Talk:Cyrus cylinder

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Contents 1 Copyright Violation 2 Serious problem 3 "Charter of Human Rights" 4 Made-up? 5 Full translation of Cyrus Cylinder 6 Why is it kept in England 7 "Ancient Egypt" 8 RE: Pahlavi 9 Problems and possible edit 10 Wording 11 Rolling back rollbacks 12 Jona's edits 13 Monotheism? 14 CAIS 15 Conflict of Interest? 16 Finding common ground 17 POV 18 Edits by Amizzoni 19 The same old problem

[edit] Copyright Violation

After googling for more info I found that a good portion of this article is plagiarized from here and/or here. How do I report this? I'm too lazy (and busy with other articles) to rewrite this right now. Stuff like 'continents' needs to be changed as well. Khirad 09:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear Wiki administrators;

The above information is false. I added the article from The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies. The article was written by founder of the organization himself. According to their copyright policy:

Unlimited distribution is permitted without permission (unless otherwise noted) subject to:

The files will be used for Non-Commercial (no fee is charged to the users), your personal and educational use only.

The entire contents (Textual & Graphic) including the header, the author name, are not permitted to be altered.

The source (including web link address: http://www.cais-soas.com) should be acknowledged.

The copyright notice (Copyright © 1998~ CAIS) should remain intact.

I even sent the author an email and aknowledged him about adding his article to Wikipedia.

Though the article was not taken from http://www.iranchamber.com ,but I contacted them (I thought maybe someone from that society is doing the deletions); and here is their reply:

Dear Mehrdad,

We never add, remove or edit anything to, from or on Wikipedia.

We were also noticed by some editors of Wikipedia that some people are adding materials from our site, and asked our permission to keep them on Wikipedia. In all of the occasions we did not express any objection. But later we did notice that some pictures and articles are removed again. We believe these removals and unnecessary editing's more or less caused by an unmanaged group of editors who are crossing each others works.

We support the cause of Wikipedia as a free source of information, and our copyright notice is only subjected to the commercial use of our materials which we do not grant any permission for such purposes at all. Above all we support what ever can more introduce our beloved Iran to the world.

Best regards,

Shahrzad Rouzrokh Editor of Iran Chamber Society http://www.iranchamber.com

Regards, --Mehrdad 06:42, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, the policy: "The entire contents (Textual & Graphic) including the header, the author name, are not permitted to be altered." conflicts with Wikipedia policy. All Wikipedia articles must be able to be edited. Wikipedia can't be used simply as a mirror for other people's essays. If you wanted to write your own article, and then provide a link to this person's essay, then that would be fine.--JW1805 16:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Serious problem

1) There is no evidence cited by any serious historian that the cylinder has anything whatsoever to do with Cyrus.

2) The text is known to be highly fragemented. 99% of the text has nothing whatseover to do with human rights but rather quite opposed concepts such as the divine right of kings and the right of conquest.

The extrapolation seems to be based on a single phrase, the "freeing" of a city from the "yoke" of another ruling class, and the failure to kill the inhabitents as they surrendered instead of fighting. This terminology and practice of not killing the inhabitents of a city that surrenders is notable no sense and indeed ubiquitous throughout history.72.75.18.6 19:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Charter of Human Rights"

Please provide a source for this statement: "In 1971 the United Nations translated and published the Cyrus Cylinder as the first declaration of human rights into all official U.N.languages." The UN translates a lot of things. Did they really declare this decree to be the "first declaration of human rights"? Do legitimate historians agree with this interpretation? The text can be found here. In no way is this a "charter of human rights". --JW1805 03:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

There seem to be different versions of this declaration on the internet. Compare the two at this site and this site. The second site has a version with a lengthy extra part at the end, containing highly dubious material like: "I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign." Some of the hyperbole on the various sites mentioning this declaration make me doubt their accuracy and objectivness. Is there a translation of this text from a reputable source (like the British Museum)? --JW1805 02:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

• Another version here, with an additional opening section not found in the other two versions. --JW1805 03:16, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

That is the real problem, I did a lot of searching but I was unable to find the real UN translation. Many sites translate it themselves and so the result is different. I will continue my search. --Aytakin 04:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________________________________________

The best place for a translation of the Cyrus Cylinder is, unfortunatly, in university libraries. There are many people adding their own parts to this so-called 'declaration of human rights'. It is no such thing. I have studied the cylinder as part of my dissertation (and I can read Akkadian) and I can assure you that many of the web sites are simply telling lies regarding the content of the cylinder. Basically, Cyrus was presenting himself as a ligitimate ruler of Babylon whilst trying to 'demonise' the previous ruler, Nabonidus. The 'human rights' stems from the Jewish tradition and has its roots in the fact that the Persians apparently gave them money to re-build their temple. It is no accident that Cyrus is praised in the bible yet is strangly absent from Persian epics. Cyrus was also used as an example of a good King by Xenophon of Athens in the Cyropedia, but this is purely a piece of rhetoric and most shcolars agree that it bears no resemblance to the 'real' Cyrus. In all, Cyrus was a very canny politician. He knew what he had to do to legitimise his rule and he made extensive use of propagander to do it. He could be described as 'tolerant' to other cultures as this was another tool to keep the empire (and they were not really intersted in non-Persians worshipping Ahura-Mazda anyway). However, to talk about Cyrus in modern terms of 'Human Rights' is ridiculous. It must be noted that Babylon was one of Persia'a 'hotspots' (along with Egypt) and there were several rebellions here. That is until Xerxes, the fourth King, decided to exterminate much of the population to keep them quite, as well as impose ridiculous levels of taxation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.253.63.15 (talk • contribs) 11:08, December 13, 2005.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

