Talk:Albus Dumbledore

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Archives
June 2003 – January 2006 March 2006 – August 2006

Contents 1 Headmaster 2 Speculation 3 Death 4 How does Dumbledore live so long? 5 Image 6 Aberforth is a bartender? 7 Past tense in intro 8 Picture 9 Prophecy versions

[edit] Headmaster

The article should show Umbridge was headmistress as well as dark arts teacher at the bottom, succeded by Umbridge, succeded umbridge. She was the headmistress regardless of whether she was let into the heads office. Her appointment was at no point challenged by the board of governers and she held teh post for a non trivial time. Just as coup leaders or despots would be reflected in such terms your dislike of the character shouldnt prevent listing as such.

[edit] Speculation

The name Wulfric meaning "wolf-power", is reminiscent of the legendary hero Beowulf ("powerful bear-wolf"), who in his early years slew the monster Grendel (a name oddly reminiscent of Grindelwald, a Dark Wizard whom Dumbledore defeated). Beowulf later became king, but in his old age had to overcome another monster, a dragon, which he only did with the help of one loyal young warrior called Wiglaf, last of his family. Beowulf died from his wounds during the battle.[1]

Doesn't this remind you all of HPHBP?

Thats nice. I wish we could do away with all these "His name comes from..." or "The name _____ derives from..." with some made up nonsense that constitutes simple speculation and original research, in violation of WP:NOR and WP:V. Rowling made up the character names out of thin air, some with her own agenda, and unless she states somewhere that she got the name "Wulferic" from "Beowulf" or whatever, then it is absolutely non-encyclopedic and should be stricken. --T-dot 15:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of thin air? Wasn't the name Harry Potter taken from a neighbourhood boy she knew? Michaelsanders 22:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If she states so, then yes. If not, then no. The Wikipedia is only interested in verifiable facts WP:V from reliable sources WP:RS, not speculation, original research WP:NOR, or weasel wording WP:AWW - even if it is "true". --T-dot 00:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: her childhood best friend was named Ian Potter, and 'Harry' was her original ideal name for a son; also there is this quote (from [[1]], under Harry James Potter: "It was a day like any other and Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Brainsample were a perfectly ordinary couple, leading perfectly ordinary lives--the sort of people to whom nothing extraordinary ever happened, and not the kind of people to be the center of one the most astounding incidents in the history of mankind...so let's forget about them and follow instead the destiny of this man (camera pans to businessman in bowler hat and pinstripe suit)...Harold Potter, gardener and tax official, first victim of Creatures from Another Planet,"--Narrator, MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS Michaelsanders 20:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Another monty python reference to go with brian then (which only seems famous for the python film)?

Like Cockroach Clusters (confirmed by JKR) Valley2city 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

As to name derivations, have you looked at some of the pages where names traditional meanings are explained and how aptly they fit the characters? I doubt even one of them was chosen randomly. For example, do you feel that Remus Lupin's name is entirely a coincidence with the other famous Remus who founded Rome, suckled by Wolves? Traditional meanings of names are not original research, they are traditionl meanings. The evidence we have is that all JKR's names have meaning. Sandpiper 03:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Oxford Minidictionary of First Names: "Brian. M. Celtic... from an element meaning 'hill', 'eminence' {the latter seems appropriate to Dumbledore} ... common in East Anglia [in Middle Ages] {isn't East Anglia where the 'fens' are?}... and in North-West England, to which it was introduced by Scandinavians from Ireland, where it has been perennially popular, largely on account of the fame of Brian Boru (Gaelic Brian Boroimhe), a tenth century High King of Ireland." The name thus gives Dumbledore strong celtic connections (backing up Percival) and Scandinavian connections (backing up Wulfric); the High-King reference could also apply to Dumbledore. Percival could also be important: he was in original stories the perfect pure knight who alone could win the Grail, before in later stories this role was assigned to Galahad (the bowl or cup with supernatural powers is reminiscent of the Horcrux basin). The general theme of Dumbledore's name seems to be to emphasise his connection to Britain: he is identified with the Romans by Albus, with the Welsh and Normans by Perceval, with the Vikings by Wulfric, with the Irish by Brian, and - finally, the name which he is always known by - with the (Old) English by Dumbledore. Michaelsanders 23:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death

