Talk:Black Sox Scandal

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Is there a reason to have separate pages for the story of the fix and the story of the series? Aren't they the same story? Vidor 08:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, the Scandal and the series are note one in the same. The article about the 1919 World Series is to communicate the events of the series. The article about the scandal is to communicate the events and experiences surrounding the series. While there is some over lap, these are two separate issues. Similarly, there is an article for The Catch and another article for the 1954 World Series. // Tecmobowl 09:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"the Scandal and the series are note one in the same."--Yes they are. "The article about the 1919 World Series is to communicate the events of the series. The article about the scandal is to communicate the events and experiences surrounding the series."--Forgive me for not seeing any distinction whatsoever in those two hairs being split. "Similarly, there is an article for The Catch and another article for the 1954 World Series."--Holy cow, really? I'll have to propose merging those two articles today. There's an entire ARTICLE about Willie Mays's catch? About one play? Madness. Anyway...the story of the fix IS the story of the 1919 World Series. There's no distinction and no need whatsoever for separate articles. The two articles should be merged under "1919 World Series", with a redirect when people enter "Black Sox" or "Black Sox Scandal". Vidor 19:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not following your logic. It sounds to me more like you want to focus on arguing and berating people, rather than the facts. It is just by circumstance that I live within close proximity to one of the experts on the events of the Black Sox Scandal. Per the notes on the talk page for the 1919 World Series, it seems people are inclined to disagree with you. You might also want to review WP:NPA before continuing with your behavior. // Tecmobowl 01:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Logic? The logic is that there's no reason to have two redundant articles on the same event. Vidor 04:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Per Talk:1919 World Series, it would appear more people at this time agree with my perspective. I do not think it is beneficial to carry on this discussion at two places, please direct any further comments to the other talk page. // Tecmobowl 04:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Gedeon