This is very true, the only current relieble source of the translation is only university libraries. I have a translation to Farsi of the cylinder, which was published in باستان شناسی و هنر ایران (Archeology and Art of Iran) which was a very respected journal written during the rule of Mohammad Reza Shah by scholars. But the problem is its in farsi and I tried getting it translated, but then the problem was the translators don't know the historical terms, which messed it up. There are many good versions in Farsi and French, but none in English. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________________________________________

One of the reasons Wikipedia is fast becoming a joke is the comments above. People with no real expertise in a field tearing apart and reconstructing history to reflect their own personal beliefs. Cyrus the great may indeed have not been perfect, but the facts speak loudly that he was more than just a "canny politician". It may be fashionable to find middle eastern historical figures and ascribe them with hidden motives and evil characteristics, but genuine scholars do no such thing. The foremost expert on Achaemenid Persia, Professor R.N.Frye (who I have indeed met, and who is incredibly astute), says this in "The Heritage of Persia" (pp. 123-134):

"In the victories of the Persians... what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica..... If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World, .... the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen' was one of their important legacies"

While the translations indeed may be overambitious in what they purport to translate, and have tacked on various meanings, including some wishful thinking, let's not turn this discussion, and Cyrus' Cylinder, into something else to suit political agendas. The Cylinder is unique, and so was Cyrus, so much so that his enemies respected him and his honor. The tradition of announcing reforms at the beginning of rulership is not unique, and thus this may not be the first declaration of human rights, but it is a very significant one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.62.119 (talk • contribs) 09:17, December 17, 2005.

TO ADD ON, the part I mentioned that I agree with the comments made by the unsigned user, I only meant the fact that its hard to find a relieble source for the translation, with the rest of it I do not agree with. I just want to clear that up!! --(Aytakin) | Talk 22:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Made-up?

A good part of this translation is made-up. The Babylonian text is in fragments and never as perfect as this. I will put on a scientific translation (from a "university library") up soon. --Khodadad 08:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Full translation of Cyrus Cylinder

I have confirmed the translation on http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/babylon05.html to be a full translation of the Cyrus Cylinder and is in agreement with the translation found in "The Inscriptions Relating to the Rise of Cyrus And His Conquest of Babylonia". This book and many others have been scanned and made available in pdf format from www.brainfly.net —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.76.122 (talk • contribs) 15:18, March 22, 2006.

---

UN Translation: Where is the UN translation of 1971? I cannot find it on the UN websites! They spend lots of time and money to do something then hide it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great In 1971, the UN translated it into all of its official languages.

82.70.40.190

---

One would suggest that the people above naming such academics as Frye read more up-to-date studies on Cyrus, such as the Acheamenid History Workshop series of publications that have changed the way Persia itself is studied. I did not, I think, present a picture of a demonised Cyrus, just a more realistic one. I have spent many a year studying this most famous (in the west - his impact on the eastern tradition of ancient folklore is limited) monarch and have deep respect for his achievements and the dynasty he created. It is now unfortunate that the myth preceeds the man...

Further to the disscussion, the best place to find an accurate and accepted (though by no means totally uncontested) translation is in Maria Brosius' book on Persian inscriptions as part of the LACTOR series:

Brosius,M (2000) 'The Persian Empire from Cyrus II to Artaxerxes I' in London Association of Classical Teachers 16: London.

This is the text usually presented to university students to study, at least in the UK anyway. Oppenheims text (cited above) is, unfortunatly, now considered 'out of date' (if I may use so bold an expression) though it does contain much colour in the prose.

[edit] Why is it kept in England

Shouldn't the Cyrus Cylinder be kept in Iran as it is their property, or is it that the Shah let them keep it as he was nothing but a puppet of the England.

It should, as well as many other historical objects held by the British Museum that belong to Iran, but unfortunatly because many of the these objects were stolen from Iran and later were "found"/bought by the british museum, Iran can't get it back, partly because of the law and partly because they really don't care! --(Aytakin) | Talk 20:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The Tehran museum owns a beautiful Greek inscription from Nehavand; I think the Iranian government would not give it to the Greeks if they demanded it, because it never was in Greece. Equally, the Cyrus Cylinder, written in Akkadian, dedicated to a Babylonian god, found in Babylon, belongs in Iraq. If it were excavated today, the Iraqi government would be the rightful owner.

It is now in London, because it was excavated in Babylon by a team of British-sponsored archaeologists, and the Turkish sultan had agreed to give it to the British Museum. In those days, the usual deal was that the archaeologists could keep whatever they found, except for gold and silver, which were to remain in the countries where it was found. (Therefore, many finds from ancient Iran, like the Code of Hammurabi from Susa, are now in the Louvre.) By nineteenth-century standards, deals like these were perfectly legal, and I think most Arabs and Iranians would have been glad that those foreigners were laboring to excavate gold and silver for them, and did not really care about the other objects.Jona Lendering 00:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ancient Egypt"

Uh, this has nothing to do with ancient Egypt.... 24.148.19.254 15:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Pahlavi

Regarding the edit "Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi has claimed that" [1]

1- Where is your source? Besides the article on your own website which seems to claim this without providing any sources.

2- "has claimed" suggests that he continues to do so. However I think we both know that he is no longer with us :) --Rayis 18:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I do not know who you are replying to but to answer you, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi said that in his speech in his 2,500 year celebration of Iran's monarchy speech. If you want to see it get the film "Flame of Persia" which shows the celebration. In that speech he also read parts of the cylinder. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

As to #1, I will soon be able to publish part of the correspondence with the U.N., and I think that the TV imagery mentioned above will be sufficient. As to #2, feel free to improve my English.Jona Lendering 23:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems and possible edit

