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Talk:Chili con carne

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So what would vegetarian Chili be? (and should it be listed under the Chili 'with meat' article?)
~ender 2003-09-12 04:32:MST

I think that's just the conventional name. I added an intro which explicitly mentions meat substitutes. You can make any ground beef dish using a substitute, so I don't think that that fact is noteworthy enough to warrant its own article or a name change. -- AdamRaizen
I disagree with the assertion that chili is a 'ground beef dish' and the collateral assumption that vegetarian versions are 'a ground beef dish using a beef substitute'. (I'm a native of Texas if that means anything - which it shouldn't) I think Chili should be a hub article about chili in general, with links to Chili verde, Chili colorado (small c), Chili con carne, Chili dog, Cincinnati chili, Chili powder etc, Pedant 00:02, 2005 Feb 14 (UTC)
In my experience vegetarian chili is sometimes called "chili sans carni", chili without meat. I don't know how common this is though Daibhid C 20:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Saying "A packet or two of chili mix. NOT chili powder" is far from helpful. What herbs, spices, and seasonings are involved in "chili mix"? –Hajor 22:34, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)'


Real Texans would NEVER cook their chili with the beans in it. First, they would use dried pinto beans, soak them overnight in water, and then boil them (separately from the chili). Second, they would add the beans (without the bean juice) AFTER the chili is completely cooked. Otherwise, you have a homogeneous mess. You might as well mix a can of pinto beans and a can of Wolf Brand "Chili" (chili-flavored oatmeal). How long has it been since you had a bowl -- not long enough! H2O 04:44, 2 May 2004 (UTC)


Chili made with ghee? "Ghee?" No, folks -- not even butter goes in chili. And regarding the "Texas Chili" recipe: Where's the masa? Where's the chiles, for pete's sake? (That's where the name comes from, you know.) This article is going on my "major overhaul" list.
--- Michael K. Smith 19:27, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) [Native of San Antonio, lifelong resident of Austin and Dallas, now in retirement exile in Louisiana -- and collateral relative of H. Allen Smith, co-founder with Frank Tolbert of the Terlingua International Chili Cook-Off]

Hmmm.. The "simple chile con carne recipe" looks to me like a variation of "Chile Colorado" as one might find it in New Mexico and surrounding areas. While I haven't seen a recipe with ghee before (usually maize oil or olive oil), there are as many variations on chile as there are chile cooks (I have seen recipes calling for shortening - I'll stick with vegetable oil, thankyoverymuch). The "texas chile" recipe in the article *does* call for "masa harina", BTW
Logotu 22:20, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, you're quite right -- I was so blinded by the idea of butter in chili, I missed the masa reference. I'm presently in the middle of completely revising and greatly expanding this article (my patriotic duty...), to include origins, "canonical" Texas chili, New Mexico verde, Cincinnati-style, LBJ's Pedernales River Chili, the San Antonio "Chili Queens", the chili parlor culture, the several organizations devoted to competitive chili-cooking, and the Chili Prayer. And maybe some other stuff. It'll be a few days. And then you guys can all join in with corrections and additions. Chili deserves an expert Wikipedia entry. ---Michael K. Smith 17:40, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And regarding the "Texas Chili" recipe: Where's the masa? Where's the chiles, for pete's sake?

I'm afraid that I wrote up the Texas Chili recipe while in a state of shock over the notion of some godawful bean stew served over rice being labeled as chili. By "red pepper", I meant chilis -- myself, I grind smoked jalapenos I grow myself. I've got no time to help out much in the overhaul -- best of luck! Ben 04:22, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC) (Austin, Texas)


Okay -- I have finished and uploaded a completely overhauled version of this page. I've tried to keep the actual recipes to a minimum ("wikipedia is not a cookbook", I'm sure), concentrating on the "original" and on representatives of the various types. (I've cooked all of these many times, by the way.) I don't think the NPOV principle has been offended -- but with chili, there really is sometimes a "right" way and a "wrong" way.

I'm not sure of the etiquette in virtually replacing an entire page like this,... but, to be frank, there was relatively little I could justify keeping. I hope the previous contributors to this page will believe that I wasn't looking for toes to step on.

There also are a few formatting points I'm unsure about, having to do with source citations and footnotes vs. in-text notes. Because this page is now rather lengthy, I didn't want to push all citations to the very bottom. If that's the overriding Wiki preference, though, I'll change it (or one of you folks can, of course).

