Talk:Cave Clan

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This article was nominated for deletion on July 4th, 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

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Contents 1 NPOV 2 Cave Clan Logo 3 Merging of Il Draino into Cave Clan 4 More NPOV 5 References 6 Current efforts to reach concensus 7 Points to open for discussion / compromise

[edit] NPOV

After coming across this article whilst doing a routine clean up of Australian fringe and underground culture I found this to be in breach of Wiki's NPOV policies. I am removing the offending paragraphs rather than posting an NPOV call on it as this article has no discussion base and is therefore not worth the time of higher administrators.

The organization has branches in most states of Australia and in a few other countries. Unlike traditional caving groups they do not limit their activities to natural cavities.

Non-NPOV, opinion of the author, Cave Clan is primarily a Melbourne and Sydney based group with a chapter opening more recently in Adelaide. Whilst cave clan members may travel the globe, this does not indicate they have opened a new chapter by exploring with international urbex groups.

There have also been schisms, with groups splitting off from the Cave Clan, though none of these splinter groups seem to have made as great an impact.

Again a non-NPOV opinion of the author.

The organisation does not vandalise areas it explores, and has an excellent safety record; no one has ever been killed during Cave Clan activities.

• Below section edited

I am removing this as the Cave Clan are notorious for their drain graffiti in Sydney and Melbourne and are actively persued by the police forces of afforementioned states for their behaviour.

Also, the citation of the safety record of excellence should also be removed as part of this as it is false and misleading, there have been numerous accidents involving Cave Clan members, from one being hit whilst emerging from a manhole in Sydney, to more recently a month ago when Sydney Cave Clan broke into Australia's Wonderland (theme park) and committed break and enter on one of the rides, the 'Space Probe' in an attempt to abseil it which led to one man falling ten meters and breaking his spine in numerous places.

The abovementioned information is entirely incorrect. As such it is as much NPOV as the NPOV this user is trying to correct.

• End Edit.

The Cave Clan has been the subject of many unfounded rumours throughout its existence, including allegations of criminal activity and ritual behaviour. These rumours have all proven to be baseless.

The relevance of this passage is moot and will also be removed.

The Cave Clan publishes a photocopied zine named "Il Draino". This zine may be obtained from the Cave Clan or from various alternative and countercultural bookshops in Australia, and includes photographs taken in underground formations. Additionally, stickers with the Cave Clan's postal address (PO Box 268, Abbotsford, Victoria, Australia) and the pseudonyms of Clan members appear from time to time in public spaces. It is rumoured that the Cave Clan or some of its members are connected to the profusion of stickers reading "This Is A Heavy Product". In Il Draino and interviews, Cave Clan members have claimed that they are merely the latest in a long tradition of Australian urban and underground exploration, dating back decades before the founding of the organisation.

Advertising and a reference to illegal activity, also Cave Clan is not a registered or aknowledged organisation in Australia.

Jachin 21:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• If you have citations of accidents, by all means put them in rather than merely deleting content. And it doesn't look like advertising; there is no information there that is not publicly available on the organisation's site. Furthermore, Australia, as a liberal democracy, does not require organisations to be registered to not be considered illegal.

You may disapprove of the Cave Clan, but that does not make acknowledging its existence against Wikipedia policy. Acb 12:05, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Acb, having an organisation list as a running incident report of the organisation is futile. In the best interests of Wikipedia a NPOV and accurate article should be provided, not a generic rambling advert for an organisation or group, that is what this article was.

It was up for a clean-up, the clean-up was carried out. By reverting the article and adding a mere quip in the discussion page does nothing to the fact that the clean-up will be reverted until more relevant information is provided in a manner which meets a better standard.

In that case, please justify your reasoning for:

• deleting information about the Cave Clan's long-running zine (which has been established since the 1980s, and thus is notable in any discussion of the organisation)
• deleting information about the This Is A Heavy Product stickers, which are notable enough to have their own article.

Furthermore, your edits have reduced the quality of the article by removing context (i.e., before "One pioneer of this tradition"; the edited article does not say anything about the tradition).

As such, I am reverting the article to a previous form (with edits to make it more NPOV-compliant). Acb 14:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Acb, your edit of the article is whimsical at best. It's purely a reinstatement of the same details all over again, the paraphrasing is minimal. I will address each issue as written: -

Founded in Melbourne by three teenagers, the Cave Clan has been in operation since January 26, 1986; -- References?

• This could be changed to "claimed to be founded". Though I have seen issues of Il Draino from the 1980s (printed on a Commodore dot-matrix printer), so the general age of the group can be shown to be in that range, and there's no reason that they would lie about a specific date. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

though the Cave Clan remains the best-known Australian urban exploration group -- No references of supportive evidence, purely opinion based.

• OK, "best known" -> "most prominent". On the weight of media references (there have been lots of references to the Cave Clan in publications like The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald), and profile (there have been prominent Cave Clan stickers in Melbourne since the 1980s, which counts as high profile).

In its publications and radio interviews, Cave Clan members have claimed that they are merely the latest in a long tradition of Australian urban and underground exploration, dating back decades before the founding of the organisation. -- Again, merely an instance of opinion with no factual evidence.

• It is a fact that they have claimed this in publications and radio interviews. The veracity or otherwise of the claims is another matter, but IMHO it is a noteworthy claim. If anybody knows about Australian urban exploration traditions, it would be people involved in such. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The existence of such a tradition would be in character with the Australian larrikin ideal. -- Opinion of author, I don't see how it has anything to do with the larrikin ideal what so ever, there is also no substantiating evidence linking Cave Clan to such.

• You don't see how the tradition of going where one is not supposed to in cities on a whim, with disregard for the established rules and authorities, has to do with larrikinism? I think it's pretty obvious. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan publishes a photocopied zine named "Il Draino", which has been in publication since the 1980s. This zine may be found in various alternative and countercultural bookshops in Australia, and includes photographs taken in underground formations. -- Vanity publication of photocopied rags isn't considered something worth mentioning when dealing with groups, for example, many religious groups put out professionally produced works promoting their organisations beliefs and so on, yet it's significance of reference in their articles is moot and trivial.

• The "photocopied rag" has been going since the 1980s. I have seen evidence of this. And other "photocopied rags", or zines as they're known, are notable enough for Wikipedia. There is nothing in Wikipedia policies restricting its remit to "official" or "legitimate" organisations. As such, I assert that, in reference to an article about the Cave Clan, a photocopied zine the organisation has run for over a decade is relevant. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan is best known for printing stickers (typically on business sticker stock, using a computer printer) and attaching them to public surfaces. The stickers often bear Cave Clan's postal address and the pseudonyms of Clan members appear. Some stickers also bear the names of ostensible factions of the Cave Clan, such as "Grumpy Old Drainers". - What Cave Clan is 'best known' for would not be stickers, from my reading on the organisation before doing the clean up of this article it appears they are better known for their vandalism of historical sites and their subterranian graffiti.

• Firstly, saying that they're "best known for vandalism" is more POV than saying that they're "best known for stickers". The stickers are more prominently visible, and "vandalism" is subjective. The purpose of Wikipedia is to describe, not denounce.

Secondly, do you have citations on incidents of "vandalism of historic sites"? If so, please put them in the "controversy" section. (Please do; the article needs more informed criticism of the group.) Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

It is also rumoured that the Cave Clan or some of its members are connected to the profusion of stickers reading "This Is A Heavy Product", though these differ significantly from the usual Cave Clan stickers. -- Rumours have no purpose or substantiating reason to be included in this article. Wikipedia is based on fact, not 'rumours'.

