Talk:Eureka, California
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/Archive1 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka History.
/Archive2 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka Eureka TV.
/Archive3 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka Law Enforcement.
/Archive4 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka What is the overemphasis on the Negative, including the Methamphetamine issue and the Wiyot Native American Slaughter in Eureka?.
/Archive5 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka WIKIProject CALIFORNIA WATCH NEEDED RePRint of article I submitted to the project .
/Archive6 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka Foundation date.
/Archive7 This archive concerns past discussions regarding Eureka Concern over expansion of very specific issues of Law Enforcement and the addition of a new Homelessness article in light of efforts to bring Article into agreement with WikiProjects US Cities.
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[edit] Discussion of removal of Domestic Violence External Link...Just who do we think the audience is here?
The point of the article and the audience is more to do with the larger demographic than the agenda of particular editors. The link to domestic violence is really inapropriate in this type of article. This is an INTRODUCTORY article on a city. Is that the proper location for specific issues such as Domestic Violence? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.12.129.75 (talk • contribs).
- There are a bunch of links in the external links section of this article that do not fit within the Wikipedia's External links policies. Movie theater listings?
- Among other problems, the Wikipedia is WP:NOT WikiTravel. Unless a tourist attraction is specifically mentioned in the body text of the article, it has no place in the external links, and if the place has its own article (e.g. Sequoia Park Zoo), the external link needs to be only in that article.
- I've now deleted a few external links, plus reorganized the section so that individual links are easier to find. BlankVerse 12:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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- A great job of cleaning up links! We may reduce it further as DAUGHTER articles are spawned or further developed. Norcalal 17:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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- A note on the external links that I left in the article: I didn't check any of them, so someone should check each one to see how valuable they are as an encyclopedia resource. For example: Some added a link to the Long Beach Historical Society to the Long Beach, California article. That would have been great if there was some good information on the website, since the Long Beach article is pretty skimpy and scatter-shot in the history section. Instead, the website had just office hours and info on how to become a member, so it was useless as a Wikipedia link. BlankVerse 12:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Law Enforcement Details
User 24.248.42.81: I have reverted most of your last edits, here are my reasons:
Removal of "He likely will not, however, as there is not sufficient evidence of a crime." I think you are trying to say he will not "win" but nevertheless, this is a civil suit and no one has any idea of the outcome, so what you write is just opinion.
changed "6-00 feet, 180lbs" to "5 feet 11 inches, 170 lbs" why? because this figure is sourced, as in the source link right next to the figure, please follow it and read. This is probably irrelevant detail anyway.
Removal of "10-inch" I have no idea how long the knife was, but I have never seen the size mentioned in any credible source. The cycle of edits that this figure has gone through is astounding. Obviously people have a vested interest in this figure. I think it is irrelevant detail.
Removal of ", liberal, anti-government anarchist" since this pretty much refers to the Green Party (a party that holds governmental posistions in the region and around the country) I hardly see how you can call them "anti-government anarchist" and I think saying "liberal" is really just irrelevant. In any case, you seem to be using these terms in a way very similar to name-calling, that would fall under the category of POV. Wikipedia has a NPOV policy, please read it.--Metatree 20:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Suggestion that Editors consider moving current government and law issues to NEW HUMBOLPEDIA site....
THE FOLLOWING IS THE ANNOUNCE/LINK OF THE NEW SITE... This section now also at the new HUMBOLPEDIA: The Humboldt County Specific Wiki! -the place for local residents and others to share current events and culture -- or anything local to Humboldt County.Norcalal 10:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to Norcalal: For one thing, that site doesn't receive visits as frequently as this Wikipedia article does. With such a low audience range, it is not as effective in educating a casual reader as this Wiki article is. Why do you feel the need to delete/alter/edit information regarding Humboldt County that you may deem unfavorable? These topics (Wiyot conflict, law enforcement issues) are all extremely significant topics in and around the county, and they deserve their places on this Wiki, in order to inform and educate the casual reader. Truth and history aren't always pretty, but that's no reason to go and delete, edit, or alter what's written.
The topics should stay right where they are, instead of getting shoved into a low-traffic website.
