Talk:Black Flag (band)

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A Wikipedian removed Black Flag (band) from the good article list. There are suggestions below for improving areas to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, renominate the article as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review. Removal date: 13 February 2007

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Seems to be some debate (*1) about the connection (or lack thereof) between Black Flag (band) and Anarchy. I would agree that it overstates matters to describe them as an "anarchist" band in the opening paragraph (originally added 00:54, 25 May 2005 by Gstamets). Black Flag certainly does not belong in the "anarcho-punk" subgenre either (*2) - they did not wear their politics on their sleeves (and though the band often went shirtless, don't forget this was the pre-CD album-sleeve era).

Having said this, it is naive (at best) to suggest there was no connection between the Black Flag and Anarchism. This is why I added back the reference under the "Early History" section (actually, I made the reference point specifically to Anarchist Symbolism rather than Anarchy generally). Whether the connection was intended chiefly for shock value (arguably, all the Sex Pistols ever intended with their Anarchy references) or as a vague reference to left-leaning political tendencies, it would certainly be incorrect to associate Black Flag with right-leaning Nazi-skinhead types. (A mistake that could only come from missing the ironic intent of "White Minority" and ignoring that Puerto Rican Chavo Pederast was frontman when it was originally released on the Jealous Again EP.)

There is ample support for the connection between the anarchist symbol and the band name. In fact, the indications are that the Anarchy reference is primary and the Bug Spray reference is secondary (perhaps even an afterthought). Check out the many press interviews reproduced at http://www.dementlieu.com/~obik/arc/blackflag/press.html (a site which is already listed as an External Link). In the September 6, 1980 interview in Ripper 3, Chuck (Dubkowski) specifically states that it stands for Anarchy and Greg (Ginn) specifically confirms that "it's not the insect killer". In the November 27, 1980 interview in Flipside 22, Chuck elaborates: "It was Ray's (Greg's brother and BF artist) idea originally, they both floated around at the same time, even at the time of Panic we wanted another band called Black Flag which would be more of a threatening thing. The name has the connotation of anarchy, negation and all that." It is not until the March 17, 1981 interview in Capitol Crisis 5 that Dez (Cadena) says "We have a new thing now; Black Flag Kills Ants" and that's only after Chuck again confirms that Black Flag stands for anarchy.

The "Black Flag Kills Ants" thing came about as a result of Black Flag and Adam and the Ants playing at the same time in nearby clubs. The band had special t-shirts printed up with that slogan on them. This was sometime in '81, I believe, and it's become something of a legend. The whole thing dovetailed nicely with the developing friction between the up-and-coming hardcore crowd and the mellower new wave/new romantic/psuedo goth types.

In fact, at least as far as Chuck is concerned, it really might be appropriate to apply the label "anarchist" outright. In the same Marc 17 1981 Capitol Crisis 5 interview, after Dez says that they don't consider themselves a "political band," Chuck adds: "I'm not for or against any government in particular. I figure you've got to fight control, always." Chuck then says: "Political involvement IS the problem" and next confirms that his No-Rules philosphy, noting "My own rules are bad enough. I don't need anybody else's." These sure sound like anarchist sentiments to me. However, again, Chuck is no proselytizer or propagandist, stating earlier in the interview that he doesn't really care if fans wear swastikas and that "I'm not going to tell people what to wear, how to dress, how to act." In short, I agree that the reference and link to Anarchism in the article's opening paragraph was inappropriate.

User: Bendobay (63.205.184.207) - e-mail: [david@tp-options.com]

(*1) Pardon my newbie-ism at Wikipedia and my hamfisted first attempt at editing the page. I didn't even know about the history page or realize that there had been recent debate on the Anarchy issue. Learning from my mistake, I decided to make a minimalist change to the actual entry, and add my further suggestions here for incorporation (or not) by a more seasoned editor.

(*2) As a sidenote, it might make sense to restore the reference to "hardcore punk" in the opening paraphrase (which was in the article until some idiot changed it to "rock music" - which someone later corrected to "punk rock" which remains to now.)

Hardcore is what Black Flag was. Period.

In Decline of Western Civilization movie they state there name Black Flag means anarchy

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This has become the main Black Flag band page; please help to redirect links to here instead of the disambiguation page. --Damaged Again

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This page violates the Wikipedia NPOV by making it seem like Black Flag was all Ginn's doing and minimizing the hugely important role of Chuck Dukowski in Black Flag's sound. Ginn was certainly a great guitarist but without Dukowski there would have been no Black Flag, In the later years BF was more dominated by Rollins.