Past Clannies have been held in underground chambers. -- Ambiguous comment not worth including in the article.

• You're right; it is a bit redundant. Anyway, it's gone now. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan claims to have an excellent safety record (one rule, printed on stickers, is "when it rains, no drains"), though this has been disputed. Cave Clan members have made statements discouraging inexperienced youth from going into drains. -- Two months ago Cave Clan members broke into a closed down amusement park in Sydney which resulted in one man falling and breaking his spine in multiple places, they then attempted to move this person and get him to climb down to avoid an incident with the authorities. I think rather than exhibiting each and every incident where someone has been greviously injured would be too verbose and instead this paragraph should be removed, as it originally was in the clean-up.

• Do you have a reference for this incident? If so, please put it in. I think that debate of the Cave Clan's safety record is relevant. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan has publicly distanced itself from vandalism; however, Clan members have written graffiti in drains and related areas. Some Cave Clan members have been involved in the graffiti scene; the most notable of these is 1980s aerosol artist "Hugh Dunit". -- Again, publically distancing itself is opinion,

• Stating that it has publicly distanced itself is fact.

it is notorious for it's vandalism which is evident in almost every photograph to be found on cave clan related sites.

• That looks rather like a point of view. "vandalism" is a subjective term.

It's connection to the '1980's aerosol artist has no references or sustainable connection and therefore again is opinion. Considering the organisation 'started' in the late 80's one would assume all reference to '1980's is also moot and appears more to be self glorification.

• How do you mean "self-glorification"? Hugh Dunit's "pieces" have been visible in Melbourne since the 1980s (there was one in the Corner Hotel car park, for example), and have been pretty prominent, and sometime later, his name ended up on Cave Clan stickers and publications, and Cave Clan logos next to Dunit's pieces/tags. For an article on underground culture, this is pretty strong primary evidence. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The Cave Clan has been the subject of many rumours throughout its existence, including allegations of criminal activities and ritual behaviour. These rumours have not been substantiated. -- The only place I have found allegations of 'rumours' about these things is on the Cave Clan websites and in related interviews on talk back radio stations, et cetera. It is opinion only, totally ubsubstantiated and appears more of an instance of the organisation wishing to appear more illustrious and deeper than it is. Again, not something for Wikipedia.

• OK, I'll give you this one.

This article is seriously lacking, it appears more to be a vanity article by various group members than a serious Wikipedia entry.

• There are bits of that there. Though one has to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Jachin 06:25, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I have no connection with the Cave Clan, other than having read a few copies of Il Draino and heard interviews on PBS. I am as concerned about providing an impartial and complete article about the Cave Clan, which IMHO constitutes a notable part of Australian underground culture (in both senses of the word). The thing I disagree with is the approach of cutting out most of the article; when dealing with underground subjects, one does not have the luxury of having official sources to work with. The great strength of Wikipedia is its ability to cover subjects under the radar of more traditional and centrally controlled publications, and it would be absurd to reject information about an underground cultural phenomenon on the grounds that the traditional media have not acknowledged it. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

i've been watching this article for quite some time and agree with the npov / relevancy / uncited issues youve raised jachin. don't take rv's to heart, you're doing a great job cleaning up some of the fringe articles it seems. keep up the good work mate, i'll rv the changes back to your last peer review in 24 hours if there's no functional contributory address by Acb on the topic clearing the above points up. looks like a vanity page to me by a group of mates. Adam249 08:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• See above. Acb 09:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleaned up some mis-information & added content.

BB

Sorry, don't know how to add text :(

The website that is used as referencing (including the emails it shows) are all more than ten years old, heavily edited, and taken out of context.

The Il Drainos are all about ten years or older (Il Draino has not been a Cave Clan newsletter for a few years).

The whole "running" thing was a joke. There have been gay people in the Cave Clan way before there was uer.ca. I openly joke with gay friends I have and they dish it out, however I also understand that we have matured a lot since the late 80s and early 90s.

It's also rather convenient how there are no scans of the dozens of articles where I am paid out on or teased. Half the comments that are referred to as "harrassment" were made amongst friends.

The funny thing is that one of the reasons Felon was kicked out of the Clan is because he was homophobic (circa 1996).

Anyway, I'm losing my train of thought.

I'm just trying to say that the 'homophobic' entry is out of date, taken out of context, and also takes humour amongst a small bunch of friends and associates and tries to make us look like a branch of the Nazi party.

I'll delete it whenever I see it. I'm sick of trying to 'edit' it.

Cheers,

Doug —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.57.147 (talk) .

[edit] Cave Clan Logo

• Hey Doug, I dumped the Modern Cave Clan logo on the page as it seemed like the right thing to do. However feel free to scratch it :) .... --Fec 06:31, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Fec, Looks like someone else added it back. They must like the Inner Circle version? ;) Doug

• Hey man, na what i meant by "dumped" was that i put it up. The modern version was done by a Sydney member called TeaCup a couple of years back. Just thought you may want it up here. If you have a good copy of the old version, you should post it up too. BTW, TeaCuP said way back that he's happy for everyone to distribute his work however they see fit. p.s. when TeaCup originally designed it, he didn't have any ulterior motives in mind, i think he just wanted to do something for the clan and his best skill was design. --Fec 07:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, cool. I get you.

Cheers,

Doug.

[edit] Merging of Il Draino into Cave Clan

I am going to put my word in that the article Il Draino should be merged into the Cave Clan article as its own header. The magazine was produced soleby the organization, Cave Clan, and is a subset that really does not deserve its own seperate page. Seicer (talk) 17:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More NPOV

This article seems to get less and less neutral as time goes on. I don't feel that I know enough about the Cave Clan to say what exactly is true and what is false, but there are few facts listed and the article is far from neutral. I am thus tagging it as noncompliant and in need of a clean-up. -- hibou 08:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not having this bullshit blamed on me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.191.168 (talk) .

This article needs sources and facts, as well as a general clean-up -- the controversy section isn't the only one in need of work. Blanking sections you don't agree with doesn't improve the article and I have reverted your changes. Please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus articles should not be biased either for the Cave Clan or against them. You can read more about bias and NPOV at WP:NPOV. By the way, if you would like to continue editing this article or anything else in Wikipedia, it would help if you created a user account. Thanks. hibou 11:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Prove it or loose it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.10.224.61 (talk) .

Well I've cleaned up the Controversy section and added sources. It would be nice if another wikipedian could take a look at it before the NPOV tag comes down. I've also deleted the following for lack of sources:

The Cave Clan, and Doug / Michael Douglas in particular have had a long standing policy to dominate Urban Exploration in Australia. Tactics used by the Cave Clan include:

• Eradication of information about other Urban Exploration groups, such as the removal of the Wikipedia article about the Sydney Tunnel Rats.
• Discrediting of rival Urban Exploration groups. Providing false information about them. Beating up negative reports about them such as claiming the Sydney Tunnel Rats were part of a Neo Nazi group when one member was caught with Urban Exploration equipment in his car during the Cronulla Riots.
• Discrediting of individual Urban Explorers using several methods such as through the IlDraino magazine, through deliberate and systematic spreading of rumours, graffiti on drain walls, negative comments on web sites, negative comments on web forums and more.
• Deliberate use of innuendo and slurs, claiming that Urban Explorers are gay, child molesters or similar.
• Deliberate discrediting and down playing the achievements of rival Urban Exploration groups and individuals such as falsely claiming that Cave Clan did things first or that the groups or individuals were inspired by Cave Clan activities.
• Threats to harm and threats to kill Urban Explorers. Many of these threats were made against Sydney Urban Explorers including Predator. Doug even attempted to kill Predator, who later published a chilling account of the attempt on his web site cat.org.
• Painting of pictures depicting the death of Urban Explorers.