In response to the above, I agree some issues should stay right here at Wikipedia, however at Humbolpedia] there is more room to write Opinions and articles on issues from a diferent vantage point. Here at Wikipedia articles should not have a voice rather should be unbiased in anyway. At humbolpedia we will be able to aproach articles in a way that is more expressive. For example there could be a whole page for the Wiot Conflict complete with links to Articles on the subject and Opinions on the each article, each article could then inturn be refrenced to Wikipedia. - I think it will be a good thing.
In response to the above: You can write all of the opinions you want at Humboldpedia. Go ahead. But you can't move articles (which aren't biased in the least bit, thanks) about significant events in Eureka out of this wiki. That's censorship, plain and simple. And if you delete them, then we will continue to put them back.
- I made no attempt to delete the article since the announcement of HUMBOLPEDIA, but did a major reconstruction of the Eureka article in November to improve the overall quality and expand and develop sections based on other model artticles like those on SF and various smaller cities. MY GOAL was to consider sweeping aspects of the community and consider broad interests of typical encyclopedia users. SOME editors in the beating to death of scandal here are ONLY interested in their anger over injustice and somehow think that publishing the minutia of these ridiculous scandals somehow helps it. I am concerned ONLY about what the average seeker may want to find in this type of encyclopedia. This is NOT a blog or a place to grind an axe...especially for an editor whose own local paper- now outdated resource (which has attempted to grind this axe RE: the Eureka PD in the local area and failed) has such low readership. In other words the vast majority of people inquiring here are NOT interested in the dirty laundry. Of note is the fact that persons who may be looking to move here who have considerable social conscious may look elsewhere as they read of this exorbidant level of detail herein that the local police have a major problem. These types in their inquiry might even over time address such issues if they moved here. But in their cursory glance would look at the Eureka and Arcata articles (and in comparison with others) note the sad state of affairs HERE and move to Eugene or some other place instead. So go ahead and continue to shoot your foot off...I am sure it feels good....otherwise why do it? AGAIN, very few people who use this type of resource care about this ridiculous level of detail on these scandals....this is not unusual among many locales in the history and related socioeconomic conditions all accross the country, but the incessant runing on about the scandal at this level of detail in this type of article is bizarre....and sad. The stated goal of education (according to the above editor) does nothing to obliterate the glaring inappropriateness and the insistance of an editor whose own failed publication could not gain support locally, so this individual (and a few others on the fringe) is/are determnined to make the sad news of one local police department the thing of greatest detail and minutia that local kids and visitors remember as they look to this article for basics like population, educational resources, and cultural attributes for school reports and to narrow down cool places to live. They instead dont see how cool it is here in Eureka because the focus demands their attention away from that and toward the unspeakable situations involving certain members of the local police and three unfortunate souls. Good job...aren't you glad you get to run your mouth here now that your paper, the HUMBOLDT SENTINAL failed? Bravo!Norcalal 08:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In response to Norcalal: Way to flip out there, pal. You're the one who looks foolish with such a long-winded response full of insults and assumptions (such as the Humboldt Sentinel remark - with which I have never had any affiliation). Time and time again, I have plainly stated my case here. Here it is, once more: These matters (Wiyot, Law enforcement, etc.) are of great significance to the Humboldt community, and should not be altered or deleted due to their unfavorable light. There you have it. In the future, you should remember to exercise a little restraint, and think your arguments through.
- I referred to the person with that affiliation and OTHERS on the fringe. My argument is sound. Have the editors so categorized contributed anything that would be of use to others that doesnt have something to do with scandal? Interesting how the above editor suggests the high road, yet doesnt sign a name. And the truth remains that ONLY to a few folks are these issues of such great significance in a forum such as this one...but due to the nature of Wiki tolerance, the entire world has to get the blow-by blow detail of the scandal a few are determined to force down the throats of everyone else. Nothing writen here will go to fix the messes locally. But the bad press will continue to beat an already economically depressed area and help GUARANTEE more of these sad events that continue in the wake of the destruction of a now dead economic monoculture (i.e. the loss timber industry, which has never been replaced). Again, I say congratulations. YOU (all of you on the fringe) WIN...BUT DO YOU FEEL BETTER? I think probably not. By the way, have any of you so determined to run this litany of stuff on the local police scandal found any such content on other cities? Well actually in a survey of at least 30 other cities in the nothern part of the state, there is nothing like this. Hmmm...maybe one ought to wonder why?...and consider that it is definitely not for the lack of scandal or drug issues or crimes, including murder in any of the other 30 cities...There is nothing that my argument says that supports the alleged crime of the Eureka PD, what I am saying is that this type of encyclopedic reference is not the soapbox these persons want it to be, it just isn't. And there is nothing appropriate about this issue existing here in such detail. This belongs in a blog and in the local papers, and so on....and everyone, if honest, can have no other conclusion. This will eventually go to arbitration and it will be removed. In the meantime development of the article will continue as a resource for potential visitors and residents and little kids who need to write reports. Those are the things this encyclopedia is for. Again it is an ENCYCLOPEDIA--a general reference... nothing more, nothing less.Norcalal 07:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Everybody, take a deep breath and relax
Both sides of this issue need to assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. (and QUITE SHOUTING!)
