Talk:Bill O'Reilly (commentator)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bill O'Reilly (commentator) article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.
	This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group.

	Radio Portal This article is supported by the Radio WikiProject. This project provides a central approach to Radio-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article attached to this page and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards. Visit the wikiproject page for more details.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments

This article is part of WikiProject Journalism, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to journalism. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Archives

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Contents 1 Acts of intimidation 2 About controversies section... 3 Spouse and Children 4 WP:BLP 5 NBC News 6 Requested move redux 6.1 Survey 6.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 6.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 6.2 Discussion 7 Vandalism Abounds 8 Bias 9 Very Long

[edit] Acts of intimidation

Several months ago Rosie and Joy alluded to Bill O'Reilly's sexual harassment lawsuit. This is what happened next according to Rosie at rosie.com:

“

when joy and i alluded to bill oreillys sex scandal on the view we were told the following day that we couldn’t bring it up anymore or else bill o would “go after” all the hosts of the view

”

Legal filings about Bill O'Reilly's sexual harassment lawsuit are here.

Bill O'Reilly has also threatened NBC in an effort to silence and later fire Keith Olbermann for his remarks regarding Bill.

Are you requesting or suggesting this Rosie feud be placed in the article? If so, be bold and do so yourself. But if it is just here for gossip or discussion purposes, I'm afraid it doesn't belong as it goes against the guidelines of WP:TALK. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Bill O'Reilly has become obsessed with Rosie O'Donnell. He has had five segments this week to Rosie even though The View has not been on since Friday of last week. On Monday he advised Rosie to stop the personal attack, an obvious reference to the above quote. Since Rosie posted that message Bill has gone after her like she said. I think this needs to go in the controversies section.

Bill O'Reilly: DEATH Industry's biggest shill ever, EVER. Negative: discrimination on nearly every level (except the most racist, sexist kinds), living flamewar, pantaCon payroll. SHILL. This disgusting hypocritical little man has already booked his reservation to Hilter's Suite in hell. I'd be happy to see him off (PoPo, I'm only dreaming). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.57.48.149 (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] About controversies section...

O'Reilly's appearance at the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children event was not, in fact, canceled by the NCMEC. A subsequent correction to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch article from the Tuesday, February 22 edition, page A2 (it does not appear to be available online), states:

Representatives of Bill O'Reilly and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children say the TV show host canceled his appearance at a fundraiser scheduled in Naples, Fla., next month. A story in the Metro section Friday incorrectly stated that the organization, which had received complaints about O'Reilly's on-air comments concerning Shawn Hornbeck, had removed O'Reilly as its speaker. The article also incorrectly stated that O'Reilly representatives would not comment. Prior to publication, no one from the show had responded to a reporter's phone calls and e-mails requesting comment.

To that end, I have removed this erroneous information from the article. 68.166.139.133 19:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Does "The Colbert Report" really fit there? I mean, I know it belongs in the article, but I hardly see how it fits in the controversies section, O'rielly doesn't really seem to mind the parody, and I highly doubt he would remain silent about it if he didn't like it. He has even commented that he likes "The Colbert Report". Perhaps it could be placed somewhere else.--Metasex 19:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