I noticed dumbledores date of birth is at the start, but not his date of death, is this for spoiler reasons? we could put in a spoiler warning at the start. Other artcles have it, such as Cedric Diggory. Raemie 14:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. We want the users and visitors to the Wikipedia, who may perhaps be thinking about reading the Harry Potter books, to be able know from the brief introductory paragraph who Dumbledore is, and his general role in the Harry Potter series. The introductory paragraph then should be free of any plot spoilers, such as the matter of his death towards the end of book 6, that could ruin the otherwise very suspenseful plot line. It is against Wikipedia Policy to spoil storyline plots without adequate warning to users, who may or may not not be up to date on their reading. Believe it or not, there are still people left in the world who have not yet read all of the books, and some of them may be exploring the Wikipedia to get some general information on the books and characters before investing in the time (and money) embarking on the monumental task of catching up with others who have read the books through several times. Other people have not read the books at all, and perhaps have only seen the movies. These folks may not learn of Dumbledore's fate until November 2008, when the sixth movie is scheduled to come out.

As for Cedric Diggory - it is my personal view that his death date should also not be posted in the introductory paragraph, and that it should be mentioned after the spoiler. However I believe the majority of the other editors in the Harry Potter Project seem to lean towards allowing it. This is primarily because the fourth book, where Cedric is killed, was published over six years ago (8 July 2000), and the movie version was released more than 9 months ago (18 Nov. 2005), and the home DVD version was released nearly 6 months ago (7 March 2006). In addition, while Cedric's sudden death was particularly jolting, his overall role in the series is relatively minor. His first appearance was in the third book - and it was more of a cameo appearance as the Hufflepuff House Quidditch Team Seeker, who "defeated" Harry and his Gryffindor team while Harry was being attacked by the Dementors. The producers of the movie version never even credited his actor's appearance, in the broom-flying scene during the thunderstorm, where we almost but not quite make out his face. In the fourth book, Cedric suddenly becomes a key character, not only as Harry's rival, both for the affections of Cho Chang, and as a Triwizard Tournament School Champion, but also as a new friend. Nevertheless, he is "killed off" before the end of the book. In comparison, Dumbledore is an extremely important and major ongoing character, with key roles from the first chapter of the first book, to the last chapter of the sixth, and his character is very endearing to readers and movie-watchers. Since Dumbledore is arguably "much more important" than Cedric in the series, then it is much more important to protect his introductory paragraph from unexpected spoilers. Do you really want to ruin the story of Harry and Dumbledore for all the young readers who are still catching up with you?

Frankly I would rather we not post any "Harry Potter Universe" dates - birthdates, deathdates, school term dates, first dates with Ginny, etc. as if they were somehow "real" and relevant - since they are fictional and have no relationship to the real world of years and dates. Besides, Rowling's fictional dates are full of impossibilities and inconsistencies, but nevertheless we have them worked out such as they are. The HP Project consensus has been to post the assumed dates anyway, in spite of problems. Frankly, many of the younger folks and HP fans like to compare their life timelines with those described in the Harry Potter universe - taking great satisfaction and delight from sharing such things as birthdays with Draco Malfoy for example. To remove birthdates like that would cause a riot, so in the interest of peace - we keep them in. Maybe when all these kids grow up, then the relevence of the dates will evaporate. Does anyone know the birthday of Holden Caulfield - the sixteen year old depressed protagonist from The Catcher in the Rye? I didn't see it mentioned in either article in the Wikipedia. Now while Harry's July 31st birthday is important to the storyline, the year of his birth is certainly not, and neither is the birthday of any of the other characters, save perhaps Neville Longbottom's. --T-dot 23:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I see what you are saying, and it would perhaps be ill-advised to begin the article with a spoiler-alert, but isn't this quite unusual to omit from the beginning of a biographical article (even though he's fictional... hope I didn't offend anyone with that statement), and shouldn't it say 1840s-June 1996? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Valley2city (talk • contribs) 23:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] How does Dumbledore live so long?

How does Albus Dumbledore live so long?

JK has stated that wizards tend to live longer lifes than muggles. Several of the OWL examiners are older than Dumbledore.

Wizards do live longer than Muggles, but it's not sure how much longer. As we can see on the Black Family Tree, the Blacks don't life long for wizards, so there could be a (big) difference between wizards. And we shouldn't forget Dumbledore is a very, very, véry powerfull wizard, so the reason why he lives longer could be because he has very good magic abilities.