Here is an outsider's view: The "Recent government and law enforcement issues" section is way too large, but the information should be covered. It shouldn't be too hard to condense the basics down to a couple of paragraphs. If you want to go into more detail, write up an article for Wikinews instead.
The issues, however, shouldn't be whitewashed. There are plenty of articles on cities that include sections on controversies within those cities, including Compton, California#City Government controversies, Maywood, California#Controversy, South Gate, California#Scandal and corruption, and Huntington Beach, California#City government controversies. That is part of what an encyclopedia article is all about—covering the good and the bad from a neutral point of view without overemphasis on any one particular issue. Notice, however, that those sections in the city articles on local controversies are all brief and to the point.
That should provide a good middle ground. Can everybody work within those guidelines? BlankVerse 05:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- Since nobody followed my suggestion, I've shrunk down the law enforcement section myself. I still think that it's too large, but hopefully it's something that both sides can live with for now.
- To the PacBell/AT&T anonymous editor: Please do not leave notes or argue with other editors in the middle of the article. Remember, this is an encyclopedia. If you have comments or complaints, you should make them here on the talk page. If you continue your unencyclopedic edits, the page will be semi-protected, which means that anonymous IP edits will no longer be allowed. BlankVerse 07:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
***
I suppose that "PacBell/AT&T anonymous editor" would be me, since it sounds like you are referring to what I wrote. And yes, I do have comments and a complaint. If you had left me a note in an HTML comment telling me why you did that instead of just commenting out what I wrote without a word, we could have avoided this misunderstanding completely.
Not only did you not do that but you did not identify yourself as a Wikipedia Moderator, which would also have been easy to do and the professional way of handling this. I would have said ok, I understand that. But since anyone can edit these articles and so few people seem to be interested in the Truth, I figured you were simply removing my note because you disagreed with what I said and because it is so easy to do. So each time you added HTML comments to remove my note, I took them out and put it back. Which I certainly would not have done if you had identified yourself as a Wikipedia Moderator and acted in a more professional manner.
Come to think of it, you haven't identified yourself at all. You can look at my IP Address but I can't do that, and since you haven't identified yourself at all, what am I supposed to think? You could be some punk on a power trip for all I know.
You did notice what I added the last time I removed the HTML comments, didn't you? "And to whoever keeps editing this page to remove my note, do you have any proof that what I said above is wrong? If you don't, leave my note alone if you don't mind. You can check the source like I did if you like. Which is what you should have done in the first place."
The whole point I was making, which is now even more important given your comment about my "unencyclopedic edits" as you called them, is that these articles should not be based on opinions, but on facts. If it is not possible to present facts, they should at least be as close to the truth as possible, wouldn't you agree?
That can be difficult I know, which is why it is commonly accepted that if something is reported by a reputable news source, it is usually accepted as "Truth". And the statement that was made about an investigation in progress by the California Attorney General’s Office against the Eureka Police Department is simply not true. So I pointed this out. Maybe I did it wrong, I don't know. I never said I could write an encyclopedia. But I can read and the article did not say that.
What you did was very unprofessional at best. So if you are in fact a Wikipedia Moderator, instead of threatening to make it so nobody can edit articles, why don't you learn how to be a better Moderator? If you had simply identified yourself as a Wikipedia Moderator, and explained why you were commenting out my note, it would have made a big difference.