As I said earlier, I trust all of ya'll with chili experience will correct errors, elaborate where useful, and expand the thinner sections. (There are a few in-text comments noting what I think those are.) And I will shortly be adding new, and much shorter, pages on chili powder and maybe the two chili societies.

I gotta get back to Austin and make a pilgrimage down to 6th Street!
---Michael K. Smith 20:04, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

'SOK. Wikipedia engourages you to be bold in editing, anyway. I'll have a look at it when I get the chance. -- Logotu 14:53, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
You have inspired me to continue a project I started a while ago and never really did anything with. Back when Hajor asked (above) what the difference was between chili powder and chili mix, I decided that it was needed info, but neither probably deserved a whole article. I started searching the web and compared with my own experience to make an article about blended spices. I went ahead and posted a new spice mix article today, and redirected chili powder to it. Feel free to edit & add to it. -- Logotu 19:27, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Why not move the recipes to Wikibooks? WhisperToMe 20:21, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well, if you mean to copy them to the cookbook which I believe is being compiled over there, please do (I don't hang out there and don't know the ropes). But if you mean we should excise the recipes from this article and have them appear only there, I would protest strongly. You can't define chili or describe the history of its development and expansion into previously chili-less areas of the country without those few representative recipes. --Michael K. Smith 20:54, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've been fiddling with this article, after having some chili - bought in Tesco, decanted from a can, served with pilau rice as God intended chili to be served. With regards the recipes, the article needs to show why they are significant. A sentence stating why Lyndon Johnson had a preferred recipe might belong as a footnote on Lyndon Johnson's page, but the inclusion of the entire recipe lends Johnson a global significance he does not warrant; 'Jailhouse chili' needs a source which proves that this is a formal standard throughout the Texan penal system, otherwise it's nothing. The recipes need to be rewritten as information rather than instruction (i.e. 'At this point the mixture should be tasted' rather than 'Do a lot of tasting during this time'). All of the recipes need sources, although I understand this might be hard for something which is akin to oral tradition / folk art. In general, the article needs to be less enthusiastic, more objective, less 'fan'-ish and with fewer brackets, and a picture of a Chili queen would be excellent - were they men dressed in drag? -Ashley Pomeroy 22:32, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article has been sliced and diced by a Brit who eats store-bought chili over rice and who can't understand the historical context of regional cuisine in Texas -- which I thought I had made pretty clear, having spent some considerable time on making the rewrite of this article as objective as possible. Who thinks LBJ doesn't have "global significance" and who seems not to understand the distinction (also pretty clear, I thought) between culinary traditions and legislated requirements in Texas peniteniaries. Who capitalizes "chili queen" as if it were a corporate job title and thinks enthusiasm is incompatible with expertise. Who has never heard of the Chili Prayer and therefore assumes it has no part in Southwestern social history (the Southwestern U.S., that is -- not Cornwall.)

And then someone else strips out the handful of near-generic recipes -- which is like discussing geography without maps or art without pictures. I don't have time to repair this carnage right now, and I wonder if I should bother. --Michael K. Smith 19:05, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


What do you folks think of making the Cincinnati-style chili section into its own article, naturally with a mention and wiki link in the Chili con carne article? It seems like the style (served as a sauce over spaghetti and on hot dogs) and origins (from Macedonian and Greek immigrants in a midwestern city) are distinct enough from the Tex-Mex style that is primarily represented in this article for a separate article to be justified. I say this, having in my ignorance already started a separate article called Cincinnati chili, and then stumbling across the section in the Chili con carne article.

