Talk:Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit comments - comment history - watch comments · refresh this page) The health section is the one of the best I've seen in a dog article to date. The temperament section could be expanded. That section has a hint of anthropomorphism in a dog "presuming" something. Be mindful to not let this sort of tone slip into any expansions. Needs references. The appearance section should include more about the general appearance and build. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 22:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone just added a famous CKCS as "pet of Ocean Park", which leads to a dab page with 2 locations, not people. Can anyone clarify who "Ocean Park" is or is supposed to be? Elf | Talk 17:50, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think this is just vandalism or vanity, someone with this same IP also put in "Bert" as a pet of Maris Demosthenes, then reverted and added bert as a pet of "Ocean Park". Trysha 22:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Recent reversion 2 Least wolf-like? 3 Cavalier bred from King Charles? 4 Pic request 5 Blindness from Keratoconjunctivitis Sicca 6 Decree: source? 7 Temperament 8 Derivation of name Cavalier

[edit] Recent reversion

Regarding the just-removed text--a quick search on the web reveals a lot of info very similar to the material just removed (although better written), such as this:

Toy spaniels were well established at various courts in Europe as sporting dogs and pets before being brought to England in the sixteenth century. Although they reached the height of their popularity in the reign of Charles II, they were however great favourites at the courts of both Elizabeth I and Mary Queen of Scots, where they were used mostly as comforters. When Mary Queen of Scots returned to Scotland from France in 1561, she brought with her a number of sporting dogs. Shortly before her execution in the Great Hall at Fotheringay in 1587, one little dog, probably a favourite, slipped under Mary's skirts and was not discovered by the executioner until after her death. Charles I, who was rarely seen without his toy spaniels, shared his great love for the breed with his children, Charles II, Henrietta of Orleans and James II. It was Charles II who gave his name to the dogs (Cavaliers). [1]

So this info probably could be incorporated into this page. Elf | Talk 01:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Least wolf-like?

Just removed this: "The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is the most demesticated breed of dog in the world, meaning it is the least wolf-like." added by anon User:144.134.163.151. I have no idea what this means (in what way more unwolflike than other breeds?) and no references cited. Elf | Talk 20:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

A googled about and managed to pull up this study, which seems to be where the anon is drawing the conclusion. Interesting stuff, actually, and worth re-including in a revised form—it seems that the Cavalier was only the least wolflike of the ten breeds selected for the study. The Tom 21:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, seems that this info would be more suitable for an article like selective breeding or neotony or some such--I might (might) poke around at some point (when? --) and see what looks appropriate. Or I might not... Thanks for finding this, though; it *is* interesting, although it follows on the fox-breeding program from some time back that showed that breeding for people-friendliness aka puppy-like behavior also inadvertently bred for puppy-like anatomical features. Elf | Talk 21:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The article linked to by The Tom seems to be complete crap. This article is solid science, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?list_uids=15155949&db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract

and Cavaliers are included in the study. There are other breeds that seem to be genetically more distant from the wolf. Lord Kelvin 02:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cavalier bred from King Charles?

I thought the King Charles and Cavalier were separate attempts to recreate the 16th-17th century breed. The King Charles has characteristics such as fused toes, underbite and domed skull which make it seem unlikely that the Cavalier was bred from it. Unless someone has some evidence? -- Ian Dalziel 22:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Not quite, it was only the Cavalier that was an attempt to recreate the original breed. The original King Charles was different from both the modern KC and the CKC, it had smaller eyes than the modern KC and CKC and a longer snout than the modern KC. However, at some point during the 1800s the original KC was crossbred with the Pug, producing the modern KC. Some people were unhappy with the look of the modern KC and longed for a return to the original KC (as depicted in the paintings by Landseer), and a cash prize was offered by an American attending Crufts to anyone who could provide a KC "of the old type", using a Landseer painting as a guide to how it should look. This spurred a movement to "recreate" the original KC by crossing modern KCs with other dogs (perhaps a touch of Cocker Spaniel?), and the result of this was the Cavalier KC (although it took a while for it to receive this official designation). The one thing they didn't "restore" on the Cavalier were the smaller eyes of the original KC, the Pug's eyes remained on the Cavalier. If you're wondering why they ever departed from the original KC, it's possibly because Pugs had become very fashionable with the British Royal Family and had displaced the original KC from their affections. Perhaps the cross with the Pug was an attempt to get back into the good books of Royalty.