Feel free to delete this after you have read it. 71.131.188.100 10:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- If you will look at the article's edit history, you can see that I was not the person who used HTML comments to comment out your additions. The first time, it was commented out by User:Beit Or. The second time, it was commented out by user:Geo.plrd. It looks like neither of them have edited the Eureka, California article before, so they probably noticed your edits doing routine Wikipedia:recent changes or vandalism patrols. I assume that they commented out the note for the same reason that I would have done it—notes to other editors should go on the talk page and not in the article itself.
- Pointing out errors of fact in Wikipedia articles (or what is often a bigger problem, ommision of facts) is a very good thing to do, but you should do it on the talk page, and not in the article.
- If you think a statement needs a citation to back it up, you can add the {{fact}} template after the statement. If you think a statement needs clarification, go ahead and edit the statement (with an explanation of the reasons why in your edit summary). If you think that the statement is incorrect, then delete it (again, with an explanation in the edit summary). Deletions, however, can be contentious, so if you think that anyone might complain about your deletion, it is also a very good idea to explain your reasons on the article's talk page, either right before or right after the deletion..
- note: I am not a Wikipedia moderator, mediator, administrator, sysop, or arbitrator. I'm just another editor—one who is trying to keep this article from getting too messy. I don't have any personal connections to Eureka, so I hope I can help the various editors on the article find an appropriate middle ground that follows Wikipedia Policies and guidelines.
- If you want to know more about me, you can look at my user page, or my talk page. You can even look at my collection of short essays on the Wikipedia. BlankVerse is the user name that I use for almost all of my activities on the internet except for my poetry, so if you look up BlankVerse on Google, you can find my snarky comments on the RMS Queen Mary, among other things (there are a few other people using the same use name, but probably half of the BlankVerse userpages are mine). In some ways, you'll probably learn more about me from following my user name than if I gave you my real name.
- And no, I wasn't trying to threaten you. I was saying what was very likely to happen if you continued to revert back to the same edit, when it is clear that several other editors diagreed and have reversed your edits. That is called revert warring, and it is highly frowned upon on the Wikipedia. If you do that more than three times in a 24 hr. period, that is an automatic temporary block from editing. If it is clear that a rotating group of IPs are doing the reversions (as in your case), the solution could be a temporary block on a block of IPs, or more likely, the semiprotection of the article, which means that registered users can edit, but anon IPs can not edit the article. BlankVerse 13:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
*** Ok, I apologize for the misunderstanding. But I do have to say this is a classic example of why Wikipedia is not taken seriously as an encyclopedia by a lot of people. The articles are quite often biased and or inaccurate. I live in Eureka, and my kids all went to Eureka Schools. And while I admit they are not the greatest schools in the world, (in fact I don't know as I could think any less of them than I do, but that's another story), I can't say that I was surprised when one of them had to completely rewrite a report because they had used Wikipedia as a source of information.
Perhaps the problem is too many editors and not enough verification of facts? I don't know. I have talked to a number of people who have written or corrected articles on here, and the usual story is that it isn't worth your time and effort to do so because there are so many misinformed people writing or editing articles, and that there is not a working system of checks and balances. At first I didn't understand, but I see their point now.
Eureka certainly has it's problems, I don't deny that. But if you don't want this article to "get messy" as you say, I regret to inform you that it is too late. There are portions of this article that are not an accurate description of Eureka at all. In fact, it's not even close. However, in all fairness, I also have to say that if you go by the "Internet Standard of Proof" as I usually call it, the citing of news articles published by reputable news sources, you would be hard pressed to get any good news sources from Eureka. Which is sad but true, because they are all biased in one way or another.
But overall, in spite of some obvious problems and some very misinformed people (like any city large or small), and some of the worst tasting water you've ever had in a mountain community, it really isn't a bad place to live. I have lived here for half of my life and I wouldn't go anywhere else if you paid me. (At least not unless you paid me an awful lot...)
71.131.178.209 21:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- When I first started editing the Wikipedia two years ago, it was a real PITA to do references, so that's the reason that many older articles have very few references, or only have inline links as references. With the fairly recent addition of the CITE extension to the MediaWiki software, it is much, much easier to do references. Add to that the better designed and easier to use group of citation templates, such as {{cite news}} for citing newspaper sources, it is so much easier to do references on the Wikipedi now.
