their undoing at Stalingrad when the Soviets attacked the German allies on this flank (Uranus and Saturn). The claim that the Germans would have benefited if they had pushed even deeper south-west while ignoring Soviet strong points like Stalingrad is rather dubious. JS 19:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

That's true, but it is also true that the long open flank to the north-west (not east, if you mean with reference to the tip of the spear) was irrelevant unless the Soviets massed suffcient force and mounted an major offensive there. The long open southern flank of US forces in France beginning at the end of July 1944, for example, was strategically risky only if the Germans had the forces to do something about it.

I mention this because this is another one of those situations in which the 'error' is obvious in hindsight *because* we know the outcome. At the time, even though there were plenty of objections from German officers, there was also a conclusion that the risk was worth it - the Red Army seemed to be melting away. DMorpheus 21:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I meant "north-east" as in the front stretching from north-west to south-east, with the Germans on the south-west side of it. You are right about the amount of remaining strength and reserves being the critical issue. There is much evidence that the Germans consistently underestimated that, beginning of course with Hitler's prediction at the start of Barbarossa that it would last only six weeks. Regards, JS 22:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NKVD

I'd removed NKVD from the list of fronts in the main box on the right. NKVD was an umbrella organisation and during WW2 part of NKVD troops was assigned to the armies and fought alogside of regular army units. Short overview can be found at [3].

"NKVD" may have been added because of the movie but it was rather common practice in Soviet army and foreign units fighting alongside Soviets to immediatelly shoot those who panicked (to stop spreading panic on larger scale). Pavel Vozenilek 22:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maps of Stalingrad

I found this link to a number of maps of battle of Stalingrad. They orginate from Library of National Defence in Brussels, Belgium. I wonder if Wikipedia could use them. (Igny 19:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC))

The best may be to ask the webmaster for the details. The opinions on what image material could be used on WP vary so it is the best to obtain as much of license related info as possible. Pavel Vozenilek 21:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Example of Wikipedia's dark side

I watched the evolution of this article for more than 2 years now, and I must say that it clearly shows Wikipedia's most fatal flaw. The article has gone through so many revisions; it makes me sick to my stomach. The POV, ideology, tone, facts, etc in this article changed sides more than on Mamayev Kurgan. People spend more time arguing sides (primarily the subject of “the” vs “a” turning point), than looking for concrete evidence and citations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.0.199.131 (talk) 21:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

I think the evolution of the article simply reflects the disagreements that exist about history. I would say that it is rather evidence of Wikipedia's "bright" rather than "dark" side. In other media, there is no way to rectify bias. Here in Wikipedia the editors constantly challenge bias, and though they are not perfect, I believe that most editors respect evidence when it is presented. JS 22:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Quite agree with JS, maybe a lot of time has been spent by many people. But the result is a pretty balanced and informative article with sources for free. Pukkie 22:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro vandalised

Is it just me, or has the intro been vandalised?

Just a short quote:

"took place between August 21, 1992 and February 2, 1983, as part of World War I."

Something is very, very wrong here...

81.69.41.183 21:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

what? It didn't happen in WWI? Oh no!

Is this a joke? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.0.198.165 (talk) 22:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Number of casualties?

I think the amount of casualties has accidentally been multiplied by a 1000. 250,000,000 Soviet casualties seems a bit extreem, espessially since they lost only 10% of that in the entire war. Thus I'm changing it. Maraud 04:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC) eh somebody beat me to it. Maraud 04:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References for the casualties

Some guy on internet compiled a list of references for different estimates of casualties in different battles. The estimates do vary greatly depending on the source. May be, we should add the table of all the sources, no? (Igny 04:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC))

Someone just added that the Axis had a grand total of 1.45 million troops, this could be wrong and it could be right but I removed it and another part because neither had any proof. Matilda Sharks 07:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stalingrad diet

Why have people removed the section on the Stalingrad diet section which I added?