There are clearly some problems with this page, not least that it actually contradicts the material on Cyrus the Great. Text copied verbatim from a site which is, to say the least, opinionated doesn't help matters. I made some changes which I think rectify these and help with NPOV. However, I thought I'd check I haven't done anything glaringly wrong before I actually saved the edit, so I put the edited page here. All being well, I'll make the actual change in a day or two when everyone has have had a chance to object to my mutilation of their work.Dan TV 20:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

looks great! Jona Lendering 23:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Good work! A minor point: In note N 14, you could give a link to http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus_cylinder2.html#TEXT instead of to a 1912 translation.--Amizzoni 00:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've changed the note and I'll edit the page shortly. Dan TV 09:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I am gonna go through it all. Thanks for your additions, although most of it is original research with unverifiable material. The claim that Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was the first to refer to it is not a fact, it just seems like a theory claimed by someone on internet. Also Ebadi did not "quote" anyone, and stop making it look like she did, "he would not reign over the people if they did not wish it" is not a direct quote, and should not be treated as such. Also the other parts I am going to move here for discussion:

"However, it can also be argued that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were more or less usual for a conquering monarch in contemporary Babylon and the surrounding area^[1]. By this argument, Cyrus may have been unusually generous, but the Cylinder cannot be regarded as a charter guaranteeing rights. At least one translation of the Cylinder’s text found online has been ‘elaborated’ with promises founding Cyrus’ right to reign on the acceptance of the people^[2]. This is in contradiction with the early part of the text, which recounts the god Marduk’s offer of a tyrannical monarch’s kingdom to Cyrus, founding his conquest on divine right^[3]."

This is problematic because there are a lot of things that can be argued, but wikipedia is not a place for it. Carry out your original research elsewhere and get it published first, on a reliable peer-reviewed and neutral academic journal. --Rayis 20:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, excuse me for my last change, it wasn't bad intentioned -I didn't even get the right place! For more references to the paragraph you moved here, see the following:

"[A]lready prior to the identification of the relevant fragment [i.e., the Yale fragment mentioning Assurbanipal] [J. Hamatta] had remarked on the similarity of style between the Cyrus Cylinder and the inscriptions of Assurbanipal. In this connection, CBF Walker correctly remarked that the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights (Walker 1972:159; see also Kuhrt 1983; Van der Spek 1982)."

(from M. Dandamaev A Political History of the Achaemenid Empire, pp. 52-53, the publications refered to are: A. Kuhrt "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 25 pp. 83-97., B. van der Spek, "Did Cyrus the Great introduce a new policy towards subdued nations? Cyrus in Assyrian perspective" in Persica 10 pp. 273-285, and C.B.F. Walker, "A recently identified fragment of the Cyrus Cylinder", in Iran 10, pp. 158-159; if you search "cyrus cylinder" + "human rights" you can get the relevant passage in http://books.google.com/)

Furthermore, Jona Lendering is not just "someone on internet", notice that he's an scholar, and that Livius.org is indexed in Abzu (also known as the Holy Canon of Ancient Near East Online Resources), of the Chicago University Oriental Institute. It doesn't means that all that he writes is true, but we can take him as a serious source.

I agree that there is a problem with the last sentence, it can't reference to the Cylinder itself -it would be original research-, and I also believe that words like tyrannical sounds quite sensationalistic, so we should refrase it, or just remove it.--Amizzoni 01:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Amizzoni please feel free to add what you will with the proper sources. I have no doubt that Lendering is a respectable scholar but that article on his website was not what I would call academically written and therefore should not really be used as a source on Wikipedia. After all this is an Encyclopedia and only notable research should be used as evidence. Thanks! --Rayis 14:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"However, it can also be argued that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were more or less usual for a conquering monarch in contemporary Babylon and the surrounding area. (etc.)

This is problematic because there are a lot of things that can be argued, but wikipedia is not a place for it.

I think a reference will fix this problem, and suggest two articles already mentioned above: Amelie Kuhrt "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 83-97., Bert van der Spek, "Did Cyrus the Great introduce a new policy towards subdued nations? Cyrus in Assyrian perspective" in Persica 273-285

Maybe this helps. I am currently suffering from a server crisis, but will soon put up a PDF of a part of the U.N. correspondence, kindly sent to me by a scholar from Chicago.Jona Lendering 15:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good job on the article so far. Although can you please again, explain this:

"By this argument, Cyrus may have been unusually generous, but the Cylinder cannot be regarded as a charter guaranteeing rights"

- Arguably, no charter of human rights will ever "guarantee" anything so I am not sure what this sentence is trying to imply here. --Rayis 13:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course, call this a "Dutchism". What I meant is that it is to be seen as propaganda, not as a charter.Jona Lendering 18:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh I understand now. That is actually a very valid point - and I will try to build on that when I get time. It is known that Cyrus wanted to be a popular ruler that is loved by the people rather than a strict ruler who scares the people in order to control them --Rayis 18:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wording

For criticism section, there needs to be a more clarified paragraph explaining Cyrus's policy that he wanted to make people like him (rather than the word propoganda), and also stop putting "it cannot be regarded as charter guaranteeing rights" or anything like that which doesn't make sense. --Rayis 21:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it all seems almost fine on this article. Lets keep it short on the Cyrus' article. --Rayis 21:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rolling back rollbacks

Rayis had asked additional references to back up the statement that there are many parallels for the CC, which I inserted; I also polished the notes and reworked the propaganda bit, offering more context. I thought it was fine, but it was all removed and an incorrect summary was inserted. I have now rolled back that rollback. I propose that people who want to roll back large sections, as was done, will announce it first.Jona Lendering 14:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jona's edits

*Besides, Mary Boyce has made it clear in many publications that the Iranian religions of that age were not monotheistic,^[4] which makes it impossible to state that Cyrus, although himself a monotheist, allowed his subjects to keep their own beliefs.

