Wikipedia talk:Embedded citations

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This page is a verbatim copy of Wikipedia:Citing sources#Embedded HTML links. Having two copies of the same guideline in the Wikipedia namespace seems like a bad idea for several reasons, one of which is that the two copies are likely to get out of sync. Does anyone object to my redirecting this to Wikipedia:Citing sources? I'll wait a week or so for objections and then do it. —Caesura^(t) 13:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Caesura, I created this page because I found the information on embedded html link citations very hard to find. The Wikipedia:Citing sources page is way too long. In the past I've become discouraged and given up when trying to figure out how to add a citation to a page. I would suggest the proper action would be to abbreviate Wikipedia:Citing sources#Embedded HTML links. I'll probably take a stab at it myself later. --Nlevitt 18:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Rename to Wikipedia:Embedded links 2 Cite news template 3 Self Link in Article? 4 Embedded links disadvantages : Spotting references, Web resources not named

[edit] Rename to Wikipedia:Embedded links

This page and citation technique should be renamed to Wikipedia:Embedded links. Wikipedia:Harvard referencing already refers here using this term, and it is much clearer. Embedded citations could refer to any inline citation. Comments? ∴ here…♠ 08:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea. We shouldn't be making embedded links that aren't citations, and the rename implies that it's OK. -- Siobhan Hansa 00:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I agree embedded links should only be citations. However, the name of the article implies nothing about our policy. The name should be appropriate to the tool (even you used embedded links!), and describe what is and isn't ok. I added a note right at the top saying * This style of link should only be used as a citation for a specific section or fact. Other links should be limited to an External links section as described at Wikipedia:External links. ∴ here…♠ 02:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel like we may be talking at cross purposes here. I used the term embedded links because that was the starting point for the conversation. Embedded citations are embedded links, but not all embedded links need be citations and this guideline is about embedded citations (at least, that's my reading of it). It seems to me we ought to use the more specific term so that it doesn't encourage people to broaden the content of the guideline to allow more than citations as embedded links. I don't think I'm seeing your whole point of view - is it just that we should call the guideline embedded links because that's how most people talk about embedded citations?

By the way, I like your edit on the guideline page. Makes it much easier to follow. --Siobhan Hansa 03:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks ;), it's improving! I agree, we're walking by each other somewhere, heh. My intent is that this will 1) be easier to find by title for those using this technique, and 2) bring in folks seeking info on embedded links for other purposes.

I'm under the impression that all embedded links should be citations. Your first comment agrees, We shouldn't be making embedded links that aren't citations. Having link in the title would help bring everyone looking for embedded links, citations or not, to this page. At that point we can explain the details and guidelines, along with any possible exceptions. This is similar to Wikipedia:Footnotes, which has to deal with both footnotes as citations and other usage of old footnote templates and <ref> tag usage. ∴ here…♠ 08:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Even the Manual of Style uses this term to refer to this technique. WP:MoS#External_links. ∴ here…♠ 02:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cite news template

I changed the example to use the cite news template, as this provides consistency and is pretty common on Wikipedia. Sorry, I marked the change as "cite web" by mistake. ---Remember the dot 06:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I was wondering how to work that in. I re-added the manual technique for comparison. I see no problem offering the option. Folks shouldn't need to get templates to try to use this. ∴ here…♠ 08:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self Link in Article?

The first item in the "References" section is a self-link to the article page. Is this intended as a style example? or should it be removed?--Turangalila (talk) 00:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• It's intended as an example; you'll see a link "[1]" near the top of the article, which is the same thing. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 01:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Embedded links disadvantages : Spotting references, Web resources not named

Let's use the JBoss application server article as an example :

Red Hat announced that they were buying JBoss.  Red Hat and JBoss have since completed the acquisition.

The sentence has two embedded links. I see the following disadvantages :

• Spotting references : Embedded links are not automatically linked to a "References" section. This discussion article mentions that they should manually be added to such a section. But what's the point of using embedded links when you can use real references ?
• Web resources not named : In the example external links are used as embedded links. The readers have no idea that the referenced Web pages are Red Hat Signs Definitive Agreement to Acquire JBoss and Red Hat Completes Acquisition of JBoss. This discussion article warns that embedded links can become dead, if so then it's nearly impossible to find the linked resources from their URLs.

This discussion article lists the following advantages :

• Embedded links are easy to visit.
• Embedded links are easy to create and maintain.

I agree that one-clicking a reference is nice but they're in no way easy to maintain. I see them as quick and dirty referencing because the contributors don't even have to actually reference them. They're just URL-linked to the article. I think they just clutter the encyclopedia with useless links, soon to become dead links and lower the overall quality of the project. Comments are welcome. --Goa103 16:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

True, embedded links can become broken links -- but so can links in footnotes. If, however, an editor follows the procedure on the project page, and duplicates the link in a references section as a full cite including retrieval date, there's hope the link can be repaired or dug up in a cache somewhere by the enterprising future reader/editor.

I think using embedded links & manual references can be useful in an article where footnote style might be awkward -- eg: where the article synthesizes highly similar material from multiple sources. In that case you may want to list some online and/or printed sources without <ref>-ing them to any particular factoid, & the embedded links in the text serve more as "for instance" links for material that also could be found in the other references listed. At least that was my thinking when I composed THIS ARTICLE -- in which most of the information could be found in at least 3 or 4 of the sources listed. I think my solution there works OK, though I'd welcome any criticism (Of course that was also a troll for general feedback on the article, which would be welcome at it's talk page or mine).

Incidentally, many of the various help pages, at first, left me with the impression that all external links--even references/sources for the article--had to go into a seperate "External Links" section at the end. The guidelines as they currently stand, taken together, sow a bit of confusion on that point, at least for me.

--Turangalila (talk) 10:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)