The Cave Clan have also repeatedly removed negative comment about them from this Wikipedia article, such as removal of reference to their anti-gay activities. Early editions of their Ildraino Magazine contain numerous articles where they vilify gays and attack members of the Sydney and Melbourne Cave Clan. The editor, Doug, makes numerous immature personal attacks against explorers such as Leeon, Edgar, Predator, Alien, Bob, Panic, Gilligan, Ratty and more.

As deletion is a part of the stated controversy, I thought this was worth conserving here. -- hibou 12:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There you go, all refrenced. It's not my job to stick them in neat. I just paste the facts. You can go format that as you wish. Everything verifiable. Go have a look at the links. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.191.179 (talk) .

Ok I'll work on incorporating the information you've added. However please keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus should present information neutrally. -- hibou 15:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added much of the information you've provided. The info about graffiti is in the Graffiti section. The info about "Attempts to dominate Urban Exploration in Australia" is in the Controversy section. Some notes & questions:

• for Il Draino condoning tagging... it would be good if the exact date or year(s) were provided.
• you wrote: "Eradication of information about other Urban Exploration groups, such as the removal of the Wikipedia article about the Sydney Tunnel Rats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Acb" but from reading Doug's comments what I understand is that he deleted the link to the Tunnel Rats article, not the article itself.
• Also on the Tunnel Rats: the wikipedia article is about the Vietnam soldiers who went by that name. I presume that the urbex group Tunnel Rats took the name in homage, but their is no article specifically about them. Feel free to create one.
• In relation to the following statements... I have no access to the original article and don't quite understand the situation; I also have no way of telling who is in which group without reading more of the forum than I'd like to. But anyway I'm not sure Wikipedia is the place for who accused who of what.

"Discrediting of rival Urban Exploration groups: Beating up negative reports about them such as claiming the Sydney Tunnel Rats were part of a Neo Nazi group when one member was caught with Urban Exploration equipment in his car during the Cronulla Riots.

"Cave Clan member Siologen states "I dont know for sure if Val of The Tunnel Rats was indeed involved in organised white power groups. Either way he was very stupid doing what he did, and it has been made worse by the fact the media have now started using him as an example and scapegoat." http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthread.asp?fid=3&threadid=26075&currpage=1&pp#post12"

• & In relation to the following statement... the source you site seems to be a personal conflict between the two people or groups, and doesn't adequately support the statement. Other sources would be needed.

"Deliberate discrediting and down playing the achievements of rival Urban Exploration groups and individuals such as falsely claiming that Cave Clan did things first or that the groups or individuals were inspired by Cave Clan activities. http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/copyright/copyright.htm"

• In relation to Il Draino publishing racist material, you provide no sources.

So I think that's everything. The clean-up tag can probably come down but it would be nice if another Wikipedian could look this over before the NPOV tag comes down too. -- hibou 17:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh well, in all fairness the comments in the cave clan magazine are not necessarily representative of all of the Cave clan. They are mostly representative of Doug. This text file clearly shows that Sydclan didn't get much into IlDraino. http://therealcaveclan.tripod.com/yp55.txt. Probably not a good idea to generalise. Perhaps use "elements of the cave clan"

Shit, a lot of Sydney people have been editing this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.191.10 (talk) .

Sorry, don't know how to add text :(

The website that is used as referencing (including the emails it shows) are all more than ten years old, heavily edited, and taken out of context.

The Il Drainos are all about ten years or older (Il Draino has not been a Cave Clan newsletter for a few years).

The whole "running" thing was a joke. There have been gay people in the Cave Clan way before there was uer.ca. I openly joke with gay friends I have and they dish it out, however I also understand that we have matured a lot since the late 80s and early 90s.

It's also rather convenient how there are no scans of the dozens of articles where I am paid out on or teased. Half the comments that are referred to as "harrassment" were made amongst friends.

The funny thing is that one of the reasons Felon was kicked out of the Clan is because he was homophobic (circa 1996).

Anyway, I'm losing my train of thought.

I'm just trying to say that the 'homophobic' entry is out of date, taken out of context, and also takes humour amongst a small bunch of friends and associates and tries to make us look like a branch of the Nazi party.

I'll delete it whenever I see it. I'm sick of trying to 'edit' it.

Cheers,

Doug —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.57.147 (talk) .

Hello Doug --

Let me start by saying that I have no bias for or against the Cave Clan. I don't know any of you personaly. I'm approaching this as a Wikipedia editor trying to write the best possible article.

In regards to the Il Draino references being years old, if you can provide the dates and issue numbers, I'll cite that too. I think the facts will speak for themselves but it's also possible to add something to the affect that these views are no longer held amongst most members of the Cave Clan, etc. If you have something on your website stating that you are not homophobic, sexist, racist, ageist, etc (though these kind of disclamers are more popular in the US I think) we could cite that too.

Basically the opinion here on Wikipedia is to try to let the facts stand for themselves as much as possible. That also means that you can't just summarily delete things you don't agree with, especially without replacing them with anything. The best solution is to "include all different significant theories" -- see WP:NPOV for more info on this and bias. Thanks -- hibou 22:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

why can outlandish claims be refrenced to http://therealcaveclan.tripod.com when after clicking on this refrence this site dosen't exist. It has apparently violated the hosts terms and conditions. talk about bias, fictional sites with fictional refrences, apparently that is ok for wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contributions/ ([[User talk:|talk]]) 60.224.3.12

- - - -

Howdy Hibou,

Sorry if I sound a bit annoyed, but it's a bit frustrating.

In reply to - "you can't just summarily delete things you don't agree with, especially without replacing them with anything. The best solution is to "include all different significant theories"

It's not that I don't agree with them, it's that they are NOTHING to do with the Cave Clan, and the information source is wrong/taken out of context.

What percentage of the population is homophobic? I bet you the percentage is a lot higher than that of the Cave Clan.

So basically I can make up some fake magazines saying that Coca Cola adds cats piss to its product, set up a crappy website and then use the information in the site as reference.

It's just ridiculous!

Anyone that reads Il Draino knows that it is mostly a parody and not to be taken serious (if you saw the whole mag this would be very obvious).

Most of the people that were “harassed” deserved what they got, but I’m not going to write an explanation for each and every person (7 people out of the thousands that have been in the Cave Clan over the last 20 years)… I won’t satisfy the fool that is spreading this crap – he’s been doing it for more than 5 years now.

You want me to write something to replace what I delete? If I wrote everything that was on par with a joke or someone getting teased, it would take me years to write everything down.

We made up stickers saying we chop people’s fingers off if they don’t put the stickers up… you better add that. One of our members was sentenced for murder in 1989 while another overdosed on heroin in 1990, you better mention that we are known to associate with murderers and junkies. Some of us fart as well so you may want to mention that.

My point is can’t we just report on the facts and keep it to the point of what the Cave Clan is, and not what every single member does or thinks (or what their farts smell like :)?

If you want to say that I made the mildest form of homophobic jokes in the 1980s and early 90s, then make a separate Wiki entry, but please add that I’ve always had gay friends and that I stick up for them more than many people do.

