Talk:Clube de Regatas do Flamengo

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Hi. Well, this had been done once, I undid it and no one complained at the time. Now, a few months pasted, it was re-done again. So, to avoid this back and forth every now and then, I feel we should get consensus for this: it's about the positioning of the infobox. I understand that, for most football clubs' articles, the box is placed at the top of the article. That's not bad per se, and I don't know the specifics of every article. However, for this article, I maintain that the best place for it would be the "Trivia" section. A couple of reasons: 1)Layout: the inforbox is a perfect fit in the Trivia section, being completely contained there. I believe that this gives the article a better appearance; 2)Pertinency: the data contained in the box is completely pertinent to the Trivia section (although some would also be pertinent to the newly created performance timeline for the National Championship section), so it seems (to me) fitting that the box would be placed there. It is not necessarily the best choice to do something in an article simply because it was done that way in other similar articles. They aren't identical, the developing of the theme may vary, the general layout or even the sheer amount of information may be different. Sometimes, adaptation is required for a better presentation. Opinions? Regards, Redux 19:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

As one more time the infobox was moved to the top, I counted how many times this happened, and the result is that it occurred at least 4 times, by 4 different people: Ed gs2 (see [1] on 14:00, June 6, 2005), Dr31 (see [2] on 12:57, July 20, 2005), an IP user (see [3] on 09:26, August 17, 2005) and Abu Badali (see [4] on 15:31, August 22, 2005).

I also support moving it to the top, so, it seems that there are 5 people supporting moving the infobox to the top (me, Ed gs2, Dr31, 200.201.187.237, and Abu Badali) and one people are against (Redux).

So, I think that we should keep the infobox on the top, as this will prevent reverts ad aeternum.

Carioca 21:03, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

All the moves were carried out for no reason other than that similar infoboxes were at the top on articles on other Brazilian football clubs. See my comment above for reasons why that doesn't seem to be sufficient reason for keeping it that way. I also find it remarkable that I started a discussion to get consensus on the topic and waited almost a month for a reply that never came — during which time the infobox remained at the top, btw. Given the complete lack of interest from, really, anyone, I moved the infobox back to its previous location. Of the four moves you counted, two were made to revert this last repositioning of mine, without a word either here or in the edit summary (considering that "moving the infobox up" really says nothing, except to state the obvious). That's not how things are supposed to work on the encyclopedia people. Quite sincerally, I waited more than it would be reasonable for any argumentation in opposition of my reasoning, but no one seemed to care until I went ahead and repositioned the box again. Perhaps I should also call attention to WP:NOT, especifically the part Wikipedia is not a democracy... it works by consensus. I was the only one who made any effort to achieve that; other than that, you have two people who moved the box in order to make it look like Fluminense, Botafogo and others, and two other people who simply reverted my edit after the month-long period with no valid reasoning, which would be required since I had started a discussion on the topic that went completely ignored. Sorry, but it would seem that policy is with me on this one. Regards, Redux 04:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I'm sorry for moving the Infobox without consulting the Talk Page. Mea Culpa. As you said, I just wanted the article to be similar to that of others Futeball Clubs.

But, since (now I know that) we're having a disscussion here, I will state my opinion: Even after reading you arguments, I still believe that Infoboxes belong to the top of the articles. Argument n. 1 (The Perfect Fit argument) is to much of personal taste. And, even if I agreed with your taste, we have to consider that it's weak in the sence that as the article grows, and changes, this perfect fit thing may cease. And if we are to agree with Argument n. 2 (The pertinent to Trivia argument), I wonder why this would not be true for all other futball clubs articles. What's so special about Flamengo in this matter? Regards, --Abu Badali 16:06, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for participating in the discussion. Well, as for "the perfect fit", it's not so much an opinion as it is a fact: after all, it is a perfect fit in the sense that it is completely contained in the section (whereas at the top – and this is my opinion – it seems to disturb the layout of the first part of the article, as it spreads over multiple sections). You are right that it is theoretically possible that the article could change and the "perfect fit" could cease to exist. But considering the article's history, that is not too probable. I was actually (if memory serves me) the last one to add significant amounts of content to the article. After that, people have only added loose sentences, clarifications, players' and coaches' names to the lists, etc. — and the infobox itself, but that was done as a standard thing for all the articles on football clubs.
About the second argument, it's not that Flamengo itself is special in any way, it's just, as I said in my original post, that articles about similar topics (in this case, football clubs from Brazil) can be developed differently. A number of factors can weigh in this, such as the level of commitment of the contributors who may add more information, in more detail. The articles are not standardized, and they are not structured in the same way. So, what I meant was that for the way the Flamengo article is structured and developed (which is not the same as those of Fluminense, Botafogo, etc.), the infobox in the Trivia section seems to work best for the reasons I stated. Regards, Redux 22:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

One good reason to keep the infobox on the top is that in this position it gives some basic info about the club, useful to the reader who do not have enough time to read the entire article. Also, in my opinion, it looks weird see the infobox in a position different from the top of the article (especially because Flamengo seems to be the only football club in Wikipedia whose infobox was moved to other position). The football infobox (as well as other similar infoboxes, like the taxobox, the comics hero infobox, the country infobox and the president infobox) seems to be designed to be placed on the top. The suggested football manual of style of Wikiproject Wikifootball also places the infobox on the top of the article. About the perfect fit argument, the fact that the infobox is completely contained in the trivia section doesn't seem to be a reason strong enough to justify moving it to there. About the pertinent argument, I really do not think that is a good idea to place the infobox there, because there is no need to have the same basic information duplicated in the same place (the trivia info and the infobox gave some info about the club's stadium and nickname). It is better, because of this reason, to place the infobox on the top, and let the trivia section stay where it currently are. Regards, Carioca 22:42, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Fine. We can keep it there then. It still doesn't look like the best option to me, and I'm always reticent about standardization, but it's not a big deal anyways. Regards, Redux 01:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Supporters

I think it would be of worthy to point out that Flamengo has the largest number of supporters in all of Brazil, being the fifth ranked in Sao Paulo (a rival soccer city), and with the exception of perhaps some Chinese team, the largest in the world. LtDoc 04:07, 25 July 2005 (UTC) ),

This is a good idea, but I doubt that Flamengo is the football team with most supporters in the world. The only info I found about Flamengo's supporters size in Brazil can be found in this link and in this other link. Regards, Carioca 22:42, August 24, 2005 (UTC)