- Many of the newer articles that are being created by regular Wikipedia editors are now well-documented as they are created. It is the older articles that are going to take awhile to document properly. An older large article, such as Los Angeles, California is going to take quite awhile before it is brought up to more current Wikipedia citation standards.
- If you think there are problems in the Eureka article, you can point them out here, or you can start editing the article itself. Just remember that for major deletions, or controversial edits, it is usually best to discuss matters on the talk page before editing. Also keep in mind that as an encyclopedia, it isn't just the Chamber of Commerce view that is presented, but a warts-and-all discussion, done from a neutral point of view.
- As for having problems with using the Wikipedia as a source, you should never cite any encyclopedia as a source. You can use the Wikipedia (or the Encyclopedia Britanica or Encarta) as a place to get ideas, but then you need to go to the primary sources for your references.
- Actually, that's not quite true. I'd still use the Wikipedia as one of my sources for topics such as the internet, where the Wikipedia is likely to be one of the most accurate, up-to-date, and neutral sources available. I'd still never use the Wikipedia as the only reference.
- I'd suggest that if you are going to continue editing on the Wikipedia, to get yourself a user account. Besides making it easier to keep track of all of your edits, and making it easier to communicate with other Wikipedia editors, you can also create a watchlist of articles that you are interested in, so you can see when any of them have been edited recently. BlankVerse 14:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- You are correct. I left the note there because it made a valid point but I commented it out because it should have been on the talk page. Geo. 17:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad there are other cities that cover the negative side, too. To someone who visits, and plans on moving, the entertainment venues are much more obvious than the police scandals. I have also seen a few good signs: The most notorious cop in town has become polite; people are now carrying videocams to watch the cops; some (potentially lethal?) actions are done with police from other agencies (Arcata PD, CHP), maybe they're getting feedback. The EPD had a track record of 1 fatality about every 4 years, if they go 2 years without another, we should include that, and the possible causes.
Coexist 07:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)Coexist
[edit] Be Bold, say something good
If you have something good to say about Eureka and can cite your sources, please add it. I think the negative history that meets wikipedia NPOV guidelines should remain. I agree that some of the words used in the article did not meet NPOV guidelines. However, sugar-coating or deleting verified history doesn't make sense. Yes, there is more to Eureka than racism and genocide. There are a lot of print articles about the art and music communities in Eureka, for example. Vampyrecat 21:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I said that if I saw anything good come of the current problems I would. Look at "responding to the crisis". I'm very excited about the mayor's recruiting community members to assist in solving these problems. In the past, Eureka has been a jumble of "toughlove" programs that drive rebels who would have bumper stickers that say "US out of Humboldt County" INTO the loonie bin, and "clean and sober" houses that are anything but, and create something new. Virginia is an incredible consensus builder who welcomes even the angriest members of any political persuasion to help if their interests is truely in the comunnity. The honesty, caring and concern she has elicited from both sides of the spectrum may create miracles. Coexist 05:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)coexist
[edit] Moved Be Bold comment
The previous comment was placed at the top of this talk page. New comments are placed at the bottom of a talk page. Will research how to create an archive for this page. I suggest editors move on from these issues and work toward creating a page worthy of featured article status.--al95521 20:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry and thanks for moving it, archiving, etc. Vampyrecat 22:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] A Transportation Section?
Isn't that usually dealt with quite well by using maps, and today GPS? Seems like that just lentghens the article without adding anything that a wikipedia reader would find useful. Keeping the article consise is something we all should strive for.
Coexist 07:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)coexist
- I think that all the information is helpful in a textural format. Thanks you for not removing the info. When I visit other sites, I want to know the things I added to the Eureka page. I could work on sourcing the information if that would help. I think the best thing to do is have a really good table of contents so that users can jump to what they want to read.--al95521 08:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Media
You did a nice job of making the content more consise just like you wanted. Although, just like my comment above, less is not more in my opinion. I thougt the date information was on topic. You could add that in again if you had any second thoughts. My aim is to have a feature article quality page. If we get too much info on one subject we can always spin off to a new page.--al95521 08:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)149.136.25.254 00:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)--
I took out the piece about the humboldt sentinel because it is pretty much non exsistant.
[edit] Weather
Went to Weather.com and could not substantiate the 17 degree low. 20 degrees (f) is still the low.--al95521 06:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