Because the Cyrus Cylinder can not be used to support the late Shah's opinion about Cyrus, at least one falsification has been made, probably before Fragment B was discovered. It can be found online and has been ‘elaborated’ with promises founding Cyrus’ right to reign on the acceptance of the people.^[5]

-> Jona, this is all your original research and findings! what you conclude from evidence you choose to accept, is YOUR conclusion. There is no evidence that Mohammad Reza Shah was the first to call this a charter of human rights, and there is absolutely no reason for you to go all the way on to research to prove him wrong!. --Rayis 17:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to use expressions like "nonsense". See your p.m. for reply.Jona Lendering 17:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monotheism?

Alright. Well, you can't use a book on Beliefs and practices of Zoroastrianism to make up a conclusion regarding whether Cyrus would or wouldn't be tolerant of other religions. Mary Boyce in her book does not conclude anywhere that "it is impossible to state that Cyrus, although himself a monotheist, allowed his subjects to keep their own beliefs." I think that is very much your personal conclusion. --Rayis 18:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid there are two misunderstandings here. (a) I did not say that Cyrus was intolerant; I only said that one cannot deduce his tolerance from the CC. (b) Far more important -and I should have been more explicit about this- is that Mary Boyce uses an extremely rare definition of monotheism. Here it is, from Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism (1984, page 167): "belief in one eternal God, Creator of all lesser beneficient divinities", which she opposes to the later, pure monotheïst doctrine that we can todat encounter in Iran. In other words, Boyce's "monotheïsm of Cyrus" is in fact some sort of polytheism. (The technical term, which we must perhaps introduce, is henotheism.)

Note that Cyrus' younger contemporary Darius was a henotheist-polytheist: he calls Ahuramazda "greatest of the gods", plural (e.g., DH). Herodotus -for what he is worth- is quite explicit that the Persians were polytheists, sacrificing to "Zeus, the sun, the moon, fire, water, and the winds" (Hist. 1.131). I conclude that Cyrus was not a monotheist.Jona Lendering 21:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Mary Boyce, in her "Zoroastrians: Their religious beliefs and practices" argues:

"Cyrus' actions were, moreover, those of a loyal Mazda-worshipper, in that he sought to govern his vast new empire justly and well, in accordance to Asha" pp55

(Mazda = Ahura Mazda, Asha refers to idea of cosmic balance in Zoroastrianism)

I have no idea where you are going with this, but I don't think this has anything to do with this article. --Rayis 22:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The claim was made in the article that Cyrus tolerance for other religions is so special, because he is a monotheist. But he wasn't; he was a polytheist (or a henotheist), which would have made it easier for him to accept other religions.

"a loyal Mazda-worshipper" does not necessarily mean monotheist. Artaxerxes II was a loyal Mazda worshipper too, but he also dedicated inscriptions to Anahita and Mithra.

You bring up the subject of Zoroastrianism. I think this is, for the present article, unnecessary. If Cyrus, Darius, and Xerxes were Mazda-worshippers (which is a fact), they were not necessarily Zoroastrians. Cf. Catholics and Protestants, venerating the same Trinity, reading the same Scripture, focusing on the same Apostles etc, but they are still two religions. I am afraid that we do not enough about Iranian religion in the pre-Sasanian age to be more specific than the following things: (a) the rulers of the Achaemenid house venerated Ahuramazda; (b) they may have been Zoroastrians, but we can not be certain; (c) they were henotheists.

As far as I am concerned, we leave Zoroastrianism out, and opt for Cyrus as a henotheist, not a monotheist, which makes his tolerance less strange than is sometimes assumed.Jona Lendering 23:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

If I'm reading this right, both of you have the same issue, but you are each looking at it from a different angle. First, if I'm not mistaken, the offending sentence is: "He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own monotheist beliefs."

1. Now, if I'm reading Jona's comments right, his problem with the "monotheistic" clause are the semantics. To explain, I'm going to take out the adjective from the sentence so that it now reads: "He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own beliefs". Now, do you see the problem? What the sentence is now saying is that his own beliefs forbid his subjects from worshipping other gods. Of course, that is precisely the opposite of what Boyce is saying, which is that Cyrus' actions are in accord with Mazdaen belief. (whether Mazdaen belief is monotheistic or not is hardly an issue for an article on the CC).

2. Rayis' problem is also with "despite" but from another angle, and in the implication that just being of one persuation is an indication that one might be intolerant of another. But I think both Jona and Rayis are actually in agreement on this, both objecting (rightly so) to the idea that the CC exemplifies Cyrus' tolerance.

May I suggest that you nuke that problem sentence altogether? It doesn't add to the substance of the article, and IMO Cyrus' personal values and attitudes are not relevant to the CC. For all we know Cyrus could have been a mean, wife-beating SOB, but projected himself as a nice guy because it suited his policies. I'm not saying that he was that, I'm only saying that only his policies - not his personal values - may be inferred from the CC. That the article at this point cites a source that does not corroborate the statement makes it much, much worse.

-- Fullstop 15:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

ps: there is a high incidence of <refs> to CAIS, cfiwest.org and iranchamber.com in the "Charter of Human Rights" section, effectively tainting an otherwise good article.

I think you are right and that your proposal is a good one. I have sort of agreed with Rayis that he would revise the article, and I will leave it at this. As to your PS: the three sites you name are indeed based on pre-Schaudig stuff. In the past years, I have mentioned it to them, but they never replied. (CAIS has three times put photo's online, claiming copyright, which were in fact mine.)Jona Lendering 18:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CAIS

There are loads of entries from IranChamber and Livius too. CAIS was part of SOAS (University of London), and it is considered as a scholarly based website. Most of the articles there are written by renowned archaeologists and historians. However, other two websites, IranChamber and Livius are both private-websites with no academic affiliations, and should be treated cautiously. Surena 08:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

(a) The CAIS has in the past claimed association to the SOAS. CAIS also used my, copyrighted, stuff. When I demanded that the CAIS mentioned my name, and received no answer, I wrote to the SOAS, which was very upset, because to the best of their knowledge, there was no affiliation whatsoever. The CAIS has later changed the reference on its website.