Do we really have to have a separate section for each sentence in the article? General Zeitzler is mentioned elsewhere in the article. (Igny 16:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] GUESS WHAT!!!! CASUALTIES

THIS Is the third time i wrote the same headline. There is a serious problem here and editors dont want to solve it. Is irritaing, i will tell you why. Is not about the number of casualties higher than the troops deployed. I now germany sent many reinforcements to the battle. THE PROBREM HERE IS THE NUMBER OF RUSSIAN CASUALTIES; NOT GERMAN ONES. Whermacht and axis satellites loosses are ok, and well documented, but russian casualties are 60% higher than the showed here.

Just see here http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm , THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME. IF you dont solve it i will place than numbers here now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.62.146.244 (talk) 16:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

According to Krivosheev, Soviet casualties in the Stalingrad battle (defensive operation+offensive operation) were 478 741 irrecoverable losses (KIA, MIA, dead of other causes, captured) and 650 878 sanitary losses (wounded/sick). Those losses occured from July 17th, 1942 to Februrary 2nd, 1943. (http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter5_10_1.html#5_10_16 and http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter5_10_1.html#5_10_18) With respect, Ko Soi IX 22:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

But The Axis losses are from sep - jan, so you can not have Soviet july-feb and axis sep-jan, also Axis are only of those who died on the field not of those who died in hospitals back in the reich or on their way to a field hospital. And axis are only of inside the city unlike the Soviet that are also for battles outside the city. Matilda Sharks 07:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slovakians and "Axis troops who chose not to surrender"

Please state sources which say that Slovakian units took part in the battles in and around Stalingrand. As far as I know, Slovakian troops were fighting in Caucasus, not Stalingrad. Croatian units on the other hand did take part in the battle, if I recall correctly. Then again, I might be wrong.

Conserning the information I added regarding Axis troops who chose not to surrender, this information comes from the German documentary that came with the special edition of movie "Stalingrad" and was confirmed by Soviet documents and veterans. Regards, --Kurt Leyman 12:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello Kurt, Could you please provide more details about the movie "Stalingrad"? Which year was it made, who was the director etc.? Did the movie explicitly mention the number 10,000? Regards, ~~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:VER

There is no sources no nothing just his own poersonal point of view, without a source anything can be removed those are the wikipedia rules Potaaatos 17:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"Hello Kurt, Could you please provide more details about the movie "Stalingrad"? Which year was it made, who was the director etc.?" Stalingrad is 1993 German movie. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_%281993_movie%29 for details. "Did the movie explicitly mention the number 10,000?" It is not the movie where I got the information from, but from German documentary that came with the movie's special DVD-edition. The documentary is named "Stalingead" and is in three parts called "The Attack", "The War", and "The Fall". In total the documentary lasts for hours. It is in the last part in which Soviet veterans who are interviewed mention German/Axis troops who did not surrender, and that they kept getting casualties for two weeks after the surrender. This is confirmed by official Soviet documents that give the figure of 10000.

Your reply is confusing. It appears that you are now saying that the 10,000 figure did not come from the movie but from "official Soviet documents". Can you specify what these documents are? 10,000 is quite a large number and this would be significant. Anthony Beevor does not mention such holdouts in his book, although I do not claim his book is exhaustive. Regards, JS 05:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"There is no sources no nothing just his own poersonal point of view," I have given you sources but you are ignoring them and refusing to discuss this properly. This has nothing to do with my "poersonal point of view". On the other hand, it is issue of Croatia and Slovakia we should discuss too. I have not seen any sources given about Slovakia's role in the Battle of Stalingrad. Then again, I have not given any about Croatia, which I why I ask for serious discussion about the issue. Regards, --Kurt Leyman 23:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy says that

The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.

