Talk:Berger Blanc Suisse

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[edit] White GSDs--is material copyvio?

(Moved from Talk:German Shepherd Dog. Elf | Talk 21:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))

The information that was recently added about white GSDs came direcly from the "source" site listed, so it's a possible copyvio. I left a message for the anon who posted, asking if s/he owned the copyright on that source page. What should be done with the paragraphs in the meantime? Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

We've queried westlord.com previously about using material & we seem to have their gracious approval; see Talk:Maremma Sheepdog. Meanwhile, we already have a (badly written) article on White Shepherd Dog that's apparently really supposed to be under Berger Blanc Suisse according to our master List of dog breeds; this text needs to be removed from here & moved there & a clear reference to the other article inserted here. Since you asked. :-) Elf | Talk 21:42, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Have fun with that, Elf :) Lachatdelarue (talk) 01:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Moved section to Berger Blanc Suisse; haven't done any merging or editing, though. Elf | Talk 21:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] White Shepherds==are they a breed?

(Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dog breeds. Elf | Talk 21:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Just noticed we don't have this on the breed list. Does anyone know for sure whether there is actually a White Shepherd/White Swiss Shepherd/White GSD breed club or do I have to put finding out on my 'to do' list? Quill 06:08, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A while back I talked to a lady with a white GSD who said that there's a group (club?) that particularly promotes the white GSD, but I didn't get the impression that it was as a separate breed. Elf | Talk 06:27, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The SV considers white a disqualifing fault so, as far as the FCI is concerned there is no such thing as a white German Shepherd Dog. I'm not sure about the GSDCA/AKC, but I think they also disqualify white. White shepherds can breed true and there are breeders who specialize in breeding white shepherds. There are organizations devoted to white shepherds. I'd say they are as much a breed as Shilo Shepherds, etc. Personally, I'd qualify them as a breed simply to distinguish them from "real" GSDs, which are not white. Of course I'd say the GSDCA/AKC GSD is a separate breed from the SV/FCI GSD for the same reason, so you probably shouldn't listen to me. Dsurber 19:07, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This discussion illustrates the problem of using a strict reading of the breed standard to determine a dog's breed. This sounds counter-intuitive, but allow me to give an example: My dog is a Standard Poodle. The breed standard calls for a docked tail. My dog's tail is au naturale, i.e., undocked. Does this mean she is not a Poodle? Of course not. It only means that she cannot expect to compete in conformation. Similarly, a litter of GSD's may contain dogs of all sorts of colors. A white coat may be a major fault, but the dog is still a GSD. Breed clubs create strict standards to breed towards. Said standards are purely arbitrary, and don't mean a thing when it comes to genetics. In my opinion, white GSD's do not constitute a separate breed, but they are a part of the current "designer dog" fad, so a separate short page, pointing to the GSD page, might be in order.The Dogfather 20:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mostly I agree with you. Just because a dog has a disqualifying fault doesn't mean it isn't a member of the breed. However, white shepherds breed true and there is an active, organized community that treats them as a separate breed. My point is mostly a negative one. I would not want to see a picture of a white shepherd on the GSD page as an example of a GSD since white is a disqualifying fault. There are people who breed white shepherds and people who buy them. IMHO info about white shepherds does not belong on the GSD page other than to say white is a disqualifying fault. Where should info on white sheperds go (if anywhere). IMHO on the White Shepherd breed page. But as I wrote earlier, I think the GSDCA/AKC shepherd is a separate breed, so you shouldn't listen to me. Dsurber 21:16, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ah yes, poor Quill's brain, addled though it may be, latches onto words, and Quill seems to remember reading something definitive at some point. So I just searched. According to the Aust White Swiss Shepherd Dog Club, the FCI recognized them in 2002. (I don't yet know if this is true.) From UKCdogs.com: The White Shepherd was recognized by the United Kennel Club on April 14, 1999. As far as I can tell, so far the breed name is a matter of preference. (I foresee another JRT-PRT-RT-PJRT fight coming up).

The American White Shepherd Club says: IS THE WHITE SHEPHERD A PUREBRED?

Yes. The White Shepherd is registered as a German Shepherd Dog, color white, with the American Kennel Club (AKC) and the Canadian Kennel Club (CKC). The White Shepherd is registered as a White Shepherd with the American White Shepherd Association (AWSA) and the United Kennel Club (UKC).

I have no idea what the Swiss have to say; I think there are active breed clubs there as well. Quill tired. Quill want coffee.

Quill 21:58, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It sounds similar to the situation with the American Cocker Spaniel. They compete as separate colors (Black, ASCOB, and Parti), but are the same breed. According to this website, white was one of the original colors.The Dogfather 02:14, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The FCI recognized it as a Berger Blanc Swiss, in 2002 Group 1 Section 1, Sheepdogs. I think that pretty much settles it, for our purposes, since we have breed pages on 'breeds' (cough, splutter) with less of a pedigree (so to speak). So I'd suggest adding them to the list of dog breeds under the FCI name with a cross-reference at 'White Shepherd' and adding a note into the GSD article. Opinions?

Quill 21:21, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What if you did something like what I did with the Corded Poodle? It is not technically a distinct breed, but many people think of it as such. It's not on the list of dog breeds, but I thought it was. Anyway, I don't have a problem with a separate listing for 'White Shepherd'. We have to take our audience into consideration, and there are going to be people looking for a listing for 'White Shepherd' who do not know that it's really just a white GSD (but we're going to tell them, right?)The Dogfather 22:51, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Elf | Talk 23:00, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The gene for white is not a mutation and has nothing at all to do with albinoism. The gene for white is a covering gene, and there is a colored dog under the white coat. The white gene is recessive that is why 2 white dogs always produce a white. 2 black German Shepherds will always produce black puppies because it is also a recessive gene. The USA is not an FCI country. The AKC and the GSDCA does not recognize the white shepherd as a breed. Although white is a disqualifying color, it is only a disqualifying color in the conformation ring, and white German Shepherd Dogs are allowed to earn titles in any working class they want to, obedience, tracking, herding, agility, etc., as well as other German Shepherds who are long coated, blue, liver, or spotted. The White German Shepherd Dog Club International awards AKC GSDs who are white with breed championships.

The FCI have not made the white shepherd an official breed yet, it is only provisional, and this may be the case for a number of years.

[edit] Recent edits

I have cleaned up the article removed the majourity of it as copyvio, and even if we did have permission (see "copyvio again" above), the majourity of it was simply babble about about the breed clubs and their histories over the breed itself, so I saw this as sufficient grounds as to remove it from the article anyway. I may pick at it again later and return any scraps of useful info that i find within it.

Concerning the Info from westlord.com, I found the majourity of this about the breed clubs also, so removed the parts concerning that but I would like to see the info about them as a working dog returned (i will probably do it later). Just let me take this one step at a time damn you! ;) I have also made little changes to the appearance section (originally from westlord) to try and make it a bit more original, although my attempts at this time are a little pathetic. Tekana (O.o) Talk 16:40, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. :-) Elf | Talk 16:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)