If consensus is that the Cincinnati chili should remain within the larger chili article, I will add what little original information is in my newly written article to the already existing section, and then write a redirect to Chile con carne from Cincinnati chili. If, however, consensus agrees with my own opinion, or if days pass without comment, I will go ahead and split Cincinnati-style chili off into its own article, leaving a brief descpription and a wiki link to where readers can find the more exhaustive relocated material. Rohirok 01:16, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd say go ahead and break Cincinatti chili out to its own article. Real chili is not a sauce or topping, in my opinion. As for LBJ and his significance to chili, I think that there might profitably be a section entitled Presidential chili or the like, as there are quite a few chili tidbits related to US presidents. Pedant 23:50, 2005 Feb 13 (UTC)
I split the Cincinnati chili info into its own article, merging all of the unique information from its section in chili con carne into what had already been written in Cincinnati chili. On a totally irrelevant note, I take issue with the implication that Cincinnati chili is not "real" chili. I also find it peculiar that so many people have strong feelings against beans in chili. Chili without bean strikes me as something that would be too heavy, and too hard on the digestive system. Rohirok 01:56, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Uh yeah cause beans are sooo easy on the digestive tract! The things in Chili that cause problems on the digestive tract are things that ferment such as: Onions, garlic, and well BEANS!!! That is why excellent Texas chili (which is the only thing that should ever be called chili by name)is very simple and does not have a bunch a superfluous sh.... uh stuff in it! Contrary to popular belief, Chili should not be instantly hot at the 1st bite either. This is a myth and if it does, your just trying to show your Yankee buddies how tuff you are! Your forehead should start sweating after you get into it a little and keep building(slow burn). However, your stomach should thank you for eating good Texas chili. Your rectum on the other hand......well that is a different story.

B. Roth Austin, Tx Sept. 2 2006

Contents

[hide]

[edit] Chili Types?

Michael:

I notice that the article doesn't mention the types of chili peppers used for the various chiles, while some considerable attention is paid to meats. Could you add some info commenting on what chiles were typically used? For example, I'm curious, did the chile queens of Old San Antonio use chipotles, arbols, poblanos, anchos, or what?

BTW, I vote in favor of having an example recipe of each type of chili. It seems very odd to have a recipe for vegetarian chili and not for the other, more traditional types.

--Josh Berkus, once of San Antonio, now of California and a vegetarian.

I agree. Why should there only be one single recipe for "vegitarian" chili, and no others. If no one adds any other recipes, I will remove the recipe three days from now. Rsm99833

Per previous notification I am removing the vegitarian recipe. Rsm99833

[edit] I changed the picture

I changed the picture to the one used for the chili template since you can see the ingredients - meat, beans - better and I thought it looked better than the one with the pot. If you want to change it back, go ahead. --Blue387 07:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Weather.

Texicans never say "northern". A cold front moving into Texas is always referred to by Texans as "norther" without an "n" on the end. The quote of Ladybird Johnson is obviosly in error.

67.128.188.29Don Granberry.

[edit] More on worldwide variations?

I've always had chili con carne with red kidney beans and rice in the UK. Never thought of it as a stew-like dish, but more as a Mexican dish. Well, well, you live and learn! But it would be nice to have some of the regional variations in the article. Carcharoth 07:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard of Chilli ala UK. Can anyone else confirm this? Rsm99833 14:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been doing a look-around, and frankly I can't find any sources that would justify keeping U.K. chilli in as a catagory. If no real objections are raised by Friday, I'm removing it. Rsm99833 04:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind terribly if I put it back? The variant, as it was described in the article, is a pretty authentic artifact in British pubs, student unions, and the like. See here, for instance, or a comparison of various ready-meal chilli-con-carnes here (loads of kidney beans, and invariably served on a bed of white rice). Bolivian Unicyclist 16:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which drinks go best with Chili con carne?

Any ideas and suggestions? Bernburgerin 10:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Cerveza (Beer), Rojo Grande (Big Red), Water,

10:22 B. Roth Austin, Tx Sept. 2 2006

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus for move. Joelito (talk) 17:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

chili con carne to chili. Then move the current chili to chili (disambiguation). By far the most common term for this. Also, there are plenty of types of chili that don't contain meat. Voortle 12:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong oppose the dismbiguation page should stay. I believe the most common use is the actual pepper, anyway. -- Beardo 15:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Chili by itself most commonly refers to chili con carne. Voortle 15:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. It might be most common in the US but not in Australia, for example - 'chilli' refers to the chilli pepper there. Remember that wikipedia represents (or is supposed to aim for) a world view. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 18:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support definitely the most common term. Recury 16:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose No reason to move it. Rsm99833 19:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Dab page good; land grab bad. If the potential meatlessness is an issue, look for alternatives like chili (dish). Bolivian Unicyclist 23:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
oh, and just FYI, Chili without meat is known as Vegtable soup. Rsm99833 23:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per nomination and WP:UE - AjaxSmack 18:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose The existing article is excellent -Ben 21:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support As per my reasons above. Also, all most chili cans and restaurant menus say simply "chili" . Voortle 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. As I mentioned before, chili refers to the dish mainly in the United States. It means different things in different locations and keeping it as-is allows everyone to get to the article that they'd expecting with the least fuss. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, here's some Google results:

"Chili" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22chili%22&btnG=Search 88,700,000 results

"Chili con carne" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22chili+con+carne%22&btnG=Search 1,120,000 results

"Can of chili" 23,700 results

"Can of chili con carne" 1,970 results

"Bowl of chili" 113,000 results

"Bowl of chili con carne" 5,160 results

"Chili can" 27,100 results

"Chili con carne can" 23 results

"Wendy's chili" 2,000 results

"Wendy's chili con carne" 0 results

It seems clear by these results that "chili" is the right term for this article. "chili con carne" is quite rare. This article should no more be at chili con carne, than piano should be at pianoforte, cello should be at violoncello and bus should be at omnibus. Voortle 21:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

All cans? All menus? Bolivian Unicyclist 15:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
"Chili pepper", on the other hand, gets 8,550,000. Nobody's disputing that "chili" is the most common name for this dish -- just that "chili" most commonly refers to the dish rather than something else. -Ben 22:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Weasel Words

Many sections of this article are swarming with Weasel Words. I plan to help fix this problem in the near future, anybody who would like to help me is more than welcome. Dunne409 19:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only in U.S.?

I think this misses the point that variations of chili exist in Middle and South America (e.g. pozole and locro - links needed). There should also be a link to burgoo.

[edit] RIIIIICE???!!!!

In Southeast Texas people eat chili over white rice, much like one would eat gumbo, this is due to the proximity to Louisiana. This is also common in the United Kingdom.

I am from the very heart of Southeast Texas, and I am a Cajun. However, I'm also a Texan, and I therefore know that it is actually illegal to eat chili and rice together. I've lived here all my life, and I've never seen anyone do this. Ever. Blech. --Jfulbright 14:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

How else does one eat it ? -- Beardo 02:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] official dish ?

"Chili con carne is the official dish of the Mexican Culture"... How is that?? Who make it the Official dish of the entiiiireee mexican culture??? :S

Residual vandalism. Reverted. Bolivian Unicyclist 13:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Mushrooms?

"If you substitute chunks of fresh mushrooms for the beans, you will cut the calorie content of your favorite chili recipe by at least a third, without sacrificing taste"

I can't be the only person to take issue with this appearing more than once. I wouldn't mind if it were just saying that mushroom can be a substitute for beans (though I wouldn't eat it) but saying that the calorific content will be decreased without mentioning the drawbacks of removing beans (I'm no nutritionist but I'm lead to believe that nearly all types of beans are considered miracle foods of sorts in their general goodforyouness) as well as suggesting that taste and texture wouldn't change. I'll put too many mushrooms in next time I make some, just to make sure--Shadebug 22:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Nonsense? Vandalism?

Greetings--

I'm the one who added the information to chili con carne regarding its similarity to serbian bean soup. I would very much like to know how you came to the conclusion that this represents vandalism or nonesense. I'm a reputable user, thank you, and I resent this implication. May I suggest you look at this rather typical recipe:

http://www.techsoup.org/community/souprecipe_detail.cfm?souprecipeid=103

and consider whether it is not considerably more like what is generally referred to as "chili con carne" than he Hungarian gulasch which you judged to be entirely acceptable? Yes, I think the reversion should be reverted, though I do not wish to enter an edit-war.

The reversion also restored the redundancy of mushroom-based chili, which I don't think is much of an improvement. Rather than get into flaming, I'll leave it to somone else to revert the reversion. DavidOaks 17:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

What you added was, at best, a POV/commentary.Rsm99833 18:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, no -- or at least not more so than the references to gulasch, etc. I take it you wish those removed as well? DavidOaks 19:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's what you wrote: "Though not secret, by any means, if you substitute chunks of fresh mushrooms for the beans, you will cut the calorie content of your favorite chili recipe by at least a third, without sacrificing taste. The blandness of the white button mushroom soak up the flavors of the chiles, tomatoes, chili powder, etc. while helping the chili retain its consistency."

That's POV/Commentary.