There you go. That’s it. I hope it makes sense because I’m really tired at the moment.

Stay Well,

Doug

PS. The person who set up that Tripod website states that the Cave Clan only stopped being homophobic when UER.ca came about – Out of the hundreds of current members in the Clan about 10 are on UER and only 3 visit the site or post to it so that is also a load of rubbish.

Also (I won't be long now) - I'd like to point out that everything I've done has been in public in my name. It would be good if the person making these accusations would do the same.

- - - -

I just read over the material that the anonymous one wrote above.

I tried to kill Predator... hahaha! If you call grabbing the scruff of someone's shirt trying to kill them, fine.

I would also like to point out that Pred gave as good as he got and that we well and truly sorted out our problems. I hate saying this because he has since died of cancer so he can't respond, but in his book he states that on his last visit he came to Melbourne and visited three people to "say goodbye". I was one of them.

Regarding the people that were "harassed" - "Leeon, Edgar, Predator, Alien, Bob, Panic, Gilligan, Ratty and more." Leeon (Felon) was a racist and homophobe. Edgar was a joke that went too far - I consider myself friends with Edgar nowadays as do most of the people that used to stir him up. Alien was just a personality conflict, but she copped way more stirring than she should have. Bob and Gilligan... you could add another 50 or so people to Bob and Gilligan (including myself) that were made to look (or sound like fools)... to this day we still stir each other up (I've known Gilligan for 18 years and Bob for 12). Ratty. The simple fact was that hardly anyone liked him - it happens. The only "harassment" he received was when he quit he made a shrine and photos of it were published in Il Draino (he tried to make out that the reason he was not liked was because he was gay even thought there were two other gay members at the time).

Tunnel Rats... Nazis... I only know what I hear through the grapevine. I have nothing to do with them so you're way off track there. As far as me (well mainly me) trying to control the scene and ruin other groups - rubbish. Prove it.

As I have said before, everything I say is in my name in the view of everyone that wishes to read it. You could only use all the information from Il Draino (that was taken out of context) because I put my name to it. The handful of people that were kicked out of the Clan due to problems were asked to leave. I don't hide behind my computer.

This whole subject is a total load of rubbish and a waste of time.

Thanks

Doug

Hibou,

the below is not in line with the group and cannot be supported by facts:

Controversy The Cave Clan has been accused of homophobia, specifically in relation to targeting certain members and making anti-gay comments in their newsletter, Il Draino [5]. Certain issues of Il Draino also contained personal attacks, threats, and attempts to discredit other urban explorers or "rival" urban exploration groups [6]. The Cave Clan have stated many times that though they have the word Clan in their name, they have no relation to the Klu Klux Klan and are not in any way racist. The Cave Clan produced a number of stickers stating "The Cave Clan say fuck the Klu Klux Klan," which they put up around Melbourne.

and as quoting Wikipedia's own statement: To be compliant, it must be written from a neutral point of view and must not include unverifiable or unsuitable material, or original research.

- I point specifically to the words unverifiable and unsuitable which you include in your edit without much thought to its actual meaning.

Also to a lesser extent, the references blatantly point to your website (all 5 of them!!! And they point nowhere...) and there clearly is no reference to Cave Clan there, or any information that can be deemed informative to its Wikipedia explanation.

You are obviously trying to give the Cave Clan a bad name from this content, please refrain from doing so. My 'blanking' was a way of removing your ill-informed content and returning it to its original and accepted state, and I will modify any further biased inputs you take based on Wikipedia best practices.

And further reading the first 6-8 paragraphs in this section... they sound like a conversation you had with yourself, signing in and out of Wikipedia and writing in stupid supporting claims to provide as 'evidence' to your postings. Please if you think people are that dumb to accept everything they read as gospel then there's something going on inside of you that's not all there.

Can i ask 'Husond' or another respective Wikipedia admin to remove the protected status so I can now perform minor edits to fix the above as I now know not to 'blanket' out the content, but instead perform these 'minor edits'. Apologies for doing this in the recent past.

Also can I request either DougCC or myself be admin people or the like for this entry (if there is such a thing), so there is in it correct and valid content that correctly reflects The Cave Clan.

Looking forward to further 'talk' and your rebuttal on the above statements. Dmnscar 09:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Another call for the nameless one called J... hibou, c'mon kid let's put this argument to rest by talking it out, about stupid entries like homophobia, personal attacks/threats made, and the childish description of our fight against the kkk... Geesh I feel like i'm back in primary or high school arguing with some demented kid 'you do', 'you are'.

But i'll keep sticking it out, not going to let this get away Dmnscar 10:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

As above writing; hibou is falsely writing stupid entries in this page, especially in the Controversy section. Can this page be unprotected. I don't know the right way to request this page to be unprotected so if this is not sufficient info please let me know. Thanks.

First off, let me state again that I have nothing at all against the Cave Clan. Actually I respect your organization and the ways in which you've expanded the scope of urban exploration. I didn't mean do get caught in the middle of this battle, but here I am. What I've been concerned about, from the beginning, is creating an honest and neutral article.

I understand that you think the article, as it stands now, is biased. I don't know what to do about this: you say one thing, other people say another; I was looking for middle ground, and as you can see above, I've only kept what can be backed up with references. I consider http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/stuff/ildraino/caveclan.htm to be a valid source because it contains scans of the Cave Clan journal Il Draino. I think I've mentioned this before, but it would be great if you guys could site your own sources explicitly stating whatever it is you want to say, i.e. that you're not homophobic, etc. This kind of disclaimer could easily go somewhere on your website and then be quoted on wikipedia.

As for editing the article as it currently stands, or getting it unlocked, not even I can do that. You need to apply to an admin. I am not an admin. You can also apply for mediation, which would bring in a 3rd party wikipedian who would look at all the different edits and sources and points of view and try to help rewrite the article. You can request mediation at WP:RFM. Again, I have nothing against the Cave Clan and only want to see the best possible article written. Thanks -- hibou 19:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The page was protected to prevent edit wars -- the idea is, if nobody can change the page, you're all essentially forced to come on this talk page and discuss things as reasonably as possible. If we're still saying the people we disagree with are "falsely writing stupid entries," it doesn't seem like the sort of reasonable discussion that would lead to consensus about a proper page version. The protection isn't intended to last indefinitely, but it is designed to prevent people reverting up and down the street. I personally would recommend contacting User:Husond (the admin who protected the page), or making a request at the "unprotection" section of WP:RFPP. You can also ask me, and I might be willing to do a "trial unprotect" to see what happens, since it's been awhile, but I'd need to see some commitment to reasonable discussion, first, before looking into that too deeply. Luna Santin 20:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

And I'm sorry Luna Santin, you're trying to go by the Wikipedia ethics and keeping the NPOV alive and well throughout the entries in Wikipedia but for this one page you are being sucked in big time by the highly biased user hibou.

