Talk:Death Valley

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There need to be a map of the death valley

Contents 1 Radiating... 2 Elevation 3 Possible problems with Salts table 4 Bush Administration position 5 Depth-Temperature Correllation 6 termperature record source? 7 Temperature Range 8 External Link Criteria 9 Extreme Temperatures 10 Trivia

[edit] Radiating...

Re:The valley radiates extreme amounts of heat - The valley itself isn't the source of the heat. Traps heat? Absorbs and radiates perhaps. But it seems 'radiates' is misleading. Ayeroxor 04:07, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)s

Response: The statement is accurate, at least when it is hot. Your mistake seems to be in assuming that it implies something about the valley being in some sense a primary source of the heat, which it does not. Any object whose temperature is above absolute zero radiates heat, regardless of the source of the heat, although heat is also absorbed simultaneously . -- basic physics. Your suggestion of "absorbs and radiates" is also correct. The physiological perception of warmth results when the object is at a higher temperature than the skin, so that there is a net excess of radiation over absorption, which is the common-sense definition of "radiates". Neither a building radiator (filled with hot water) nor a sun-warmed rock is a primary heat source; they are simply warm objects, but the heat they radiate is quite perceptible. -- Mrnatural, 9 Sep 05

[edit] Elevation

I don't see any mention of the elevation of death valley. Can a knowledgeable person comment on that. Thanks.

Badwater in death valley is the lowest point in CA. The rest of death valley is probably below sea level too.

Actually, only a minority of the valley is below sea level -- the area around Badwater Basin. ScottMainwaring 00:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, most of it from furnace creek north to around stovepipe wells is as well.. A few miles north of furnace creek I measured last week at well under -200 feet MSL on the road with a GPS.. (max -232 along the road) (wgs80 datum) I believe stovepipe wells is -100 or so... --Kvuo 23:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible problems with Salts table

The formula given here for borax, Na₂Mg(SO₄)₂·4H₂O, raised my suspicion because it does not contain any boron. It seems to represent some kind of sodium magnesium sulfate. According to the Borax article the formula is Na₂B₄O₇·10H₂O, which is the formula here given for Tincalconite, while the Borax article gives the formula for the latter as Na₂B₄O₇·5H₂O, which is the formula here given for Kernite. -- Mrnatural, 8 Sep. 05

[edit] Bush Administration position

I am suspicious of POV/accuracy of this section. While the author provided links to support the claim, the link only links to a forum's posting. If the claim is true, then it would be better to post links that are more verifiable (ie: newspaper article etc. that qualifies as secondary source. --Hurricane111 19:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

OK - there were a couple of objections so I took it back out. There is a lot going on along these lines - a person I know who took a tour of Jackson Hole and the Grand Tetons last summer was told by the tourguide that these mountains were carved out (created) by the Great Flood reported in the Noah's Ark story (in Genesis). Also this Fall at the Garden of the Gods we were told just before the presentation on how the Rocky Mountains came along (no mention of the Flood in this case, thank gosh!), that the noises we would hear were just fake sounds of rain and thunder unless Democrats were present - the Park Service would arrange for the latter to be soaked. Probably just a personal joke, not suggested by Bush and crew, but nevertheless a sign of the times (and perhaps the local politics). Carrionluggage 20:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Depth-Temperature Correllation

Can someone please explain to me why temperatures increase at lower elevations? --Jorge1000xl 12:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

There is more atmosphere above the ground at that point. It is sort of like adding more blankets. Val42 21:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] termperature record source?

I can't find any source that lists the high temperature of 134.7. What I have found instead is this statement

http://www.piercecollege.com/offices/weather/faq.html#Eeeexcelent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_temperature_extremes

"What was the hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth?

"September 13, 1922 the maximum temperature in Al Aziziya, Libya was 136°F. Though this is the hottest temperature ever recorded, the hottest place in the world is arguably California's Death Valley. Here's an excerpt from pg. 18 in Christopher C. Burt's book, "EXTREME WEATHER":

---

"Temperatures in Death Valley, located 282 feet below sea level in interior California, have been maintained since 1911 at the Greenland Ranch near Furnace Creek. With an average daily high of 115° (sic) and low of 87° (sic) during the month of July, Death Valley is far and away the hottest location in North America and perhaps the hottest place in the world.