If you want to take out the Goulash or re-write both, go for it.Rsm99833 19:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


No, I did not write any such thing. In fact, I deleted the repetition of that. Please pay attention. I affirm that Serbian bean soup is held (in Austria) to be something like chili. At least as much like chili as goulasch is. Geez-looo-eeze, is this such a big hairy deal? DavidOaks 05:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
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aa - ab - af - ak - als - am - an - ang - ar - arc - as - ast - av - ay - az - ba - bar - bat_smg - bcl - be - be_x_old - bg - bh - bi - bm - bn - bo - bpy - br - bs - bug - bxr - ca - cbk_zam - cdo - ce - ceb - ch - cho - chr - chy - co - cr - crh - cs - csb - cu - cv - cy - da - de - diq - dsb - dv - dz - ee - el - eml - en - eo - es - et - eu - ext - fa - ff - fi - fiu_vro - fj - fo - fr - frp - fur - fy - ga - gan - gd - gl - glk - gn - got - gu - gv - ha - hak - haw - he - hi - hif - ho - hr - hsb - ht - hu - hy - hz - ia - id - ie - ig - ii - ik - ilo - io - is - it - iu - ja - jbo - jv - ka - kaa - kab - kg - ki - kj - kk - kl - km - kn - ko - kr - ks - ksh - ku - kv - kw - ky - la - lad - lb - lbe - lg - li - lij - lmo - ln - lo - lt - lv - map_bms - mdf - mg - mh - mi - mk - ml - mn - mo - mr - mt - mus - my - myv - mzn - na - nah - nap - nds - nds_nl - ne - new - ng - nl - nn - no - nov - nrm - nv - ny - oc - om - or - os - pa - pag - pam - pap - pdc - pi - pih - pl - pms - ps - pt - qu - quality - rm - rmy - rn - ro - roa_rup - roa_tara - ru - rw - sa - sah - sc - scn - sco - sd - se - sg - sh - si - simple - sk - sl - sm - sn - so - sr - srn - ss - st - stq - su - sv - sw - szl - ta - te - tet - tg - th - ti - tk - tl - tlh - tn - to - tpi - tr - ts - tt - tum - tw - ty - udm - ug - uk - ur - uz - ve - vec - vi - vls - vo - wa - war - wo - wuu - xal - xh - yi - yo - za - zea - zh - zh_classical - zh_min_nan - zh_yue - zu -

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aa - ab - af - ak - als - am - an - ang - ar - arc - as - ast - av - ay - az - ba - bar - bat_smg - bcl - be - be_x_old - bg - bh - bi - bm - bn - bo - bpy - br - bs - bug - bxr - ca - cbk_zam - cdo - ce - ceb - ch - cho - chr - chy - co - cr - crh - cs - csb - cu - cv - cy - da - de - diq - dsb - dv - dz - ee - el - eml - eo - es - et - eu - ext - fa - ff - fi - fiu_vro - fj - fo - fr - frp - fur - fy - ga - gan - gd - gl - glk - gn - got - gu - gv - ha - hak - haw - he - hi - hif - ho - hr - hsb - ht - hu - hy - hz - ia - id - ie - ig - ii - ik - ilo - io - is - it - iu - ja - jbo - jv - ka - kaa - kab - kg - ki - kj - kk - kl - km - kn - ko - kr - ks - ksh - ku - kv - kw - ky - la - lad - lb - lbe - lg - li - lij - lmo - ln - lo - lt - lv - map_bms - mdf - mg - mh - mi - mk - ml - mn - mo - mr - mt - mus - my - myv - mzn - na - nah - nap - nds - nds_nl - ne - new - ng - nl - nn - no - nov - nrm - nv - ny - oc - om - or - os - pa - pag - pam - pap - pdc - pi - pih - pl - pms - ps - pt - qu - quality - rm - rmy - rn - ro - roa_rup - roa_tara - ru - rw - sa - sah - sc - scn - sco - sd - se - sg - sh - si - simple - sk - sl - sm - sn - so - sr - srn - ss - st - stq - su - sv - sw - szl - ta - te - tet - tg - th - ti - tk - tl - tlh - tn - to - tpi - tr - ts - tt - tum - tw - ty - udm - ug - uk - ur - uz - ve - vec - vi - vls - vo - wa - war - wo - wuu - xal - xh - yi - yo - za - zea - zh - zh_classical - zh_min_nan - zh_yue - zu