Anyways I'll keep looking around to get this page unprotected, contacting Luna Satin or Husond. Thanks Dmnscar 23:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm starting to repeat myself, but it looks like you're not going to believe me anyway. I am not Jason, that is not my website, I have nothing against the Cave Clan; I have never met any of you and have never begun a law suit against you. I have never even been to Australia. If you don't believe me do an IP check, you'll at least see that I'm not in Australia. You can even go back and read this talk page from start to finish, and you'll see that I've been trying to find some middle ground here, something unbiased. You can easily see that it wasn't me who posted the original 'controversy,' I'm just the person who stood for keeping that which has sources, rather than blanking it. -- hibou 12:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No worries, I'm off my high-horse now, sense is seeping back into me... hehe. Apologies to you hibou for the angry comments as before. As mentioned below in the References section, the CC will work on creating some references to counter and quash the Controversy, it seems simple references (webpages) are what Wikipedia admin people are after more than ever to support what is written in the reference pages, so be it. Cheerio! Dmnscar 13:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Hey Hibou, here's a new page to refrence for some of the links / refrences on the articles: http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/stuff/caveclan.htm It is so funny that it links back here. It is so amusing to watch these two fight. I want to take bets on who will win. But I can't take an each way bet on them both loosing. Arguing on the Internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win you’re still retarded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RomePrince (talk • contribs).

Thanks for the info, I've replaced the dead tripod references with this. I've also gotten rid of the clean-up tag, because I don't think the article needs it anymore. -- hibou 10:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Arguing over something on Wikipedia is a bigger waste of time especially when the person editing it doesn't listen to logic.

Anyone that reads this crappy Cave Clan entry will soon see it for what it is (if they bother to dig deeper, and let's face it, who will) - one ex-member holding a grudge over something as ingignificant as exploring drains. Get over it Jason for Christ's sake.

No wonder Wikipedia's reputation is going to the dogs if this is a typical example.

Stay well,

--DougCC 13:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)Doug

Hibou,

Further stating about the references:

They blatantly point to your website (all 5 of them!!! And they point nowhere...) and there clearly is no reference to Cave Clan there, or any information that can be deemed informative to its Wikipedia explanation.

Looking forward to further 'talk' and your rebuttal on the above. Dmnscar 09:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello hibou, are you there????

Awaiting some form of comeback from your fine self about above points.

And when can this page be un-protected so the correct entry can be entered; please this is going beyond a joke having this page buggered by one disgruntled kid. Dmnscar 10:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Damien stop bugging Hibou. He probably does not give a crap about this argument. Also you have wrongly attributed the links to his web site. He does not run that site, Panic does. Also, it's the New Year. He's probably on holiday and will get get back to you when and if he gets back to you. Finally, if you are reffering to Panic, he's clearly not a kid. Read his web page.

Doug, get Simon or whoever edits the website to change the http://www.caveclan.org/aboutus.html link to http://www.caveclan.org/about.html so it will pick up the link from here. Throw up a statement saying the Cave Clan is fully supportive of gay explorers and has limited support of graffiti or only supports it in tunnels. Use the link from here that is provided. Issue a genuine sounding public apology on CaveClan.org for anyone you or the Cave Clan have pissed off through your / Cave Clan actions. Then they will look like idiots if they still keep on with it. Refrence that apology / statement here. Refrences are what counts. Make the statement then source it properly. Learn to use the system. Don't dis the messenger man. Leave Hibou alone. He's just playing the part of mediator in a battle he'd probably rather not deal with.

UrbanExplorer 08:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes you're right, I've been taking this the wrong way. Apologies to hibou wherever you are, I just get miffed when the 'homophobia' and other crap stuff gets written and is attributed to the CC. I think me and the internet talking thingie don't mix at times... Where's the ole phone gone? :)

Anyways yes the website needs some editing to counter the Controversy content, references is worth gold i suppose in this Wikipedia world... let's see what we can do. Dmnscar 13:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Dmnscar will you please, please shut the hell up? You are embaresing Urban Explorers worldwide and the Cave Clan in particular. Shut up, think before you post and check your facts before you post. Don't the Cave Clan have a media policy to shut people like you up? UrbanExplorer 19:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record I should state that I have met with both Doug and Panic, I have explored with both Doug and Panic but I am not either Doug or Panic. UrbanExplorer 07:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I think time has long passed for this site to be in a state of unprotected, please admin people make it so and give this site a state of progressionism for future updates. Thanks :) 203.113.233.232 13:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Err, who are you to ask? No more anonymous posts please. UrbanExplorer 02:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It is now semiprotected. Please stop the squabbling on this talk page, and do not allow it to spill over onto the article. Proto::► 15:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

To clarify - try and come to a conclusion about what should be in the article here, on the talk page, before edit warring over it. If edit wars start up again, the article will be protected again (and I'll revert back to the current version, so any attempts to sneak edits in without agreement will not work). Proto::► 15:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Well it looks like the CC page is not protected anymore... nice, ta muchly for that.

And as for the one-and-the-same users UrbanExplorer and hibou; there is definitely some writing techniques that you have similar to each other, and to the historical Panic! that lives on, at the moment I hear you are doing a round-the-world trip, going to OPEX as well at some time...

Anyways, some statements are to be made:

— The round-the-world trip explains hibou not having an IP address coming from Australia.

— And also, obviously you are not DougCC as he is a unique user. You cannot prove you are not Panic!, probably because you are...

— Users UrbanExplorer and hibou are the same person (Panic!)

Ok, now off to do some research to put in some References about the CC and to remove the stupid ones that call the CC 'Homophobic' et al. Seeya! Dmnscar 11:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What nonsense. I am not Panic and I am not UrbanExplorer. Compare out IPs. More proof: you say this guy Panic is moving around, but I have been staying in the same place. Again, check my IP from time to time. Anyway read what Proto said: if you start blanking the page again it will be reverted and locked, again. Wikipedia isn't for advertising, it's an encyclopedia. Why don't you do what you said you were going to do. To quote you: "Anyways yes the website needs some editing to counter the Controversy content, references is worth gold i suppose in this Wikipedia world... let's see what we can do." That would be a good place to start, and then the article could be edited to include what's said on your website. -- hibou 09:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Blanking this page is not my intent, correct info being presented is, thanks for trying that one out against me. I have read up and learnt some more on Wikipedia processes and procedures and am doing things along these lines. Also it would seem out of place to reference my own personal website to support a claim or statement I make, unlike what you have done. Please read below for more... :)

Also, please remember: as for what I believe and hold true; hibou and UrbanExplorer are one and the same user, and is the same person as: Panic!, Gunny, Jason Chapman (real name) and even Johnathan Littell[1] (New York-based science fiction author [not the person of course, but the name]). For all these aka's to the same real person, I'll refer to him as Panic! as this is his most popular known name to him, and it is what he calls himself on his own website[2] (see disclaimer at bottom of page).

And... here[3] is evidence of Panic! monitoring this Wikipedia site, keeping constant track of what's going on in the 'Talk' section. This supports the above claim.

First point for taking out References #3 to #6 and the content they relate to; may I point out to the crowd the website [4] and its discussion of www.urbanadventure.org (Panic! [5] being the owner/author/web master) not getting its facts right in its writings of the Twin Cities. This can in turn relate to the ill-informed and biased references to pretty much all the content of www.urbanadventure.org and of its non-relevance to anything substantial e.g. what is referred to in this Wikipedia article.

Also here [6] is a thread which you started, that if you read it through has pertinent bits on lacking the original complaint you made of Copyright breaches to your site e.g. 'kowalski's intelligent posts, as well as what 'andrea' and 'undercity' wrote. Here is more evidence of the illegitimacy of Panic!'s writings (on www.urbanadventure.org) and its non-NPOV.

And here[7] for details of Panic!'s o/s trip and explanation of the non-Australian IP addresses stated above.

Anyone want to suggest further about putting some of the above info into the 'Controversy' section just to show the poeple out there that there are people who are writing things without the whole truth? I think its a good idea to enforce and build upon the NPOV thing that's going on for Wikipedia to keep doing what it does in the most democratic way possible.