(b) A private website is not necessarily a bad website. Universities can not give away their articles for free (see the lack of access to JSTOR), which Livius can. I can assure you that I have my its academic credentials, and if I do not call myself "doctorandus" or "professor", that's because I think that arguments must be true regardless of one's title. The only kind of paperwork in which academicians should sign with titles, is a letter for Amnesty International.

(c) The issue is, essentially, not about ownership, but about quality, and that means: do you quote the latest insights? Or to make it even simpler, is the work by Pierre Briant used?Jona Lendering 15:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC

I really don't known about your history with CAIS or SOAS. However, only thing that I known for fact, when I was student as SOAS, for over two years I was attending (as a student) CAIS weekly workshops, which was held at the department of Archaeology. However, I'm not accusing you of anything, but it is quite surprising that SOAS denied of their knoledge or affiliation with CAIS! Surena 16:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

PS - PS. I just done a [search] on CAIS website, and contrary to your claim, they have acknowledged your website as well as your name as the source of number of images in their website. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. Surena 17:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That's after I forced them to admit that they had no longer an affiliation to the SOAS. And as to stealing photos, look at this one and the statement of the bottom of the page. And now look at this photo, which we made about a year and a half ago. This is some sort of "implicit" plagiaranism: the (c) of course only relates to the text, but SOAS-members have also put photos I made online saying "(c) [Name]".Jona Lendering 00:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment:' Jona, isn’t strange that CAIS acknowledges you as the source of number of images in their website, and deny you “only one” picture?! As you known these days, images and data are floating around Internet, to the point that no one knowns the original source; have you ever considered it may be the case? It maybe obtained from other sources than yours. I saw Karl von Ribbentrop of CAIS few days ago at Sasanian Conference at SOAS, and if I knew about this, I would have asked him. Anyhow, I have already sent him an email mentioned your claim, and I think you should do the same. Surena 04:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Surena: it is not "only picture", it is a series. CAIS has claimed affiliation to SOAS which it did not have, and much to the embarrasment of the SOAS. They put their references to my photos online only after they had been warned. I remember seeing one of my photos of the Susa statue of Darius in the Wikipedia, and someone related to the SOAS stating that he was the photographer and released his work to the public domain. Finally, if photos are floating around the internet, isn't it remarkable that they were quite capable of identifying me as the maker of several photos I have never complained about? They systematically infringe upon my copyright. I'm really easygoing about it - the other day, I uploaded several photos to the wiki, no problem. The only thing I ask is that people mention Livius. That's all. If someone else claims the photo is his, he is a thief, because no one can be as absentminded as to forget which photos he took himself.Jona Lendering 11:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Jona I agree, and I do sympathise with you. You have every right to demand acknowledgement, but I was saying CAIS may have obtained the photos from somewhere else, rather than your site, and that is why they have not acknowledged you (that is my guess). Still I believe you should contact them and demand attribution. Surena 11:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of Interest?

• Jona - Your userpage, reads as: "webmaster of Livius.Org, and am employed by Livius Onderwijs". And after studying you contributions, which I must say are great, in almost every entry you have used your own webiste as reference, which in a way considered as POV; (examplaes: Battle of Gaugamela, Cyrus cylinder, Zopyrus, Persian Gates, Ariobarzan, etc). Are you aware that Wikipedia prohibits self-promotion? Surena 08:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point, but there are three objections.

(a) If I see an article that is obviously plagiarized from my website (e.g. Ariobarzan), I think it is better to offer a link back to the original source than to remove the article altogether.

(b) Often, my articles are the latest on a subject. Take for instance Gaugamela, in which I have I have used the 2003 publication by R.J. van der Spek, and have shown that an "eastern perspective" is both necessary and possible. Or take the Persian Gates: my web site is the only one at the moment that takes Speck's publication into account. In my view, that is not self promoting, but promoting the latest insights. But whatever you call it, it is not self promotion in the sense as as the Wiki defines it, because it is not an advertisement, not a reference to a personal page, and serves no commercial interests (Livius Onderwijs is non-profit). I am just giving up-to-date knowledge away for free.

(c) Or take the discussion about the CC; the "human rights charter interpretation" is based on outdated books and, essentially, propaganda. Because I think that propaganda and outdated books are bad things in an encyclopedia, I wrote to Schaudig to ask permission to put his, recent, edition online; and because Rayis made the reasonable request for more evidence for the (among scholars perfectly common) view that the CC is not something revolutionary and that the Shah promoted this text as a Human rights charter, I put additional evidence online too, although the references to the articles by Kuhrt and Van der Spek were sufficient evidence. I can not help it that I have to refer to my own webpage, although I know that in April the British Museum will also put online "my" Schaudig.

If you know a better solution, just let me know.Jona Lendering 15:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Well main problem here is that all of your Wiki-contributions are your own personal views/opinions, which are supported by your own website and articles! In fact, I was reading your article about Cyrus Cylinder, and that is not the way a neutral-historian writes. It seems you have something against Iranians, which all your angers and hatreds have been projected into that article. Surena 16:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, I agree. This is why only academically and scholarly written articles should be used as reference in an article on a encyclopedia, especially in a dispute. Not an article written in such manner with such POV. It's bad enough as it is, and now that the scholars are coming on Wikipedia to push their POV on to the article and use their website as reference for it! In any case I have reported it on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents feel free to comment there. --Rayis 17:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) --194.145.161.226 17:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Cyrus_cylinder/Uncivil_remarks_by_194.145.161.226 --Rayis 20:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

How come you sign your IP address, instead of your Username? Surena 18:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It's an old habit. I almost never used to sign with my user name, even at the time when I contributed every day (God forbid that I relapse into that condition again). --194.145.161.226 19:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

For a tiny moment I though you might be Jona, impersonating himself and using himself as reference! Anyhow, with regard to Jona’s preconceived-notion, as you put it "emotional”, Wikipedia has different name for it; -- It is called WP:AWW. Surena 19:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Since the problem is with Livius, I don't see any reason to remove this:

"However, it can also be argued that similar gestures to those recorded on the Cylinder were made by some conquering monarchs in contemporary Babylon and the surrounding area. According to this argument, "the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights"^[6]."

