Talk:Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Could we please remove the references to Mr. T and Gracie Allen? Their inclusions here are silly. -- Zoe

The cure for ignorance is more knowledge. That you don't yet see why these cross-references are meaningful means that I have not yet explained the connection well enough. I shall continue to keep re-writing the article, adding more explanatory information each time, until it meets with your approval. I have at least six of the leading biographies of Disraeli on hand, so I'm sure I have enough research materials to accomplish that task. -- isis 03:40 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

It is a matter of wording, yes, but also straining a bit to make a "contemporary" reference to somewhat passé examples. Mr. T. wasn't emulating Disraeli, so the most you could say would be "much like Mr. T. a century later". As for the Gracie Allen comparison, you have to be over 50 to get it, so I think airhead takes care of it. I do think his Jewishness, just added, means more. Ortolan88 04:30 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

But wasn't Benjamin Disraeli (unlike his father) C of E? -- Zoe

The English considered Jewishness a race as well as a religion, which many others also did and do. His father raised his family in the synagogue until Benjamin was 11, whereupon he baptized his children in the C of E. Although Disraeli was a committed Christian, he never denied his Jewishness (which was often thrown up to him) and, in fact, did much to popularize the modern notion of the Judeo-Christian tradition. This Jewishness is certainly relevant to this article as it is always mentioned in any discussion of Disraeli. Ortolan88

Could we say that he's the first, and only Jew to serve as Prime Minister? I feel like to say someone is a Jew is to make an ethnic statement, while to say they are Jewish implies a religious commitment, as well. What do others think? john 05:10, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps you could say that he was the first and only person of Jewish ethnic origin to serve as Prime Minister. Some people feel that the word 'Jew' as a noun is derogatory. -- Francs2000 07:04, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally I read somewhere that Disreali's conversion to C of E from Judaism was marked by the alteration of his surname from D'Israeli to Disreali. Not sure how accurate that anecdote is though. -- Francs2000 07:07, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Unknown. As late as 1837 Greville referred to him as "D'Israeli," on the occasion of his maiden speech. On the other hand, Disraeli himself released the book Vindication, by "Disraeli the Younger." Even on into the early 1850's D'Orsay wrote to him as "D'I", so the usage certainly seems inconsistent. Disraeli was baptized om July 31, 1817. According to Robert Blake, Disraeli first altered his surname in a letter to John Murray in 1822. Mackensen 16:22, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Would it not be appropriate to move the page to Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield?

I dunno...he's better known as just Disraeli... john 06:57, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

For most of his political career he was just called Benjamin Disraeli, and was awarded the earldom much later. As he achieved his fame before becoming the Earl of Beaconsfield I say leave it as it is. -- Francs2000 07:02, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

On the other hand, he was Earl of Beaconsfield (and called such) for the majority of his time as Prime Minister (1876-1880 as opposed to 1868 and 1874-1876). john 07:13, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well then it's just a question of whether the article should go under the name he was better known as (Benjamin Disraeli) or his actual name and full title (Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield). I would vote for the former, personally but if you want to move the page I for one won't revert it. -- Francs2000 07:19, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think we'd really need to have a much clearer policy on these things to come to any firm decision. The easiest and most consistent thing would be to just have all hereditary peers listed under their highest title, but that would result in a lot of weirdness, like Arthur James Balfour, 1st Earl of Balfour, or what not... john 07:22, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) appears to say that Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield would be preferable. -- Francs2000 07:29, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Have moved the page to the correct location as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). -- Francs2000 08:10, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

His article really should be under the name by which he is known: Disraeli. But I suppose that battle's long over. -- Binky 08:17, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well now I'm not so sure, I just looked at the talk page for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) and there it says that Benjamin Disraeli is preferable, which goes against what the convention says. So I'm just going to back off and leave it somebody else. -- Francs2000 08:20, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The talk page also mentions Stanley Baldwin, but Baldwin was created a peer after resignation as PM, so the title of a commoner would be more commonly used and ought to be used. However, Lord Beaconsfield became a peer during his tenure as PM, and would have been known by such a title during his prime ministership, so the page could be acceptably located where the title is also mentioned. -- Lord Emsworth 15:28, Jan 4, 2004 (UTC)

In the 1898 edition of Pears Cyclopaedia, if you look up 'Disraeli' it says "See Beaconsfield". Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield is the most sensible place. Mintguy 15:51, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Books treating his second premiership usually refer to "Beaconsfieldism," certainly Lowe and Bright did when attacking Disraeli. This is probably best. Mackensen 16:08, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I moved it back here. The discussion both here and at the WikiProject Peerage discussion has led towards that conclusion, and all the redirects point here. Unless someone is willing to put in the work to change the redirects, it should stay here. (Especially since, as we've noted several times at the WikiProject Peerage page, most other encyclopedias list his peerage title). john 02:32, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't object to the current location, but to make things clearer for people who make be confused about why he is referred to by various names at various times, would it make sense to modify the intro from:

Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield...

to

Benjamin Disraeli, after 1876 the 1st Earl of Beaconsfield...

This would give our readers some hint as to why he might sometimes, especially earlier, be known simply as Benjamin Disraeli, and later be known as Beaconsfield. --Delirium 19:15, Jan 12, 2004 (UTC)

I can't understand the need this dumbing down. It is not a convention followed by any other encyclopaedia. What would you have for Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, "Arthur Wellesley, after 1809 Viscount Wellington, after February 1812 Earl Wellington, after October 1812 Marquess Wellington, after 1814 Duke of Wellington"? The bulk of his military activity occured before he was elevated, and he was known to many of his contemporaties simply as Wellesley. Mintguy (T) 21:02, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'd actually prefer that chain of "after [x] known as [y]", since it clarifies what's what. Simply calling someone by the name they had when they died is confusing, as they may have been known by a different name through most of their career. --Delirium 01:43, Jan 15, 2004 (UTC)

I think it needs to be judged on individual merit, depending on who the article is about. By this virtue I believe this page is in the right place, going by comments made above with regard to his politics and I agree that the "after 1876 known as 1st Earl of Beaconsfield" suggestion is dumbing it down a little too much. Also Mintguy's comment is valid, as many distinguished people in history went through many titles, and to list them all in the article title would be confusing and totally unnecessary. -- Graham :) 21:16, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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The story has a link to Earl of Beconsfield, but it just redirects you back to where you came from. That's stupid. Kill the link or kill the redirect, I don't care which, but someone who knows more about the subject should do it.--Carl 16:55, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Happy 200th Birthday

IsarSteve 19:31, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)