In summary I propose removing the related comments to References 3, 4, 5 and 6 using the above reasoning, on top of the Il Draino page scans being taken out of context (the CC take most social things lightly as far as I know!) and that these are a tiny proportion of are approx. 80 issues of Il Draino published, totalling around 200 pages of content. Ta muchly! Dmnscar 13:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Whether "Panic" (whoever he is) actually went by the name "Jonathan Littell" I don't know, because he isn't me. I can, however, tell you who Jonathan Littell is -- he's a lot more than a "New York based science fiction author." Look at his wikipedia article, and if you still believe that he and this guy Panic are one and the same, do a google image search and you'll find pictures of Jonathan Littell. Hint: he's the prize winner with the prominent nose. (if Panic had said he was really Virginia Woolf, would you have believed that too?).

And just because someone is paying attention to this page does not mean he is me. Again, do an IP check. Here, I'll help you out: use DNS Tools. As for "details of Panic's trip," it says he starts in "late May." This is still February.

Thanks -- hibou 10:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Slanderous, unsubstantiated and irrelevant material removed. Raresaturn 01:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

All Gunny's (Hibou) reference links are dead.Raresaturn 09:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The links work perfectly fine. Though that has nothing to do with me, I am not Gunny. -- hibou 09:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

No they don't, they redirect to http://www.urbanexploration.org/urevl/help.htm which is a blank page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Raresaturn (talk • contribs) 09:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

When I click on this reference I get a page that begins with "Some things the Cave Clan didn't want you to know." If it doesn't work for you, try emptying your cache and reloading the page. -- hibou 10:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

How do you explain the redirection? You must be seeing a cached version. Raresaturn 10:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought so too so I cleared my cache and tried again (before recommending the same method to you). But I still get the correct page, so that's not it. Maybe try again from another (distant) computer, perhaps the site owner has blocked Cave Clan's server/ip or something. Otherwise I don't have any advice for you, I still see the correct page when I click. -- hibou 10:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Another confirmation. I too am unable to view the contents of those links. I get diverted to the /urevl/help.htm page. It appears to be blank. Clearing caches is of no benefit. 220.239.109.173 13:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I may have figured out the problem you're having. When I click on the link, it redirects me to here. Maybe your browser is configured to refuse the redirect or something? I'm not sure but perhaps this is why it works for me but not for you. -- hibou 14:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

What is the point of having refernece links that only some people can access? Can Hibou explain his argument for keeping these links? Raresaturn 22:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

links don't work for me either, and i don't even really know what cave clan is. what the point of bogus links? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.139.67.179 (talk) 20:53, March 3, 2007

Working on getting together a bunch of (either official or reputable) online references to replace the biased waffle from urbanadventure dot org . I'll put these up once the page is unprotected. Here's the first few: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/streetstories/stories/2004/1193089.htm http://www.abc.net.au/rn/history/streets/stories/s922468.htm http://www.infiltration.org/history-timeline.html http://www.gettingit.com/article/272 http://www.interworldradio.net/audio/audio_programme_details.asp?id=1095 http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-10-16.cfm more to come Raresaturn 11:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/1822604.stm

Hello virtual Wikipedia sysops/admins (there's been a few of you coming here now, waving your mighty hand in stopping us have a complete NPOV inserted...), if you haven't figured out by now that the current state of this page is under the misguided control of said hibou (aka all those other names i mentioned above) then this page's accurate description of the Cave Clan is still false and cannot be changed to remove the flimsy 'evidence' that supports a biased and derogatory view of the Cave Clan.

A brief history of who we are dealing with:hibou (Panic!, Gunny etc.) has a long history with the Cave Clan (CC), dating back to the early 1990's. He was not liked by most of the CC when he started then and to today, and thus not many people wanted to explore with him. Since then he has tried a lot of things to paint the CC in a bad way taking out his revenge in any way he can think of. He even took a member to court for something i am unclear about (I think it was to do with stalking) but this was thrown out of court within 5 minutes as being without substantive evidence... and so we come to today and here, where he is doing what he loves, taking out revenge on the CC.

Can i ask if any of you have actually read the content we are disputing??? Do you think in all reasoning that a group would be homophobic, racist etc. and even if they did would they want it up here? And really, using the crap references hibou has (that link to his own website!), is this really rock-solid evidence supporting said claims? I've never done any law study/degree but even i can see this to be not supporting nasty claims as it does here. Does this not put into disrepute the validity of Wikipedia overall i.e. having a correct NPOV description of the many items you have in the system?

Finally... every time it is set to protected this page is being saved as the wrong version with this biased content still included i.e. with References 3 --> 6 still there. Stating what i said earlier: I propose removing the related comments to References 3, 4, 5 and 6. If this is done (and constant monitoring of the site to check references are rock-solid) then there will be no further 'editing war' going on.

So please, stop this protection of this page, the current state of it is painting a damaging incorrect description of the CC. Read the non - urbanexploration.org links for yourself that are peppered here and on the actual Wiki-CC site, and notice there is no talk of the CC being any of the negative claims hibou keeps inserting in here e.g. Homophobia, Racism, Graffiti endorsement, KKK references... basically all the trashy kindergarten stuff. Thank you Dmnscar 01:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current efforts to reach concensus

I was not going to wade into this but DMNscar's misinformation and outright defamation has forced me to.

Dmnscar read this:

http://www.urbanadventure.org/main/stuff/ildraino/caveclan.htm

I quote:

"Some of the comments posted online about this page point out that the Cave Clan is no longer anti-gay. Dougo has now made the following statements advising that he and the Cave Clan are no longer anti-gay.

Dougo has stated:

"The whole "running" thing was a joke. There have been gay people in the Cave Clan way before there was uer.ca. I openly joke with gay friends I have and they dish it out, however I also understand that we have matured a lot since the late 80s and early 90s.

I'm just trying to say that the 'homophobic' entry is out of date, taken out of context, and also takes humour amongst a small bunch of friends and associates and tries to make us look like a branch of the Nazi party. "

Now clearly the Cave Clan is not the Nazi party, nor is Doug ever expressed any support for the Nazi party that I am aware of. His idea of a joke however would probably not be considered a joke by most normal people. Most people would probably consider it for what it was, harassment and vilification. It was not among a small group of friends, as it was published in a magazine that was distributed among both Cave Clan members and members of the general public who was interested the Cave Clan. The readership has been described as being over 100 people.

Dougo does appear to have changed his behavior though. He has at least made several statements that he is no longer anti-gay. Everybody has the capacity for change, and Doug appears to have changed in respect to his actions towards gay people. It would be appropriate though if the Cave Clan made a public statement to that effect."

So how about we agree that whiole in the past the Cave Clan was anti-gay that today they appear to have changed their stance?

And you should note that your post is again an example of the harrasment that the Cave Clan have been undertaking against me. You've never met me, yet you seem to have lots to say about me. How much of it is just propogands Big lie style? Most of it.

Panic! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.102.45.64 (talk) 06:55, March 5, 2007

The Cave Clan was never anti-gay, and to say it was (or is) is blatant lie. You're speaking as if it was some sort of policy or something. Maybe some members told gay jokes at some stage, does that make the entire Cave Clan 'anti gay'? To say it does is just muck-raking. Raresaturn 10:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

panic! reveals himself at last. coincidence? you be the judge —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.206.205.125 (talk) 04:17, March 6, 2007

Indeed Panic and Hibou are never in the same room together! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Raresaturn (talk • contribs) 04:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Yeah whatever Raresaturn, or (Using DMNScar's logic) should I say Michael James Douglas aka Doug, dougo Dogo, DMNScar. I am not Hibou, and he's not me.