Note 6: "A. Kuhrt "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 25 pp. 83-97, B. van der Spek, "Did Cyrus the Great introduce a new policy towards subdued nations? Cyrus in Assyrian perspective" in Persica 10 pp. 273-285, M. Dandamaev A Political History of the Achaemenid Empire, pp. 52-53. The quotation is from Dandamaev."

Well, I put it here to prevent war editions. I believe it is not POV because it is balanced with the previous part (Frye, the UN, etc). So if you agree, just add it to the article.--Amizzoni 00:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Amélie Kuhrt of UCL (University College London) and her works are quite well known among the scholars and historians. She is anything but neutral; She has already lost her credibility and considered a biass person. Last year, she claimed that Cyrus was an not an Iranian at all! However, Muhammad Dandamev, is a different matter; - His views and works have always been considered as neutral sources. Nevertheless, we have to approach that issue from consensus view rather than pick one or two, to suit and serve our views (biasness). Surena 03:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV doesn't mean that we must use sources we consider neutral, it means that we must write about all the opposing opinions with neutrality, even if we think they are biased or foolish. And we must cite our sources. In the case of Kuhrt: we can cite an article that states Kuhrt's "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" is biased, but Kuhrt's assessments must stay -the reader will judge. So if you find an article or a book criticizing Kuhrt's view, so please add it. Concerning Dandamaev: Yes, a quotation can be used "to suit and serve our views". For example: suppose that Dandamaev wrote "[CB Walker, Kuhrt and van der Spek says that] the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights[, but I do not agree with them]", then I pick up "the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights", and voila! But it is not the case. The whole sentence says "CBF Walker correctly remarked that the Cyrus Cylinder is a normal building inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition, and can certainly not be regarded as some declaration of human rights (Walker 1972:159; see also Kuhrt 1983; Van der Spek 1982)." It is very explicit that Dandamaev does not think the Cyrus Cylinder is a declaration of human rights.--Amizzoni 06:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Sure. I have no objection with what you are implying here. My point is that we cannot reject the idea, on the bases of Kuhrt’s or Kuhrts-alike views. We have to hear both side of the stories, and then decide which school of though we wish to subscribe to. I personally believe Kuhrts-alike views with citations should be mentioned in the article, but in a scholarly manner. i.e. NO WP:AWW. PS. I personally, do not consider Kuhrt as a scholar, just because she lectures at UCL. With regard to your strong statement as: It is very explicit that Dandamaev does not think the Cyrus Cylinder is a declaration of human rights”, you must have a source that I’m not aware of! Both Dandamaev’s articles reading Cyrus are rejecting your statement [1], [2]. Surena 07:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This articles are originally from the Encyclopedia Iranica as far as I know [2]. In fact, they don't contradict A Political History...--Amizzoni 20:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That's fine with me. It would be even better if those who claim that the CC is a human rights charter start quoting scholarly articles published in, say, the twenty-first century.Jona Lendering 00:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment:' No body has claimed that the cylinder is a definite "Charter of Human Rights"; It is Considered to be one! However, you claim to be a historian, and as historian you should know better that you have to examine the evidence in a cultural and historical contexts, with cross-examinations form other sources. Cyrus Cylinder is being considered as charter of human rights in its' primitive form, not because he (Cyrus) himself said so (or as you mentioed Shah propagated in 70s), but because of the historical evidences to support his claim; evidently through number of sources; Jewish and Greek accounts, as well as cultural contexts, geopolitical formation of the ancient World. Nobody has claimed that the Achaemenid were god-sent angels (contrary to other nations' claim to be the chosen people!). Of course to manage a vast empire, you have to be brutal, but in general Achaemenids’ tolerance in ancient world was well known, to the point that even their Greek enemies, had testified and praised them. Imagine “Hitler” write an eulogy about himself, and not only twenty-five, but two hundred and fifty century later, still he cannot portray himself as “the Anointed of the God”, since his actions contradict his claim. However, Cyrus could back his claim,-- as mentioned through textual sources, as well as the Achaemenid Arts; evidently from Persepolis reliefs, which is showing harmony and peace.Surena 03:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The Persepolis reliefs were made by Darius, not Cyrus. But I agree that Cyrus was a nice exception in the history of the Near East. However, the issue is whether the CC can be used as evidence for this claim, and that is not the case. The text is stereotypical. We must look for other evidence. I propose to start anew, see next topic.Jona Lendering 11:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Waoo, I didn't know the Persepolis was built by Darius the Great – until now I though it was built by Russians :). Anyhow, I used Persepolis reliefs as example to portray the empire’s tolerance towards its subject-nations, which was based on Cyrus’ doctrine. Also, I have received communication form CAIS, and the picture of Darius statue at Susa that you claim is yours, in fact was taken by Iran’s Archaeological Research Centre in 1972. Also, they are saying that you never contacted them regarding any images, and whatever images that they have copied from your website, the attributions were made, according to your copyright policy. However, Karl Ribbentrop asked me that you should check their website and if you see any images were taken from your website, and the appropriate attributions were not made, they either can delete them or acknowledge you as the source. Surena 22:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finding common ground

Okay, attempt to create something meaningful, in line with decent scholarship, and on which we can all agree.

(a) The latest textbook, which must be our main source of reference, and about which we can all agree, is Pierre Briant's brick, isn't it? (I mean, of course, Histoire de l' Empire Perse, 1995; English translation 2002). I know Briant is not perfect, but his book is simply the best summary there is.

(b) The latest meaningful publications are Kuhrt and R.J. van der Spek, we can all agree about that. So far, I have seen nobody claim anything that is more recent.