[edit] Image

What happened to the picture? It's really dark and not the greatest pose of Dumbledore. I'm still on vacation, and will be back later, but can we find the old one? --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 16:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure though the other one didn't do much for me. It was only of his head; there should be one of his whole body. I don't want the other back; I'll look for another one. Carmelapple

I reverted your image change - you inadvertently duplicated the same image that is used just a short way further down the page. You can find the old original image (maybe) by checking older versions of the article in the history tab, unless it has been deleted. --T-dot 17:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind - I found it myself and re-posted it. It was last available on the Aug 5th edition of the article. --T-dot 17:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't like that image and I am determined to find another one even revert to the one we had it at before Fbv65edel posted this comment. This picture does not show Dumbledore. We need a picture that's show's his body; not only his head. Carmelapple 13:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats fine, and I am sorry that you "don't like" one of the images - just keep in mind that we work by consensus here, and we don't always get what we want. This is a cooperative effort, and there are dozens of other editors who might happen to like that image, and they all get a vote! In any case, I agree a clear full length image would be good - to show Dumbledore's style of dress - his robes etc. We need at least one close-up portrait showing the difference in the two actors (Richard Harris and Michael Gambon), and perhaps a full length of each showing their style of dress. Perhaps one other image of Dumbledore "doing something" would be good as well, as long as it is significantly different from the others. Just keep in mind that we are limited in the use of "fair use" images - we are to use as few as possible to illustrate the article ... we are not to load the article up with images "stolen" from other web sites and DVD screen shots. see WP:FU --T-dot 15:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If everyone wants a vote that's fine, but I think that the image in the top right hand corner should be of Dumbledore; not just his head. Carmelapple 17:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am going to bring this up again. This picture of Dumbledore needs to replaced. We need a picture of his body, not his head to be in the picture. Last time Carmelapple said he didn't like the picture. I like the picture, but we need a picture of the his whole body. Could anyone find one? ForestH2 t/h/c 17:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

How about this one - same source as the current "Penseive" shot - http://www.harrypotterfanzone.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=23&pos=162 --T-dot 17:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's good. What do you think? ForestH2 t/h/c 17:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm good with it. It is a promotional still - not technically a screen shot or a movie poster - so I think we have to use the "promotional" or some other appropriate fair use criteria - and make sure it is correctly sourced and explained. It seems most of the HP images I see are unsourced - and incorrectly explained and categorized under fair use as "screen shots" when they are in fact studio posed stills, or promotional stage-set stills used for setting up scenes and angles. --T-dot 18:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you upload it? ForestH2 t/h/c 19:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see "promotional" the only licensing that seems to fit is "screenshot". Phnx2ashes 22:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The Upload file (images) template page only provides a sample of Fair Use criteria tags. see the Tagging Images section for a lot more, including the general "promotional" tag which you can add to the image, along with a justification explanation. --T-dot 23:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Does the chapter art follow different guidlines than the covers? Since when are the American version's not canon? And who determines that anyway? John Reaves 14:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• There are no licensing tags for chapter art because the art is copyrighted to the artist and publisher. In fact, most of the Harry Potter chapter art images have been deleted with the exception of the young Tom Riddle pic on the Voldemort page (but thats a special case if you read it's licensing)for that very reason. Cover Art is accepted because it is also used for promotional purposes.
  
• Chapter art is not considered cannon because it is only included in the American versions of the books, and is only the interpretation of the artist, not the author. You can see previous arguments here [2].←Phŋж2Âshəs |Đ|©| 15:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aberforth is a bartender?

I don't recall any of the books mentioning that Aberforth works as bartender in the Hog's Head, anybody have any proof of this? 68.40.190.172 21:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right: there is no confirmation in canon of this. However, the barkeeper is described as looking vaguely familiar to Harry (presumably because of having seen the Order photo at Grimmauld Place - one would expect him to notice if he looked rather like Albus), and Harry also notes a smell of goats. Rowling was then asked in some sort of interview if the barkeeper was Aberforth, to which she apparently laughed and said something like, 'you're very good, what makes you say that'; the response was 'the smell of goats', to which she replied that she had very much enjoyed writing that clue. True, it isn't a cast-iron confirmation, but it is pretty firm. Michaelsanders 21:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Past tense in intro

Since we don't wish to give away spoilers in the intro, shouldn't the verbs be pesent tense?

Either way, they shift from present to past, to present again. They need to be changed in any case. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Derfy (talk • contribs).

O RLY? There's a spoiler in the intro of JFK. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 18:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Because JFK is about a real person, and not a fictional book or movie, it's not a spoiler… you can't be "spoiled" because you found out that JFK died. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 19:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Does anybody know why the picture was deleted? John Reaves 21:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Haven't a clue, but I'm going to upload another one since it appears it might possibly have been unexplained. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 23:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prophecy versions

I'm missing something, it says in the article that the versions of prophecies made by Trelawney and Dumbledore are different. Could anybody pls tell me the difference? I hope someone would tell me on my talk page. Thanks! katZ 03 01:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)