O'Reilly has two choices: appear to have no problem with it (and make the "issue" of how he feels about it go away) or complain about being professionally and competently mocked (which Colbert is doing, virtually 100% of the time), and appear to be an oversensitive whiner who couldn't handle having a mirror placed in front of him, which is how he appeared dealing with Franken's spot-on criticisms of a few years ago. Regardless of O'Reilly's public attitude towards Colbert, I think it belongs in this section, because it's an accurate satirization and mockery of O'Reilly, and many of his fans and apologists gun for Colbert frequently.-- Info999 03:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The "Limbaugh blurb" as MrMurph101 calls it is not a quote from Limbaugh, it's a quote from O'Reilly, and it's about how according to O'Reilly, he is a "journalist" and should therefore be held to journalistic standards. Please stop deleting this text, as it's a key quote for this section to understand how O'Reilly is "fair game" for his critics, who frequently demonstrate O'Reilly's playing fast and loose with the truth.-- Info999 06:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Info999, O'Reilly is comparing himself to Rush Limbaugh and saying that Limbaugh is held to entertainment standards whereas O'Reilly himself is held to journalistic standards. Personally I see it as a nullification of Limbaugh's credibility. Essentially O'Reilly is saying Limbaugh is free to not know what he's talking about, but as a journalist O'Reilly has to "know the facts" for lack of a better term. Anynobody 10:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying the Limbaugh blurb quoting an O'Reilly opinion(which I never mentioned was Limbaugh's opinion by the way) should be completely deleted from the article. I just thought it was misplaced and misused. As it is stated now it is ok but this criticism should be elaborated more. Just stating an O'Reilly opinion as it did originally should have been put in the personal views section. I believe the gist of this criticism is how some believe he is an objective journalist when in reality he is a guy who presents his opinion with guests that may debate or concur with him. This part just should have been explained better. MrMurph101 02:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The new statement looks like an improvement, it started to sound like all mention of it was to be removed. Anynobody 03:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You have to understand that the Controversy & Criticisms section can have more in it than simply direct criticisms; the overwhelming majority of criticisms of O'Reilly stem from the fact that he continually offers as facts items which are almost immediately proven to be false. The inclusion of the quote from O'Reilly helps to place these criticisms in context; if comedian Rush Limbaugh isn't held to a factual standard, perhaps others may be encouraged to let O'Reilly off the hook as well, telling us that we're making too much of the situation. That O'Reilly opens the door to hold himself to the "journalistic standard" is certainly relevant here. And Murph: you may not have wanted to communicate this point, but when you said "took out Limbaugh blurb, states an opinion of O'Reilly", your sentence construction means that you think Limbaugh said it about O'Reilly. If you had meant that you understood it to be an O'Reilly quote, you should have used "...states an opinion of O'Reilly's." Also, if you never meant that it should be "completely deleted from the article" - why did you in fact completely delete it from the article? Why not simply move it, and explain your reasoning? Sounds to me like you fell on the wrong side of the prevailing wisdom and then tried to scramble back and agree with us from the start. Very much like O'Reilly!  :) (just a joke, not a personal attack).--Info999 03:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It is POV to automatically say that everything he says is immediately proven to be false. If that were so there would be a lot better examples to go by here that go beyond what advocacy groups like Media Matters come up with. There are those out there that claim all his critics have been immediately proven to be false and that is POV also. People can decide which side to believe if any. As for the article, in hindsight I should have explained my intentions and that was my bad. I believe it is the goal in wikipedia to reach consensus, not have everything my way or any certain way and be inflexible. I was just trying to keep the article section from getting bloated with tangential references. For instance, I concur with Metasex's take on the Colbert reference. Until Colbert actually goes on record as saying "I do not like O'Reilly and I'm here to mock him" (the real person, not the character), it's POV and original research(connecting the dots) to consider it crticism. Colbert is just a comedian at this point. The Colbert Report is mentioned in The O'Reilly Factor article and has been for quite some time. As for my edit summary on Limbaugh, here it is: "took out Limbaugh blurb, states an opinion of O'Reilly, nothing really controversial or any criticism noted" I probably should have used "O'Reilly('s)" instead to make it more clear. The sentence in the article at the time just stated something without elaborating. However, the entry is now better so I do not have any issue with it. That is our goal, to make articles better as we go on. MrMurph101 00:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure to whom you're referring when you say "it is POV to automatically say that everything he says is immediately proven to be false." I never said that, and I never even came close to saying that. What I said was that O'Reilly "continually offers as facts items which are almost immediately proven to be false." This is a true statement of fact. For several years, analysts, critics and journalists have demonstrated instances where O'Reilly made a claim of fact that turned out to be false. I'm not talking about opinions, political beliefs/stances, or predictions - I'm talking about things that O'Reilly have said were facts which were proven not to be so, from the Peabody to Malmedy and so on. These are not things that "people can decide which side to believe" - they are instances where O'Reilly is demonstrably wrong. I never stated, either in this discussion or in the article, any sense of how often he does this, only that he does "continually" (meaning he has done so in the past, and despite being called on it, correctly, again and again, continues to do so) - which is true.

In terms of Colbert, if you don't think a criticisms section belongs here, you're entitled to that opinion. If it belongs, however, then the three most significant critics of O'Reilly - Media Matters, Franken and Colbert - belong. And as a side note, claiming that Colbert is "just a comedian at this point" underestimates his (and Jon Stewart's, to whom Colbert has to be seen as connected to understand his signifigance) importance to current political discourse and political/journalistic criticism. You may not like them - that seems pretty clear - but it's naive to dismiss either as "simply a comedian."--Info999 01:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I never mentioned anything about Jon Stewart, whom would be a much better example of a critic of O'Reilly. By the way, I enjoy both Stewart and Colbert and I do like them. However, Colbert has not engaged in any true commentary as Stewart has done on occasion. One day Colbert may get serious and say what he really feels and therefore whatever criticisms he has would certainly be credible. Right now it is a major assumption to say he is a critic of O'Reilly.