Anyone who wants to delete is free to do so you can read it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:VER and then report yourself to where ever you want for not understand wikipedia policy, that block will go nicely with the 50 others you have

This is my SECOND reply where I have provided a direct link to how things are done on wikipedia you can read it over and over again to see how things are done on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:VER Potaaatos 00:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

According to [4], The last German holdouts in Stalingrad’s northern pocket; the 11th Corps under General Strecker, capitulated at 10.00 am on February 2, 1943. I could not find any evidence (sources) that some Germans (moreso 10000 of them) kept fighting after that date. There is a possibility that some (very few) Germans went into hiding and either died from starvation or surrendered later. Unless the sources are provided by Kurt, I will revert him. If someone (anyone) claimed that was true, could you give us the names. Otherwise it is clearly a speculation. (Igny 18:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC))

Kurt and Potaaatos, both of you should relax. The issue isn't difficult. If Kurt can provide sources for the 10,000 number we can keep the information. If he can't I think he won't object to having it removed. Regards, JS 18:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"It appears that you are now saying that the 10,000 figure did not come from the movie but from " As far as I know I never said that the information came from the movie, but from the documentary that came with it.

Unless someone can prove that the documentary is flawed then we have a problem. The documentary's name is Stalingrad and it is German, but obviously made with Russian assistance, since several Soviet veterans and civilians are interviewed (+German veterans and civilians, and even Romanian veteran). It is clearly a relatively new documentary. Besides Soviet veterans confirming that a large number of enemies refused to surrender, you can see Soviet documents that give the figure.

I am now watching that certain part of the documentary. A Soviet veteran named Fjodor Iltschenko says: "On 13th of February we were in movies. They were showing us a film outside. Suddenly we were being fired at from somewhere. When the men of my company started to fall back, the Germans kept firing at them. They had been hiding in a cellar of destroyed house. They, of course, were killed right after this." According to the documents showed, 2418 of the men were killed, and 8646 were captured. --Kurt Leyman 20:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I would like to correct my mistake. It was early March, not April, and the figure was over 10000, 11064 (I just watched the part of the documentary with the documents again (the last time I saw it was several months ago, which caused me to make the mistakes. Again, I apologise), and that is the number that is given) according to Soviet intelligence documents.

A movie is not a reliable source read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:VER

I must point out that Kurt has been blocked several times in the past for numerous things, also he has edited this very page in the past where he has change the casualties figures up and down to what ever he wanted as can be seen on the page history info. Kurt has also edited several articles during the last 2 weeks he has been reverted on all of them Potaaatos 00:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I see the cause of misunderstanding. Surrender of an Army could not just happen overnight. Rounding up 100k+ Germans probably took weeks after the German capitulation, it was a logistic nighmare, worse than the evacuation of New Orleans after Katrina. During this period of cleanup Soviet Army understandably took some casualties in sporadic fights and this was probably reported in the documentary. (Igny 06:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Paragraphs 2 and 3

Once again, the second and third paragraphs of the introduction read more like an thesis. They are inappropriate for an article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.0.198.165 (talk) 22:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Relief and food

I think that the point needs to be made that although the Luftwaffe was capable of flying in 300 tonnes of food per day, this was the maximum. It was usually closer to around 90 - 100 tonnes of food per day, which is, when you think about it, a significant difference from 300 tonnes. In addition, there were some points where they were unable to fly food in at all, due in part to both the weather and Soviet airforce activity.

Climie.ca 19:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Cam

[edit] German prisoners

There is the possibility that the figure of 110,000 German prisoners is innacurate. Most of my sources say that the figure was 90,000. Is this a different figure or a made-up number?

Climie.ca 15:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Cam

[edit] Error in article: Paulus' "surrender" is disputed

Did Paulus in fact "surrender" at Stalingrad? The acclaimed 1999 book, "Stalingrad" by Antony Beevor disputes this. Paulus, when his headquarters was captured by the Soviets, said that he did not surrender, and that, in fact he had been "taken by surprise." He then rebuffed his Soviet captors' request that he order his troops to surrender. Hitler's resulting anger was not over Paulus's "surrender," but rather over the fact that Paulus had allowed himself to be captured alive, instead of shooting himself.

[edit] surrender

While it may be true that Paulus did not in fact "surrender" it is known as a fact that about 90,000 German prisoners were taken at the end of the battle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Climie.ca (talk • contribs) 19:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] GA in zh.wikipedia

Please add {{Link GA|zh}} in interwiki section. Thanks! -- Givegains 13:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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