"[Death Valley's] absolute maximum temperature of 134° (sic), recorded on July 10, 1913, stands as the hottest ever observed in the Western Hemisphere and has been surpassed globally only by a reading of 136° (sic) measured in Al Aziziyah, Libya, located 20 miles south of Tripoli (not in the Sahara Desert, by the way). A 135° (sic) reading claimed by Tindoug, Algeria is of questionable veracity. The Greenland Ranch figure of 134° (sic) has been the center of a small controversy itself because there is no documentation of the accuracy of the thermometer and condition of its shelter, and no other official reading has ever since come close to this reading. A sandstorm was raging at the time of the observation, and some speculate hot sand or dust was driven into the thermometer casing, inflating the actual temperature.

"A 130° (sic) temperature recorded at Amos (Mammoth Tank) in the Mohave Desert in 1887 is also suspect for the same reasons. So, Death Valley's second hottest readings of 129° (sic) recorded in July 1960, and July 1998 may, in fact, be the highest true maximum temperatures ever recorded in the United States. As weather historian David Ludlum once put it, "Apparently, what this country needs is a good 135° (sic) reading made under standard conditions, so that the figure, like Caesar's wife, may be beyond question.""

The issue must be well known as the various park and US government sources cite the 129 degree 1960 and 1998 events in death valley climate events. Note that any change here should also be reflected in the weather extremes article. I'll make a note there. --Mulp 23:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Article published on the NASA website at www.gsfc.nasa.gov/scienceques2001/20010907.html in September of 2001 indicates that the highest recorded temperure for July 2001 in Death Valley was indeed on July 3rd, but that the temperature was a mere 127F. I am more inclined to believe NASA than an unlogged-in IP address coming out of Norway, so I reverted the temperature records. Zaphraud 18:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temperature Range

From the (current version of the) article:

Temperatures in the Valley can range from up to 130°F (54 °C) in the day in the summer, to below freezing at night in the winter. This is among the widest temperature spreads in North America.

Something doesn't add up there. Either the low end of that range is significantly understated (e.g., instead of "below freezing" perhaps should read "below zero"), or else the width of the range is quite mundane. Pretty much any temperate climate has at least an eighty-degree range from hot summer day to cold winter night, and a 100-degree range is common. Northern Indiana can range from -20 in the winter (actual temperature, not counting windchill factor) to over 100 on a hot summer day (actual temperature, not counting what it feels like with the humidity), for instance, a range of about 120 degrees, and those are just normal temperatures, not records or anything, and Indiana is not widely noted for having a wider temperature range than is usual for a temperate climate.

So which is it? Does Death Valley have one of the widest ranges in North America, or does it only range from a little below freezing up to 130 or so? --Jonadab

• Excellent analysis, Jonadab. If you really want to see a wide temperature range in N.America, go to Fairbanks, Alaska, where summer temperatures of sometimes as high as 80° or more can occur, and winter temps of -50° are commonplace. A 130° range like that is tough to beat, and Death Valley surely does not come close. Unschool 22:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Link Criteria

Hello. I am curious about link deletion. Being new to Wikipedia, perhaps someone might bring me up to speed. I contributed an external link to the Death Valley territory, one with a full array of helpful information, including an A-Z Guide consisting of 300+ explanations of the area, yet the link is deleted by the next day. The site is maintained by myself as a service to others who seek knowledge about visiting the area, so it seems (to me at least) appropriate for inclusion. It is not for profit or personal gain, which leaves me wondering why it is deleted. Here is the link for you to visit, and verify these statements: http://www.deathvalleybackcountrysafaris.com. I have visited other links about the Death Valley area on several of the Wikipedia pages, and am attempting to discover the essence of what allows them, but results in the deletion of mine. Perhaps the person or committee responsible for deleting might be able to answer this question directly. Thank you for your assistance and time!