As for the statement you said, I reread it and I'll revise my statement. You stated "...the overwhelming majority of criticisms of O'Reilly stem from the fact that he continually offers as facts items which are almost immediately proven to be false." To say it's the "overwhelming majority" is POV. One could counter after being on for over 10 years with somewhere over 100 airings per year, give or take, that the amount of factual errors is pretty low. Also, the New York Times had to issue a correction about his statement refering to Cindy Sheehan as a traitor. One could easily find a list of factual errors made about O'Reilly if they wanted to. I'm not here to be an O'Reilly apoligist. If pro-O'Reilly people kept taking out everything that he has criticized for and turned this into a promotional page I would revert that too. Edits should ultimately be about improving the article, not proving a point one way or the other. MrMurph101 17:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Satire is usually thinly veiled criticism. If you watch the show as you say you have, what Colbert is saying should be pretty clear. Deepstratagem 06:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spouse and Children

I wonder if the inclusion of the name of Mr. O'Reilly's wife and children is necessary. First, they are not notable in and of themselves. Second, Mr. O'Reilly has gone to great lenghths to keep their identities private. Third, there is no strong precedent of placing persons spouses and especially children in articles about them. Would anyone object to the removal of the names from the infobox per the privacy provisions of WP:BLP? Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not know he was married so that part seems important. It is interesting to me that his wife's last name is not O'Reilly. Timothy Clemans 00:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The test is whether it is notable, not solely importance. In addition, the importance of her name, is up for debate. That being said, if there is no objection in the next few days, I will delete the name of his children per the privacy provisions of WP:BLP. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 00:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure I was just to know that he is married and has kids. Timothy Clemans 01:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I would note that he is married, as it affects his positions, particularly on child advocacy, but if she is not noteworthy, her name should not be mentioned. Bytebear 06:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

His wife's last name is O'Reilly. She used to host A Current Affair.