Look, are we going to be constructive or what? Okay, you have a point about the who Cave Clan not being ant-gay. Perhaps we should modify that to being "Elements of the Cave Clan" or "Members of the Il Draino editing team" or perhaps just "Michael Douglas." It should not be ignored, as certinly there was much anti-gay text published in Il Draino and certinly one member was asked to leave for being gay, even though he wasn't. I also recived lots of homophobic harrasment from Michael James Douglas even though I'm not gay.

I very much doubt that, who are you refering to? And how can he be asked to leave 'because he's gay' if he's not even gay? Is it possible he was asked to leave for other reasons? Raresaturn 10:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we can discuss some of the other points of contension? Certinly I agree that tarring the whole Cave Clan with the same brush is not fair so perhaps some terminology to refer to only parts of the cave clan should be used?

Panic!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.102.45.64 (talk) 06:50, March 6, 2007

Indeed, Panic and I have never before been in the same room, because we have never met! I have never even been to Australia. And if I'm here less, it's because I'm getting tired of this squabbling. I've also got things like a real life and work to take care of :) -- hibou 09:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, it seems after due time that the user Raresaturn has shown himself to join the elusive list of Panic!'s alter ego's i.e. internet people he has invented, all of them being himself in real life. This can be garnered from the postings made here and their similarity to the grammar, timing etc. even if they seem going against the posting of his other alter-ego's~but in the end to come to some flimsy conclusion.

I've edited the page to remove all www.urbanexploration.org links and their respective content, and to keep it NPOV. There are now no dodgy references to www.urbanexploration.org and the complete description belies the true reflection of Cave Clan as a current entity and status (see www.caveclan.org for complete information)

Cave Clan would also like to know from Wikipedia admins what endorsement / enforcement can be had from their nominated representatives, as having biased content here is not in the best interests of what we truly represent. Please advise further (can email info@caveclan.org for more info)

Thanks for your time, bedtime! Dmnscar 14:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm beginning to suspect that according to Dmnscar that every single user on Wikipedia who is not him must be me. I won't bother refuting his incorrect claims as anyone who can view the IPs involved can clearly see that I am not the other people he claims I am. His claims that we use similar grammar and have similar timings is silly. Wow, he uses English, capitals at the start of sentances and full stops so he MUST be me. I must be Dmnscar. Oh, and I added this right after him so there's more proof!

Look Dmnscar and other cave clan menbers we were invited to discuss and agree upon things here. So let's do that hey? I have a point of view and biases. You have a point of view and biases. So let's discuss things here and see what we can agree upon. How about an open minded discussion where we come to the table prepared to consider opinions and compramise?

When it comes down to it, if we do not discuss this rationally I will just apply for an account, reinstate my refrences and in time this page will become locked yet again. I expect you don't want to see that. As I have already mentioned above I am willing to compramise, I'm open to ideas. But I am not willing to just have you remove things you do not agree with just because that is not what you would like presented here. The truth is that some elements of the cave clan conducted sustained harrasment campaigns against people, and that some elements of the cave clan were anti-gay, did advocate (and still do advocate) graffiti and were involved in vandalism. Certinly not all parts of the cave clan, so I agree the article should state that. This is proven by a credible source, which is the copies of the Il'Draino magazine.

Logically some of you may disagree with it. So present your arguments and use CREDIBLE sources. Not "I heard ....." or "everyone in the cave clan hates...." Because those statements could be made by anyone and are not provable or credible. If you want to prove the cave clan is not anti-gay then by all means prove it by refrencing a statement on yoru web site like Urban Explorer suggested. I note that Doug doues not have a gay friendly icon when using UER. Nor for that matter do some other cave clan members.

If you disacree with what I have to say, by all means get out there and make it a reality. If you want to prove the cave clan are not anti-gay hold a gay freindly meet or whatever. If you want to prove that the cave clan don't support graffiti then publish a rule on your web site advocating that. Or (and yeah I think this is kind of lame), hold a clean up graffiti day at drains and publish the pictures.

Oh, and just to make it clear, I never said the cave clan are associated with the KKK. I clearly stated that they are not, and that they have put up "f$#k the KKK" stickers. I agree that the cave clan are not racist, and have stated that.

With regard to the representatives and cave clan endorsement, take a look at the Microsoft and McDonalds entries in Wikipedia. Note the criticism sections. If those organisations vetted their entries there would not be truthful entries. Now I've used CREDIBLE evidence to support my arguments and points. I would expect you to use them too. Also, note that the article is about the cave clan and not me, so there's no point in posting stuff about me here.

Finally Dmnscar I note on page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dmnscar that on the 14th of Feburary you got a final warning about blanking of web pages. You will note that I have not raised that to the Moderators here despite the fact that you have again blanked sections of the article, but if you continue to blank sections I will. Though I think in the best interests of a fair article it would be better that you stay.

We should use this page to discuss in a level headed, non accusing manner.

Panic!!

LOL this 'warning' is by Hibou whose Neutrality in this issue is seriously questionable. Also administrators please note Panic's threat to deliberately get this article locked down. Raresaturn 11:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to step in here.

I've been an active member of the Cave Clan for about 5 years now and just read over what Panic/Hibou want included in the article. It has me completely stunned that someone could consider this an accurate portrayal of the Cave Clan. It isn't. There's is no need to start making public statements about how the clan is now gay friendly. Sexuality / gender assignment status is completely irrelevant to membership in the Clan. In my time, the only people who have been asked to leave are those who are intollerant of existing members. Panic appears to me to have a vindictive obsession with portraying the Cave Clan in a bad light. He has on his website a very small number of bad jokes that were made at some point ~in the last 21 years~. This is completely misleading wikipedia's readers. I got into a punch up in school once (14 years ago), that doesn't mean I have a dangerous history of violence that needs to go on public record. If Panic insists on including his information in this article, I think we can reach a comprimise. It should also be noted that those parts of the article are written by someone who has a long history of hostility towards the Cave Clan. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence to back that up.

Justin. 220.239.109.173 09:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a quickie... found out that Raresaturn is a unique user, sorry for the misinformation. Thanks to him also for emailing me with that clarification :)

And with replying to above recent comment avec Panic!... apologies but i'm only here for a short while, will come back to it soon.

Thanks Justin for making an edit here while i'm editing too - didn't realise!. Cheers big ears :) Dmnscar 09:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Raresaturn. You have mistaken my comment about this web site getting locked. What I mean was, if we do not reach agreement, the inevitable result of people blanking my valid links will see the web site locked. Now if nobody blanks anything the web site will not get locked. So it is clearly in the best interests of all if we reach a concensus. It was not a threat and it was just silly to suggest it was. The admins are not children after all.

I've offered to talk rationally about this so lets talk.

Justin, you make some valid points. By all means if sexual orientation has no relevance to clan membership then by all means state that in the article. Make refrences to that point.

I also agree that isolated incidents should not form a basis for judging someone or a group. But we're not talking isolated incidents here are we? We're talking sustained action taken over a number of years.

And hey, look if you have a problem with me posting so called isolated incidents from the small section of Il Draino pictures I obtained from the Pandora archive, by all means you guys have access to the entire il Draino archive. Find some images that highlight good things the clan did. I know there was an article there about the time some of you guys saved some animals from a drain at Latrobe Uni.