I see Gedeon was deleted from the list of banned players, despite the fact that he was a major league baseball player at the time, and he was in fact banned as a result of the scandal. I will attempt to include this information again. Vidor 20:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• The whole "banned players" thing is really not well explained here. Technically, none of the players were banned from baseball. They were banned from playing professional baseball. You seem like an interested party, so perhaps you could work out some of the information. [1] is a site for you to use as a reference for information on Gedeon. I agree Gedeon needs some mention in the article. However, it is not appropriate to list banned players from other teams or anything of the sort. I'm in a bit of a hurry so for now, i have removed that section, but added a see also tag. // Tecmobowl 21:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Question 1: Why did you twice remove Gedeon from the article, if you believe he needs mention? Question 2: On what basis do you say that it's inappropriate to list banned players from other teams, and how does that correlate with your assertion above that Gedeon deserves mention in the article? Question 3: Are you aware that in another Wikipedia article, Joe Gedeon is listed as a player who was banned for life by Major League Baseball, specifically for his connection to the Black Sox scandal?
    I am indeed an interested party, which is why I would like to include Joe Gedeon, a player banned for his involvement in the Black Sox scandal, in this article. I will try for a third time to include Gedeon in the article. I will also make clear the distinction between being banned from baseball and banned from MLB that you draw. Vidor 21:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I have added Gedeon again, under a separate heading, and for consistency's sake I added Hal Chase, who was also banned by Landis and is also listed in the "banned players" article. Upon further review, I believe the article does expain "banned players" sufficiently well, as it specifies they were banned for life from Major League Baseball by Landis. Vidor 22:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I have obviously encouraged you to add information, but do not add him to this list, even though you have done a poor job of communicating the information, i do not care to get into any more of an edit war. It would appear you are not familiar with the actual events of the series, and judging by the fact that you believe the Scandal and the Series to be one in the same, perhaps we can leave this alone. I would love to add content to this article, but I frankly don't have the time because i'm working on a bunch of other ones. If someone has not taken the time to update this information in a manner that is indicative of what happened, i will be glad to help out. Please add sources for this material so that it can be left for now. In the meantime, i'll add facts. After that, i would ask that you leave this article alone until you have familiarized yourself with the topic to the point where you are able to edit this article. Nothing personal, it just needs to be correct. // Tecmobowl 23:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
        • Well, let's see. I am familiar with the information. I have read "Eight Men Out". Regarding sources, I see no need to add further sources, because the fact that Joe Gedeon was banned by Landis for betting on the Series was a matter of public record and adequately covered by the sources already in the article. See here, or here, or, for that matter, the Gedeon bio that you provided me, here. Or read the book "Eight Men Out". So your statement that I am not familiar with the events of the scandal is false. You have not offered any reasoning why Joe Gedeon should not be added to this article. He was an active major league baseball player who was banned from the game for knowledge of the fix, as were seven of the Eight Men Out (Gandil not being "active", since he played semi-pro ball in 1920). I will not leave this article alone, as I'm confident I know enough about the subject to participate. You have made an allusion to mentioning Gedeon in the article, but you did not state how you wanted Gedeon mentioned, and you did not mention him yourself, but removed him from the article completely. If you care to explain how you would like to see Gedeon mentioned in the article--any way that mentioned that he existed, that he was active as a second baseman for the Browns, and that he was banned by MLB--I'd be happy to change the article to make it as you prefer. Otherwise, we can possibly refer the "should Joe Gedeon be mentioned in the Black Sox Scandal" article to others, as I will not be leaving the article alone as you suggest. Vidor 00:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
        • Regarding Gedeon and Chase--Most websites I've been looking at today say that Chase was banned for life, as does the Wikipedia Hal Chase entry, but I found one site that said he was never officially banned. I have been looking and have not been able to find an OFFICIAL list of all players on baseball's ineligible list. Thus I have removed Chase from the page. As for Gedeon, I embedded an external link to the article that User:Tecmobowl provided, the SABR bio page that specifically states that Gedeon was banned for life by Landis from MLB. Removed the "citation needed" tag from that item. Vidor 01:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
        • You seem to be taking this personally and that is not of consequence. Who you are has nothing to do with it. The information is what is important, as i have said to everyone else, get the information correct, nothing else matters. Landis did not ban any of the players for life, or any other person for that matter. What he did was bar them from playing the game of baseball. There is much more to say about this, but you can find the short of this on black betsy (www.blackbetsy.com). Also, you might want to change the format for the Gedeon statement you included. Instead of using a wikipedia link format, it would be better suited to cite the information. This can be done with the <ref> and </ref> tags. I usually try the a variation of the {{citeweb}} template, but including the link itself would suffice. Again, i am working on some other articles, but will be happy to provide a well sourced reworking when i have the moment.// Tecmobowl 03:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of "Black Sox" section

The section on the origin of the "Black Sox" name should be removed. Besides its multiple qualifiers and weasel wording, it's still completely unsourced. A year old discussion on the Freakonomics blog tried to find a mention of the "Black Sox" name before the scandal, but all the evidence they found pointed to the conclusion that the origin of the name was the scandal. Nathanm mn 09:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree 100% that it needs to be sourced and rewritten. It does not need to be removed. Here is one secondary source (i believe that is the correct terminology): [2]. A primary source needs to be recovered at some point. Freakonomics discussion, while interesting doesn't prove anything one way or the other. // Tecmobowl 19:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

That discussion listed several primary sources they found, all of which support the name based solely on the scandal. None could be found supporting the dirty socks theory. Nathanm mn 20:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe Freakonomics should be included in this discussion. I'm not sure how a site on economics is counted as a reliable and respected source on the topic of baseball history. That being said, the topic of the term does have a place in the article. Even if that means it sticks to the approach that there is no confirmed origin. A mention could be then made that a seemingly popular theory is the dirty unifrom etc...etc... The FAQ's on Black Betsy could be used as the source. // Tecmobowl 21:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It isn't about Freakonomics, that's just the blog where it was talked about. Did you even read the discussion I linked to? Several people in the discussion did online and real world searches in newspapers, magazines, etc. to determine if the dirty socks theory had any support. Every article they found mentions the Black Sox name resulting from the scandal. Nathanm mn 02:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely read the blog. I will repeat what i said previously. That site should not be referenced. The section has a place in the article. The approach at this point is that it is not confirmed and there are several popular theories. // Tecmobowl 03:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)