[edit] WP:BLP

I object to the Colbert's description of his character as a ""well-intentioned, poorly informed, high-status idiot." This description of Colbert's character has no relevance to O'Reilly, except as to backhandedly call O'reilly these names. Such a characterization violates WP:BLP. When it comes to BLP, NO information is preferred over non-sourced negative information. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ramsquire: you win. Looking over your "contributions" and your discussions not only on this article but on several others, I can see that you're a committed conservative idealogue, doing whatever you can to protect and enhance the reputations of famous conservative idealogues, while trying to make it look like you're "only following wiki policy" ("...only following orders" can't be far off for folks like you). I personally find that reprehensible, and won't spend any more energy fighting you over the trivialities of your hero Bill.--Info999 02:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Deepstratagem 08:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I am very disappointed in both Info999 and Deepstratagem's dive right into personal attacks and incivillity. Considering I explain my position, the fact that neither of you wishes to even discuss it without the PA's is very telling. Good luck to both of you. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ramsquire in order to say it has no relevance to Mr. O'Reilly, I think we have to first ask: Is Stephen Colbert parodying Bill O'Reilly's mannerisms and style? Many people in the media think he is. (I tend to agree with them, but Colbert doesn't seem to be able to capture the emotion BOR exudes when he gets really angry.) If he is, then how Mr. Colbert describes his character is relevant to BOR because it shows Mr. O'Reilly has gained enough attention that he now has spawned a parody of his show. After all, without Bill O'Reilly to parody the Colbert Report would not exist. If Mr. Colbert is not parodying BOR, I'm curious to know how you explain issues like the "Papa Bear" talk and Mr. Colbert's spoof of Mr. O'Reilly's talking points segments? Anynobody 07:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note, I am arguing that Colbert should be included in the article. However the description of the character as a ""well-intentioned, poorly informed, high-status idiot" must be shown to be clearly relevant to O'Reilly or else it comes off as an implied insult to BO, which would violate BLP.Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It is one thing to say that Colbert is parodying his styles. It is another thing to say that he is parodying him by acting like an uninformed idiot. If I have to explain why that is wrong according to Wikipedia policy, then I don't think that you deserve to be told, but I'll do it anyway. It violates WP:NPOV, and it is up to individual interpretation, making it OR. Problem solved? 声援 -- The Hybrid 07:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I think The Hybrid is seriously missing the point: and that is that no WP editor ever made the comment about Colbert's character being "a well-intentioned, poorly informed, high-class idiot." Colbert himself made the comment, and he was referring to the character that he plays on The Colbert Report and in public appearances. Much (if not most) of The Colbert Report is a satiric parody of O'Reilly and the O'Reilly Factor (including the name of the show, The Word segment, his bizarre novels, his fan web site and fan store, his crusades and boycotts, Colbert Nation, his flights of grandeur, his bluster when faced with inaccuracies, his unabashed and over the top patriotism, the specific manner in which he lobs loaded questions at his studio guests, his claim to be a "man of the people" while clearly having status and money, among others). It is not OR to point out the fact that Colbert is parodying - and, more importantly, criticizing - O'Reilly. Nor is it OR or POV to quote Colbert's characterization of his...well, character. It's integral to his criticism. You cannot cherry-pick only the flattering - or, at worst, the moderately critical - aspects of the public criticism of a figure such as O'Reilly. It's not biased to report and record what is said about him, especially by O'Reilly's (arguably, if for nothing other than level of exposure) most prominent and vocal critic. If the Fox News Half Hour News Hour parodies Michael Moore, and the actor portraying Moore is in a huge fat suit and oversized mask that greatly exaggerates Moore's appearance, and that becomes the most prominent criticism/satire of Moore over a long period of time, then - however unfair, unseemly and unoriginal the parody - it is valid to include the fact of its existence in Moore's WP bio. So is Colbert's show, and his quote. It does not violate WP policy to include relevant, central quotes.--Info999 07:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Info999 is exactly right, Mr. Colbert's description of his parody of BOR is what it is. The Hybrid there will be times when information which is notable to the person or subject in question will be inherently POV, especially when dealing with quotes. As an example from history, in 1941 Winston Churchill was asked why he was suddenly saying nice things about the Soviet Union after Nazi Germany invaded it. He said, "If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." Please understand I'm not literally equating Colbert/O'Reilly and Churchill/Hitler on the same historical level, I am pointing out that it's neigh impossible to make a POV concept like an opinion sound NPOV. Anynobody 08:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I did miss the fact that it was a quote. Of course, I wouldn't suggest editing a quote for neutrality, but to create, an overall sense of neutrality for the CR area of the Criticisms section, the quote should be mentioned before a concise mentioning of O'Reilly's general apathy towards the Colbert Report. This is just as a way of saying how he has, or rather hasn't, responded to Colbert calling him an idiot. That seems fair to me. 声援 -- The Hybrid 21:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Hybrid: considering the way you addressed Anynobody up there, I'd say a small apology to them is in order ("...you don't deserve to be told...", snippiness, etc.). You were in the wrong, and you came on strong - stronger, in my opinion, than was warranted, even if you had been correct, which you were not.--Info999 05:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I meant it as a general statement, which is why I didn't post it underneath anynobody's statement, but if I offended anybody I apologize. 声援 -- The Hybrid 06:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you, Info999 for caring and 声援 -- The Hybrid for apologizing. Personally I hate it when I make an error like that, the only thing worse is somebody giving me a big speech about stuff I already knew because I missed a detail somewhere. Therefore I too must apologize for getting so long winded in my explanation. I'm trying not to offend anyone and it seems to increase the size of my edits. Anynobody 08:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

(P.S. that's not a shot at you Info999, as soon as I posted my last edit it occurred to me that size wasn't the issue I was trying to apologize for but for use of big analogies)Anynobody 08:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe editors here need to keep in mind that because an editor objects to or disagrees with an edit in one form, it does not necessarily mean that said editor wants it gone from the article forever. Part of the consensus approach at Wiki is objecting, discussion, and then suggesting changes to reach a consensus version of an article. If editors refuse to assume good faith with each other, and launch right into personal attacks, then that becomes impossible. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Right. Which is why I never engaged in any kind of personal attack; I simply stated my opinion that Ramsquire's political ideology was influencing the things that he or she took out or left in on several consevative bio articles. Whether it's correct or not, it's an opinion based on a review of the record, and isn't a personal attack. However, when Ramsquire accused me of attacking him personally (on my talk page), Ramsquire used the term "stupid" to refer to what I did. Who's engaging in personal attacks?--Info999 21:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