We want websites that add factual information not included in the WP article, and not available on any other website. Based on a quick sniff, if you have that kind of info, it's not at all obvious, even after clicking through several levels of (attractive) pages. You might do better to provide a link that goes directly to the factual content. Stan 17:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

See my post to User talk:64.28.53.44 for an explanation. The key is in your comment: The site is maintained by myself, if you add a link to your site it is spam and assumed to be a likely promotional attempt, as in free advertising. Quite simply stated, do not add links to your own website. If you can and wish to, you are welcome to add content to the articles involved. I emphasize content, not just external links. Also note any content added should of course be sourced to a reputable reference and not your own original research. Thank you, Vsmith 00:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Extreme Temperatures

The highest maximum temperature ever measured in the world is 87,3 celsius in the late 1880`s and was measured at Ehel in Iran. Ehel is a small town, its located in a deep valley with sanddunes that rises in extreme wind situationes up to about 300-400 meters in extreme wind situationes above the valley floor. The valley is surrounded with big mountains. The valley lays about 35 miles in the inland and islolated and sheltered from the persian gulf.

Other hotspot is: Kuwait 85,8 C

                 Saudi Arbian 85,3 C
                 Iraq 85,2 C
                 Oman 84,0 C
                 Pakistan 83,5 C
                 Mexico 82,8 C
                 Etiophia 82,4 C
                 Turkmenistan 82,3 C
                 China 82,2
                 Kazakstan 82,0 C
                 

Algerie, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Chad, Niger, Tunisia, Eritrea, Somalia and Kenya Have also ecceded over 80 C.

The Hottest Spot in Soth America is in Argentina, were the temperature was 80,5 C. Australia have recorded 80,7 C. Portugal 75,8 C, Greece 78,5 C, France 71,8 C.

USA have recorded a temperature of 75,2 C in Sasabe, Arivaca, Topawa in Arizona. California 74,8 C at Octillo & Amos. Death Valley 74,2 C.

All country in Europe have measured extremes over 40 C ( 104 F ) in extreme heatwaves.

Norway 42,4 C at Støa & Flisa Sweden 45,6 C at Frøvi & 45,2 at Emmaboda. Denmark 45,2 C at Brande & St. Jyndevad. Britain 53,8 C at Lewes & Storrington.

Temperatures over have often a margins of -21 to +43% ( it can change a little more in some very extrme conditions) which mean at some condtions there officials temperatures can be higher then the real temperature, but in most cases lower than the real temperature without margines. Meterologists use margines for a quality control. The percentage of the margin is dynamic and is calculated by the all the weather conditions at that single observation.

The Coldest spot in world is Antarctic were it have been measured - 154,3 C.

--This brings up a slew of valid questions: Hot blowing sand entering the thermometer is disqualified, but if it heats the air what is the official temperature then? What about the temperature of the air over flowing lava, if its a regular feature such as some places in Hawaii have been? If either of these sources of heat, which is clearly from the earth, is disqualified, then what is the criteria by which the "valley effect" of radiant heating all night long is explicitly allowed? If the valley effect is allowed, why isn't the same effect considered valid when it occurs as a result of sand dunes in a desert recieving much greater solar radiation to start with? The only guideline I can think of at this point is historical or expected permanence of similar temperatures (vs. sand dune flukes or shifting lava flows), but if global climate change becomes more dramatic, this point looses validity. Zaphraud 01:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Are the pop culture references really necessary? Death Valley has thousands of references in pop culture, so there's no way to list them all, and the four listed are probably not even the four most commonly known. For instance, Grofe did a Death Valley Suite, but that's not mentioned. The section, like all pop culture sections, reflects the section authors' tastes - it's "Hey, my favorite show mentioned Death Valley, I'll put that in the Death Valley article!" giving the show the emphasis instead of Death Valley.

Texasmusician 04:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Some editors let the trivia accumulate for awhile, then quietly delete the whole section and let it accumulate again, on the theory that those kinds of additions are "introduction to WP" edits of little long-term value, but it's unnecessarily newbie-hostile to insta-revert every time one gets added. Stan 12:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)