Interesting observations. There's definately a fair amount of cocker in the Cavalier's face (I've always felt that "Lady" from Lady and the Tramp looks neck-up more like a Cavalier than an American Cocker, but hey, blame the animators). I'm a little surprised to hear about the small eyes on the Landseer painting, mind you, as Cockers have big eyes, too, maybe just a smidgen shy of the proportions you see on Cavaliers.

One thing that I've always found interesting about my CKCs is that they have surprisingly long backs relative to their leg length, in fact, as spaniels go they strike me as the most "sausagey". This has prompted some idle speculation in my family that there may be some long-haired dachshund in the mix that was used to de-Puggify/Chinnify the breed in the past. I haven't seen that suggestion anywhere remotely academic, though. The Tom 20:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the large eyes remained because they were trying to concentrate on the main difference between the modern KC and the original KC, the flat snout. Once the snout was taken care of with the Cavalier, they seemed to stop trying to do any more "restoration work". I suspect many Cavalier owners would be horrified if someone nowadays suggested shrinking the large eyes which have become such a source of joy to so many of them.

[edit] Pic request

The photos on the page are all particularly great, but we do seem to be a bit Blenheim-heavy. Can everyone be on the lookout for usable shots of Tris, Rubies or B&Ts? The Tom 20:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, we need the other colours on here, otherwise readers might think that all Cavaliers are Blenheims.

- I have found images that seem to be suitable for this article. I'm about to upload them Wikipedia for this purpose.--Acelor 15:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure those are public domain? The Tom 20:01, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

- I am pretty positive they are, but if this is not the case, you may feel free to edit them out of the article. --Acelor 00:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blindness from Keratoconjunctivitis Sicca

I've had Cavaliers as pets for over a decade now and a majority of the time they suffer from Keratoconjunctivitis Sicca, but as far as I know and what my local vet says, this is harmless and does not lead to blindness in the dogs.

I think the medical section in general could do with a fair bit more citation. Cavaliers are certainly more prone to various inherited diseases than a lot of other dog breeds on account of their relatively narrowly-sourced gene pool, but this article gives the impression every Cavalier in existence is living on borrowed time. The Tom 22:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

A quick google shows your vet to be under-playing the potential damage associated with KCS. No, it's not guaranteed to cause blindness, but every veterinary source I could find online warns that without treatment corneal ulcers and scarring are expected and blindness not uncommon. Chuck 16:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Decree: source?

King Charles II went so far as to issue a decree that the King Charles Spaniel could not be forbidden entrance to any public place, including the Houses of Parliament.

According to everything I know and have read, this seems to be true... but does anyone know or have the original text/formulation of this decree? It's nice to see for every CKCS-owner (personally I'm very curious)and I think, of course, it's good to supply a reference by this statement as well.

--The Beagle 20:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temperament

I have bred Cavalier King Charles Spaniels three times and never has a dog bitten anyone, except a playful nibble. I would have to recommend these dogs. The only caution is that they are prone to back problems and dry eye.They are still exellent with children and are the ultimate lap dog.

Anonymous(Fuzzy Duckling)

Amen to all that, I used to be afraid of dogs but after meeting some Cavaliers I was totally converted, and now own three!

[edit] Derivation of name Cavalier

I am surprised by the suggestion that Cavalier is derived from King Charles. Cavalier simply means a horseman or horse-mounted soldier, with overtones of chivalry (same root - deriving from the Latin or cognate language word for "horse" - like "cheval" in French, and "chevalier" for knight or mounted fighting man or, going back to English, "cavalry" for horse-mounted troops). The English Civil War which toppled King Charles I is often characterised as a battle of "Cavaliers" and "Roundheads" i.e. of royalists (who were rich enough to be mounted) and Parliamentarians (who had distinctive helmets). No doubt that is why the combination "Cavalier King Charles" was chosen - it is all of a period piece. But I don't think Cavalier means "Charles" or "Prince Charles" or "King Charles". Anyone able to offer a source for this? Chelseaboy 18:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't say that it is derived from the name Charles, does it? It's just that "Cavalier" was an epithet applied to King Charles. The "King Charles" bit fairly obviously does refer to King Charles... -- Ian Dalziel 18:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The dogs were nicknamed King Charles' Cavalier because they follwed him everywhere he went. That is also why they are still allowed in public places. Cavalier - horse mounted soldier, is the true meaning of the word, but they don't ride alone. [A. James, Feb. 2007]

Would you have a source for any of that? -- Ian Dalziel 17:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)