From WP:NPA-- "Comment on content, not on the contributor." ... What Is Considered a Personal Attack? ... "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." (and in this case the attempting affiliation is demonstrably false). I have made almost 2,500 edits here at Wikipedia over the last two years, and less than 10 percent of those edits have been made here, at Ann Coulter (if you read the actual edits, you won't find a political bias-and I was given an NPOV barnstar for my edits), and at FoxNews (because of two RFC's--again no bias in my edits) combined which I believe is where Info is getting it's FALSE information that I am a "committed conservative idealogue". Also on your talk page, my sentence reads in its entirety "Your allusions about my ideology is absolutely wrong and stupid in this context." Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 21:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If Ramsquire was referring to what you did, which he was, then he wasn't making a personal attack. If he attacked you as a person, then it would have been, but an editor's actions are fair game. In fact, we have a place for editors to tell people that what they have done sucks ;). Also, reminding someone that they were wrong when they had just said that they get why they were wrong is the kind of thing that really turns people off. It didn't bother me, but some people around here get really huge egos, and it would be best to try not to deflate them. Peace, 声援 -- The Hybrid 22:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody: I'm dropping it - they deserve each other, and Bill. I left an explanation on your Talk page. Thanks!--Info999 02:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NBC News

Shouldn't there be a new section about his continuing criticism of NBC News? -Amit, 03/05/07

Be Bold. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 22:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move redux

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved.--Stemonitis 14:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism Abounds

Apparently some over-enthusiastic O'Reilly haters have vandalized the page again with false information. I move the article be checked for it's neutrality and I will eliminate the offending remarks, of course. 72.198.194.159 15:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The information that you deleted contained the precise dates of broadcasts, and was sourced. Could you explain why you consider this information to be false? -- Cat Whisperer 15:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. The information that you deleted was not vandalism. Please see WP:VANDAL for a definition of what is considered vandalism here at Wikipedia. -- Cat Whisperer 15:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As no explanation was provided, I've restored the deleted material. -- Cat Whisperer 01:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think it is wrong to mess up the page, but I can understand why people are so mad at this guy as he is the evilest human being on the entire earth. Chris 21:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

Can we simply state in the article the obvious conservative bias of O'Reilly? Do we really need to beat around the bush? We could just say he has "many conservative opinions," citing his view on gay marriage, etc., couldn't we? Please comment back! Xredsox14x 06:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Xdrakemanx

We can't, even though it would probably be accurate, and I'll explain why. There are stricter guidelines surrounding what is said about living people here, WP:BLP. Wikipedia is not supposed to make assertions about people, instead what it can do is cite allegations of bias that are made in notable sources. If he came out and admitted he is a conservative, that would also be safe to add. Anynobody 11:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

O'Reilly claims to be a "Traditionalist", so some of his views can fall into the conservative area, but if he is going to just be called a "conservative" and potrayed as a right wing nut, then why aren't Keith Olbermann and his like called what they sound like--"left wing liberals?"

I see a clear liberal bias when I look through the pages of the various political personalities here at Wiki, so I can't count on it for factual info.

Conservatives are often potrayed as shady and dishonest with any little scrape they have had blown up and detailed, often inaccurately and unfairly, while liberals and Democrats are potrayed as credible and honest and their records are mainly clean.

O'Reilly is accurate and fair the big majority of the time, but here he is potrayed as more or less a lying unreliable big mouth "conservative" talk show host whose every word and scrape he's been in is scrutinized, while those like sports reporter Keith Olbermann who has spouted much vicious and inaccurate trash at those he disagrees with politically, but works for liberal MSNBC, is labeled a "political commentator" and is potrayed on his page here as totally credible and well mannered.

I saw O'Reilly's segment with Glick when it played originally and I saw what Glick did to tick O'Reilly off. It wasn't long after 9/11 and O'Reilly had no idea Glick was going to go off on an anti American rant and blame 9/11 on Bush, and Glick wouldn't let up when O'Reilly told him they weren't there for that, but in O'Reilly's page here Glick is potrayed as the innocent victim and O'Reilly the bastard.

Every little scrape O'Reilly has had is in his page here and with him potrayed as the bad guy--and many of them where he was not. This is not the case for any liberal commentators. They are mainly portrayed here as credible, upright and polite, and Olbermann just to name one, is sometimes anything but that.