(c) The only valid text edition is Schaudig 2002.

I think this can be our common ground, and no one will challenge this. I propose to write an article that only refers to these articles, and not to older stuff (Dandamaev, Frye, etc.). If anyone disagrees, let him/her post articles, written after Briant's well-accepted synthesis, and explain why this particular article is important as an addition to Briant.Jona Lendering 10:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course not. I for one disagree -- Forget about Kuhrt; Kuhrt is far from scholar, and van der Spek although is a good scholar, but his a classist; However, Pierre Briant is a great scholar, expert in Achaemenid civilisation, and I personally have deepest respect for him; but relying on one or two scholars is not enough. Even Briant is relying on his predecessors’ research. Surena 11:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

But at least Briant and Van der Spek (a historian and expert in cuneiform, not a classicist) are a start. Perhaps you are a bit too severe on Kuhrt, because I think her idea belongs to the "wild thinking" that is necessary to break through our Greek sources (cf. Sancisi's "Let's assume that the Median Empire never existed"). But leaving Kuhrt aside, and accepting only references to Briant and Van der Spek, we have a pretty strong basis that is arguably mainstream. Does anyone know post-1995 articles that need to be included too?Jona Lendering 12:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Van der Spek works are mainly focused on Hellenism and Babylonian studies, and was educated as a Classist. However, they’re many great scholars, such as D. Stronach, J. Wisehöfer, J. Boardman, H. M. Koch, as well as Encyclopeida Iranica entires, that we can use for this article. Surena 13:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

PS. Another great scholar is “Albert de Jong”, and though he is linguist and specialised in Zoroastrian studies, but he is considered to be an authority in this field. I think he is the greatest Iranist that Holland has ever produced. Surena 16:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't let Van der Spek read this ;-) He's so proud that he's not a classicist (although he of course learned Greek and Latin, which is inevitable). And believe me I know this, because he used to be my boss when I worked at the Amsterdam Free University...

Meanwhile, how to proceed? I propose one of us must write a simple draft, put it online at the discussion page, and ask for comments. I had the impression that Rayis would write something. Another volunteer?Jona Lendering 14:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Jona. We don’t need to start another article. We can bring the current article to a respectable and neutral status, with no POV pushing. However, I know that you subscribe to the notion, that the purpose of “Cyrus Cylinder” was propaganda – and although I don’t share your view, but I do respect it. However, we can have an entry and call it “Conflicting Views” or "Disputing Views" (or whatever that is not bias), and use the published works of the real scholars, who have no personal or political interests in this matter, to convey the notion that you and others like you subscribe to. In this way, we do not offend Iranians, as they consider Cyrus Cylinder as the Holy Grail; everybody would be happy and the article won’t be vandalised again– Also most importantly the readers can draw their own conclusions -- Of course subject to everyone’s consensus. Surena 15:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Surena: We're absolutely in agreement about this; I had more or less the same idea of inserting a 'conflicting views' section.Jona Lendering 01:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"In any event, the clemency Herodotus ascribed to Cyrus the Great, the aptitudes Xenophon saw in him, his mission according to the Old Testament and his piety as described in the Babylon inscription - all combine in the eyes of many observers to form a harmonious character study of the first Persian king, the historian Joseph Wisehöfer wrote about Cyrus in 1996". Surena, I'm afraid you have to cite passages that explicitly refer to the Cyrus Cylinder. It belongs to Cyrus the Great article, not to here. Where Wisehöfer talks about the Cyrus Cylinder (pp. 44, 49, 87), he calls it "an Achaemenid propaganda document intended to legitimize Cyrus's rule over Babylonia" (p. 87).--Amizzoni 02:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

So before adding something to the article, I suggest to put it here for discussion. --Amizzoni 02:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Are there still controversial remarks on the article or can we start removing the tags? --Rayis 20:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes, of course there are. I have written a new draft for the section "The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights", tell me what do you think:

"The Cyrus Cylinder has been described as the world’s first charter of human rights,^[7] and it was translated into all official U.N. languages in 1971.^[8][9] A replica of the cylinder is kept at the United Nations Headquarters in New York City in the second floor hallway, between the Security Council and the Economic and Social Council chambers.^[10]

Passages in the text have been interpreted as expressing Cyrus’ respect for humanity. It promotes a form of religious tolerance and freedom.^[11] He allowed his subjects to continue worshipping their gods, despite his own monotheist beliefs.^[12] Cyrus' generous policies, support for local religions and stated opposition to repression and tyranny did win him support from his subjects.^[13]

However, it can also be argued that the cylinder is a stereotypical bulding inscription within the Assyrian-Babylonian tradition. By this argument, it can not be considered a declaration of human rights, but a piece of propaganda^[14]. Of course, it does not mean that the Persians imposed a tyrannical rule oven their new subjects; in fact, they are widely regarded as more tolerant than their predesessors Baylonians and Assyrians.

As Joseph Wisehöfer wrote about Cyrus in 1996^[15]:

“In any event, the clemency Herodotus ascribed to Cyrus the Great, the aptitudes Xenophon saw in him, his mission according to the Old Testament and his piety as described in the Babylon inscription - all combine in the eyes of many observers to form a harmonious character study of the first Persian king.”

"

And R.N. Frye in 1963^[16]:

“In the victories of the Persians… what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica… If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World,… the fusion of peoples and cultures in one ‘Oecumen’ was one of their important legacies.”

At least one translation of the Cyrus Cylinder has been elaborated with more promises and can still be found in many websites.^[17]. It can be recognized for the mention of Ahura Mazda and for frases such as: "I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it, and if any one of them rejects it, I shall never resolve on war to reign."