I added a paragraph about Dukowski's importance to Black Flag in an attempt to correct the neutrality dispute. Anon, 27 Sep, 2004

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Is there any possible reason to include the reference to a '90s Pittsburgh hardcore band? I'm going to assume this was someone's vanity edit and yank it if nobody objects. --Snarkout 11:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 (a closeted Homosexual) 2 Featured Music Project evaluation 3 Lead section 4 Info on covers in Legacy section? 5 Template 6 Genres 7 Infobox picture 8 GA Re-Review and In-line citations 9 Possible insertion of error? 10 Good article Review of GA status 10.1 Delisted 11 RHCP's Flea

[edit] (a closeted Homosexual)

I have removed this comment by an anon, but I don't know it doesn't belong. Mikereichold 23:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Music Project evaluation

Black Flag (band) has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Lead - Sales - Pictures - Audio - References - Format/Style

The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.

• Lead: Too long
• Sales: Probably nothing to say about sales per se, maybe document size of concerts instead?
• Pictures: Need fair use rationales
• Audio: Need sound samples
• References: Formatting problems, probably not exhaustive? no inline cites
• Format/Style: Major copyediting needed, short paragraphs

[edit] Lead section

The lead section of this article is too long—too many paragraphs. It should be 3 to 4 paragraphs maximum and should be a summary. Can someone shorten it and move some of the materials to the other sections of the article? If not, I will come back to do it and copyedit, if necessary. —RJN 07:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think all you need for the opening is the opening paragraph, the "Over the course of the 80's..." paragraph, and a last paragraph that mentions their extensive touring, and the impact it had on emerging bands. The rest can be put in the body of the article. It's a pretty tight article, so maybe someone with better skills than I have should move things around. Solitary refinement 02:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info on covers in Legacy section?

I think the information on covers of Black Flag songs recorded by other bands should be removed from the Legacy section. Black Flag is one of the most popular American punk bands of all time; their songs have been covered, live and in the studio, innumerable times. I think it would suffice to say something to that effect, rather than note a handful of specific (and wholly irrelevant) examples. Thoughts? Justin Bailey 16:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

I think it would be a god idea to make a Black Flag template just the other bands with templates. Adamv88 23:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

UPDATE I just started the template. I actually copy and pasted the Minutemen template and and used that as the basis. Adamv88 02:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The template is "done'. Please make any changes you want to it. I was unsure how I should list the members. Adamv88 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genres

This is a tricky one. Someone removed "heavy metal" from the info box, but I restored it and added "hard rock" and "progressive rock" too. I mean, you have My War, which is definitely metal-influenced, and Loose Nut, which is basically a hard rock/hardcore punk fusion record, etc. As for "progressive rock"... the I Can See You 12" and the Process of Weeding Out EP sorta fall under that category. Also, In My Head has prog influences. But I dunno. It's not cut and dry at all. Justin Bailey 11:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there seems to be a recurring theme of people removing genres. I've reverted a couple times, but I think it's just going to keep happening. Any suggestions? Justin Bailey 02:33, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox picture

What happened to the picture of Rollins that was in the infobox? Looks like it got deleted or something... Justin Bailey 11:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and subject content. Currently it would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 02:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible insertion of error?

A certain IP address, 24.149.167.19, has been switching around what Wikipedia says is the order of albums for Black Flag (band); specifically, between Slip It In and Family Man (both released... sometime in 1984). I've tried to look up the specific dates of release on Amazon, on fan sites, etc., but I can't tell whether the version before this IP's edits or the version after is more correct. (Note: I originally reverted this IP on My War, because of the album order on Black Flag (band), but there's a reason why Wikipedia is not a reliable source on Wikipedia. More explicitly: citing articles from Wikipedia isn't going to help with this verification.) Does anyone familiar with the band have any thoughts about this, and could said people possibly rectify latent mistakes? Gracenotes^T § 03:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, that was me. I was trying to start a topic about it after I had already started editing. According to this page [1], the catalogue numbers state that "Family Man" was released before "Slip It In", while "Annihilate This Week" was released before "Wasted...Again", making it's release earlier than 1990. 24.149.167.19 04:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article Review of GA status

This article is being reviewed at WP:GA/R for possible delisting of its Good article status. Teemu08 07:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted

See the consensus reached here. If the problems cited are corrected, you may consider resubmitting it for a GA review. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RHCP's Flea

Wasn't Flea once part of Black Flag? Or did he just perform a few times with the band in the late 70's / early 80's? I have the strongest recollection he did, but I can't find any sources to support this. Does any have a clue? --Soetermans 22:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm 99% sure that Flea was never involved with Black Flag. I believe Flea was in Fear (another early hardcore act from LA), so maybe that's what you're thinking of? Justin Bailey 01:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right. Since Flea claims to be a huge fan of Black Flag, I must've mixed the two up. Thanks! --Soetermans 09:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)