No wonder Conservapedia was created. This site can't be trusted for accurate and fair political info.

Maybe the people who created Conservapedia and yourself should try to be a part of this community and be bold where you see improper edits. However, I suspect that your major problem is that the articles on people like Olberman aren't hit pieces, and this article isn't a brochure for the greatness of O'Reilly. If you have verifiable information about Olbermann, add it to his article. If there is incorrect information in this article about O'Reilly, delete it per WP:BLP. This is an open project, anyone can contribute, so your call of some sort of institutional liberal bias is way off base. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't know me, so what you "suspect" about me isn't an issue. "Hit piece" is the issue. This is supposed to be an "encyclopedia", not an op-ed page. When I read the pages for "liberal" commentators, they are nice and clean with those commentators looking upstanding and honest and reporting only the facts. Barely a hint of anything negative or to even suggest they are ever biased and full of it when many times they have been. If somebody is to believe what they see here, these are apparently brilliant and objective people and flawless commentators who never stray from the truth or the facts.

Fox is "bold" and leads the others in ratings, and they have "hit pieces" on them regularly from every liberal media avenue. O'Reilly has far larger ratings than Olbermann, and like Fox has many enemies in the liberal camp and in the rest of the media that is largly liberal. He's hit on by them regularly for just about anything he says, and this page looks more like a "hit piece" every time I look at it and find newly added material and new sections highlighting every little scrape and "alleged" lie and scandal he's ever been even close to, with O'Reilly potrayed as the villian every time.

I have seen segments of O'Reilly's show and then later read a totally differing account of his behavior and what was said, and it's usually the new account that becomes the "truth" all over the media. I have even seen clear "jokes" by him potrayed in the liberal camps as "serious" and hateful comments. I don't have a hundred years to correct every error I see at this site. The difference is I don't care to go to "Olbermann's" page and enter any and every stupid or inaccurate or vicious thing I have heard him say, or blow up and try to create controversy from any little thing so to try to discredit him. Olbermann is no threat to me or what I believe. "O'Reilly" has a lot of people who do care to do this, as his page shows, because he apparently is a threat to their views, ratings and politics.

I have added material at this site in other areas like the entertainment field, but it's far too big a job trying to set anything straight in the political area, and one can and likely will just come by and "delete" my entry later on. I understand the point of the Wiki format, but I don't know if there is a point in having it when all is "not" said and done. An "encyclopedia" that can't in it's format give complete and accurate accounts to all subjects fairly is not useful. I don't accuse the Wiki "creators" of bias, but that doesn't change this.

There have been discussions about a liberal bias in the article. Some think that it has one, and others don't. None the less, this is a wiki. If you and other editors from Conservapedia wish to come and attempt to make this article more accurate, and more balanced, than by all means do so. On Wikipedia, any and all contributions made in good faith that better the project are welcome. Assuming that this article does have a liberal bias, I challenge you and other Conservapedians to consider why that is. You may come to realize that it is because the conservative editors that would balance out the liberal ones have gone to Conservapedia, and left this article to fend for itself. The solution to that problem is very simple indeed. Cheers, -- The Hybrid 04:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't represent Conservapedia, I found it as I did Wikipedia. If I find Conservapedia isn't accurate in their facts then it's no different to me than Wikipedia if it isn't. Facts are what I want. I don't care what political views the subject has. It's "hit pieces" I don't like. In this comment area here from the people at this page, most of the people seem to dislike O'Reilly, and I'm sure that feeling goes into their additions to this page.

Even if I wanted to try, I couldn't balance out this or any subject's page alone, and if not enough people do, then it and any of it's type are of limited use to somebody looking for balance and "facts" without negative allegations and speculations in the mix posing as facts. Facts shouldn't be selected or ignored by party lines in an encyclopedia. I don't condemn Wiki or the format, but it's a reality. Peace —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.247.5.139 (talk • contribs).