For the content of the notes, see the source (click on edit). Feel free to post any comment.--Amizzoni 22:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

PS: In "in fact, they are widely regarded as more tolerant than their predesessors Baylonians and Assyrians" we can add a reference to the article from the British Museum webpage.--Amizzoni 02:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Amizzoni

Please discuss any major edits here prior to adding to the article. Kurt and Livius are not considered as neutral sources. Kurt is well known for her hatred towards Iranians, and Livius is a product of one or two individuals (sorry Jona), which contains their personal opinions (more like a Weblog) than a neutral and scholarly based website, to be used as a reliable source here. Also as discussed before, we can add a new section to the article such as “conflicting views”, in a respectable manner, which is free from any WP:AWW words, (i.e. “political motives” rather than “propaganda”) or POV pushing to accommodate the notion that you, Jona and alike are subscribing to, without insulting a nation's identity!← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 06:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

PS. I've reinstalled "{{totaldispute}" tag, to prevent any edit war - However, other tag "{{OR}" is no longer required here, since all the data are supported by generally reliable and checkable citations. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 06:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The same old problem

I made major edits because the discussion seemed to be death, and because removing sourced material is vandalism. I agree with you concerning the tags, but I'm affraidd I disagree about almost all. We have to say "Kuht say ...., but .... considers her not neutral". Do you have any source that considers Kuht not neutral? Please add it, but Kuht must stay. This is what NPOV means, to show all the conflicting views. And until you find any source that considers Kuht not neutral, Kuhrt must stay. Note that Dandamaev (in A Political History and his Iranica articles) and Weisehofer cite her article on the Cylinder, and both express nothing but agreement. About the word "propaganda", it is used by Weisehofer, so it must stay. But if you have a source that states "I consider that the use of words such as 'propaganda' to describe the Cyrus Cylinder is a way to insult the national identity of Iran", please, add it, but that Weisehofer uses the word "propaganda" must stay. As you say, conflicting views, but why in a new section, since all the conflicting views are about the subject of human rights? About Livius: it is not in the level of a blog, not at all. Livius is indexed in Abzu, the list Ancient Near East online resources of the University of Chicago. Moreover, it is the only source that says that there are elaborated "translations" of the cylinder -something that we all who have read any scholarly edition of the cylinder know, let agree in this point.

To sum up:

1. I believe that Kuhrt is an scholarly source, so there is no doubt that her statements must stay. You disagree.
2. I believe that the words -like "propaganda"- that our -scholarly- sources use must stay. You disagree.
3. I believe that Livius is neither a scholarly journal nor a blog-level site, but we can consider it as a serious source, as is done all over Wikipedia. You disagree.

Too much disagreement, so I suggest calling a mediator. --Amizzoni 19:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Amizzoni - the discussion may not be active, but it is very much alive. As suggested above you can open an entry and calling it Dispute/Conflicting view or whatever name you want, as long as is NPOV and no WP:AWW to convey the notion that you are subscribed to - same as the section of "Holocaust denial" in the Holocaust article, since the Cylinder's significance for Iranians is as the Holocaust issue for the Jews. With regard to the translation of the Cylinder that is not of Jona, and Livius is not the only blog that has used the translation - you can find it all over the Internet; also Livius it is all over Wikipedia, since Jona has placed it everywhere to promote his own persoanl website (check his contributions!) – Finally you want to call a mediator, by all mean, please do so, I welcome the suggestion. In the meanwhile I open an entry under the “Conflicting Views”, and you may use your Kuhrt and Kuhrt-alike argues, there as long as is no WP:AWW, and accordance with Wikepedia WP:MOS policy. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 02:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

PS. I have created an entry (Conflicting views), and transferred the relevant data to that section, of course with the tag to end this edit war. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 02:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

"Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources, lending them the force of authority without letting the reader decide whether the source of the opinion is reliable." There are no weasel words in the prhase you removed, since it had its comprehensive footnote with all the scholars who support it. With regard to Livius, you misunderstood what I tried to say. Livius is important because is the only source, as far as I know, that states that there are online fake translations of the Cyrus Cylinder. But, well, let stop the discussion here, at least until a mediation started.Amizzoni 02:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we are closer to a solution than I believed. There just a couple things I want to point out:

1. The conflicting views section should be merged into the human rights section, since the conflicting views are about the human rights. I mean something like this: Section: ==The Cylinder and Human Rights==. Subsection 1: ===The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights=== (the present "The Cylinder as a Charter of Human Rights" section]. Subsection 2: ===Denial of the relation of the Cylinder with Human Rights=== (all Kuhrt and Kuhrt-like arguments).
2. You have to allow me to write a conprehensive abstract of all Kuhrt and Kuhrt-like arguments, always stating that they are the author's opinion (I mean, "Kuhrt argues that ...").
3. I'd be very pleased, believe me, if you wrote a third sub-section on the response to Kuhrt-like's arguments (for instance, that words like "propaganda" are considered offensive by Iranians).

If the sections were reorganized as I show it in point 1, I believe would be able to remove the NPOV tags. It is not the solution of all our problems (for instance, it ramains the usage of Livius as a source, and one or two minor points), but I think we are in the good way and we don't need any mediation.--Amizzoni 03:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I do strongly object to the merger that you have proposed. Here we want to convey both sides of the argument, without confusing or deceiving the readers. By having two distinctively separate sections for the each school of thought, then the reader(s) can draw his/her own conclusion. We may not live a democratic world, but let's practise it here.

Also, since we have "Cyrus cylinder#Conflicting Views" section, I as "one of the editors" have no objection of using a comprehensive abstract of all Kuhrt and Kuhrt-like arguments. This would allow both parties to contribute/edit their relevant sections, which are supported, by reputable sources.← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 06:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, you're right. Neither do I want to confuse or deceive the reader. I've just moved the conflicting views section above the biblical one, so if you agree feel free to remove the POV tags.--Amizzoni 20:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Great - it seems we getting somewhere. So I take the liberty to remove them. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 04:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)