While I disagree with you, does not mean I am even vaugly interested in any of this revenge you talk about. I just have experienced a different side of the cave clan than many people and I feel I have a right to tell people about it. If you would prefer I didn't lets talk about it. I figure an apology and an agreement that neigher of us ever discuss each other again privately or on the internet could resolve this. I make no posts about you and refuse to talk about you if asked, you do the same. No more of these "I've never met panic but...." bullcrap that I see on your forum either.

There you go, a peace proposal.

Panic!!

Criticism sections are criticism sections, you need not agree or disagree with them; they're merely criticisms that're brought up in relation to an organisation or group. As a long time wikipedian, I suggest members of Cave Clan look no deeper into such a thing, it happens to all group pages. I'm sure they're not using it as a means of personal attack, if they are it'll be removed. If there's validity, it'll stay. The problem arises with working out what 'validates' the arguments put forwards, what evidences are required? Given the nature of this group, and given the size as a reasonably small organisation, it would most likely be fiercely defended; but I must state clearly, neutrality is the key. Don't burn down the barn just because there's a snake in a stall. 211.30.75.123 09:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

On further reading of the controversy section; where there is nothing controversial listed, even in prior editions, I wish to also clearly state that that section is implicitly POV written. Having read the talk page and looking back on it, there's a LOT of material that should be listed in there. Again, it's something the GROUP in question shouldn't take personally and delete hap hazardly. Perhaps the group could nominate a few wiki-knowledgable writers to deal with this? 211.30.75.123 10:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

in relation to the NPOV/criticism issue, i can't feasibly see why the intergrity of wikipedia or the accurate depiction of the Cave Clan should be held to ransom by the views of ONE individual (Panic!) with an obviously long history of animosity towards this group. 144.138.170.95 11:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. By all means, include information critical of the Clan if it's important. There are plenty of reasons to be critical of the Clan. But someone with the known animosity of Panic! shouldn't be re-writing the article and putting a bad taint on almost every paragraph. Just out of interest, this: http://www.caveclan.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10019/clanwiki.txt is the text that was put together by the Cave Clan that originally appeared in the article. Looking at it now I can see there is plenty that could be changed. I'll take it back to the Cave Clan and suggest that the original article has a going-over. I think it would then be a good idea to get an ~unbiased~ Wikipedian to look over it and suggest changes.

Justin 220.239.109.173 14:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll happily give anything a read over. I tend to stumble around wiki (have done for the last five years) cleaning up messes and dropping my two cents about keeping stuff terwikiffic shape until I find something interesting to occupy my time. This has given me a fair bit of reading, so more won't hurt.

Whilst I understand there is some problem with an author here who has a gripe against Cave Clan, the fact of the matter is some of his points are supported by arguments. Whether these arguments hold water in a court is irrelivant, what matters is they're there. Just as the Freemasonry article has an encounter counter-CATEGORY of anti-masonic stuff, of which 99.999% of which is utter bullshit, it's still cited as they're held beliefs.

It could be argued they're invalid because they belief is held by one person vocalising at this point in time; however all he'd do is get a group of other people who can back up -their- view on things and astroturf, which is identical to what Cave Clan would do if anything is put to a consensus that his views be excluded, thus negating the entire purposes of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

As it's a small group and they appear to be very protective / hands on with their own wiki article, I'd personally recommend petitioning for assistance in one of the many portions of Wikipedia where there are bored wikipedians like myself who'd love to take on a pet project and completely wash your hands of the matter and let them deal with it, giving feedback and updates via the help page. I've seen this tactic used many times successfully. 211.30.75.123 03:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that my court case against Michael Douglas of the Cave Clan was not "thrown out of court" as stated above. The magistrate concluded that "it is obvious that you are facing harrasment, but it is not possible to determine who is causeing that harrasment." I would challenge Michael to state here that he never recived a letter from Telstra advising him to cease making nusience calls to me.

Look, just because you do not disagree with my opinion does not make it valid. I provided valid links to credible evidence to support my arguments. Extracts from a magazine that the cave clan themselves printed. Do they deny they printed that? Nobody here has provided valid links to prove me wrong.

I ask here, can the Cave Clan prove that elements of the Cave Clan in the past did not enguage in publishing derogatory comments about members and past members of the Cave Clan? Yes, I agree it was not fair of me to tar the whole cave clan with a single brush. So perhaps we should come up with an fair and honest way to describe what did happen? I have no problem saying that was in the past, and even providing relevant dates. But I will not just let people brush that under the carpet.

If you are going to argue that I have a gripe, then surely it is fair for me to say that some people in the cave clan have a gripe aganst me? And surely my feelings towards the cave clan are as a result of my treatment by the cave clan. For every argument there is a counter argument.

I'm off for the week but when I'm back I intend to repost the links to my material. I strongly suggest you forget the bickering, finger pointing and so on and just use this oppertunity to suggest some fair compramises. I'm a bit tired of making offers here and not seeing any worth while comments back.

Panic!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.102.45.64 (talk)

[edit] Points to open for discussion / compromise

I'm willing to agree that:

• The cave clan today is not the same as the cave clan in the past.
• The cave clan of today appears to have many people who either don't care about the life choices of members or are supportive of gay members.
• In the past, anti-gay comments were published in the Il'Draino magazine.
• The Il Draino magazine is no longer published, and possibly the views expressed in it were those of only a portion of the cave clan and may / may not be supperted by current members.
• In the past extensive campaigns of harrasment were made in Il Draino by cave clan members.
• To a large extent those campagns are virtually non existant today.

There we go, things to compramise on and discuss. If there's no reasonable comment I'm just going to re- add my refrences with cave clan written material from IlDraino and forget about compramise or discussion. If the cave clan choose to reverse or blank my additions I'll just re-add them as they are valid and credible refrences.

Panic!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.102.45.64 (talk)

I urge Panic and members of the Cave Clan to strongly consider WP:COI. Inviting outside editors to the page with WP:3O and WP:PR may be a good idea. Vassyana 07:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Are other (non cave-clan) people who are following this, begining to understand why Panic!, and his nome de plumes, may not be a rational or reliable person concerning his views of the cave clan? 144.138.170.74 12:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe his views to be founded on his personal experiences with the matter, as are the respondants. There is logic behind every action, or inaction.  :)

Also, Panic, I recommend you post the recommended material here in this discussion thread and I will wikify it and bring it up to standards so it's neutral as much as a controversial / criticism section can be before the application of the text, otherwise it'll just be nerfed under COI. I'm worried it'd be inflammatory based on the way people are reacting to your original posts, so perhaps allow me to be an intermediary? I've been editing on wiki for six years now and have resolved many issues such as this, hopefully I can be of assistance to both parties. <3 211.30.75.123 15:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You may wish to appeal to a broader community for input by asking at the Village pump, posting a Wikiquette alert, or filing a Request for Comment. --Ideogram 03:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I believe everyone arguing here takes a good look at the article, because truly, this argument is going nowhere. The idealism of NPOV is questionable from user to user. One might believe that is from all sides, others think it's biased, well, truly it cannot be defined biased unless maybe an Admin takes a look at it. These points of view from both sides here may be somewhat biased, even if the contributor is not trying to be. This is nothing to squabble over. Deletion Quality 23:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been too ill to edit this page any more and truth is I am just fed up and tired of this. If the Cave Clan don't speak ill of me here I'll not speak ill of them here. Fair deal?

Panic!!