Let me clarify me earlier point. You appear to be ready to leave (or to not want to participate) because you feel like the job of balancing is too big for one person. However, if you contributed and stated your opinions on specific items in the talk pages, you might be surprised at the response. Sure many editors here are liberal, but most will listen to your suggestion and try to compromise with you to reach a consensus, and you will almost always find support from someone. Yes, sometimes, you will also be attacked personally and accused of stuff by some editors, but editors who do that are idiots and are outnumbered immensely on this Wiki. My point was be bold, state specific objections, make suggestions. Don't just drive-by, condemn, and move on. That is usually done by extremely biased editors who don't like their guy's article having negative information in it. From your second post, you appear more thoughtful than that, so I apologize for being off base with my initial impression. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 23:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Editors who take action in an attempt to solve a problem that they see generally receive a positive response, regardless of how those watching them feel about it. While other people may disagree with you, they will almost always be willing to talk with you in order to achieve a compromise. Those that aren't are indeed the minority, and are generally not respected. Those that name call will generally have their wiki careers ended by a community sanction down the road. If you tell them what they did in a polite manner, and request that they not repeat the action, then they will probably stop. If they don't, then they are in violation of policy, and you can begin the dispute resolution process. If you are in the right, then you will come out on top. Please consider registering an account and working to improve this article yourself. Peace, -- The Hybrid 00:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Listen, everyone knows that there is an enormous liberal bias on Wikipedia. It is the internet after all. I personally think that we should treat our articles about living people with some respect on not try to poison them with right or left propoganda. The article should go through some evaluation. In particular, the criticism and political views section. Put aside our opinions and try to achieve a NPOV. --68.173.177.238 01:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Very Long

I noticed this tag {{verylong}} and had a suggestion, create a subpage for the more minor (as determined by a discussion of course) entries to cut down this pages overall length. Anynobody 10:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea Timothy Clemans 19:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The idea makes a lot of sense, I'm just curious as to whether there is any precedence for creating such a subpage. The minor items could be deleted as non-notable, pending discussion, of course. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 21:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I had assumed that the move would look something like the creation of the controversies section before, but maybe concentrating on his views and opinions this time. The longer he's on the air the more views he will express, so it seems like a matter of time before it gets bigger and bigger. Anynobody 02:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Also the criticism section is getting a bit too large considering that it does have a separate subpage. Anynobody 02:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I tried to split a section, and this happened. It was a section that bloated the article but it was something worth mentioning so I gave it it's own article. It is still in one of the talk archives though. However, I believe that the Political Beliefs and Points of View should be split into another article because that right now is the largest chunk of the article.MrMurph101 02:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Your example is, I think, a good idea caught up under a POV sounding title. Let me explain that I understand there really isn't a left when it comes to him, there's a far left. Supporters of BOR probably saw the use of "Bill's" term as a sort of bait, and detractors may have seen it as BOR propaganda come to Wikipedia.

I've thought about creating a similar category, groups and individuals defined as liberal by BOR. Having seen your experience, maybe one page with all people and groups he has associated with the right/left/center. I have a feeling the liberal section would fill up fast, but if we allow for the possibility of him labeling more groups on the right or in the center it could address any issues with WP:NPOV.

I definitely agree that the Political Beliefs and Points of View needs reorganization first. Anynobody 08:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The list can be found here under the "opinions on other politics" discussion. It includes a few that he thinks are "far right" as well. And yeah, it wasn't the best title for an article but I could not think of any other way to word it at the time. The far left part was a huge list. The problem is if you try to define what positions he has on issues defined as liberal, conservative, or moderate or say whom he considers what political position, someone will come in and say that so and so position is not liberal/moderate/conservative. For example, when the article defined his positions that way, people debated about his view on global warming and whether it was a liberal or moderate position. It is better to just say his position on it and leave it at that.

Coming back to the length issue, I also recommend that anything that is duplicated in the critcism article should be removed here to keep it from blowing up. We should leave a note telling editors to check that article before adding things here. As for the Political Beliefs and Points of View section, are you saying that it should be cleaned up and then split into a new article? I'm for that or just spliting it and working on it there. Either way. MrMurph101 01:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean about people debating the true nature of the identified person/group labeled by BOR. Maybe if the list was defined in a context, like identifying where on the political spectrum he is. This way arguing about how liberal/conservative a group/person REALLY is becomes irrelevant as the point is to illustrate O'Reilly's opinion. (I don't mean to make you feel bad about the title, I could have very well given it the same title myself.)

As for the length, I'm waiting for one of the Pro-BOR people to make the first suggestion about what to do. I don't want to come off as trying to "hide" his opinions. I imagined a brief overview here, and then moving a lot of the specifics to the new page but I'm open to other suggestions too. Anynobody 02:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)