Talk:Algeria

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An event in this article is a July 5 selected anniversary

Archives Archive 1

Contents 1 Stat Error 2 Culture 3 Wilayas Number Scheme 4 Photo gallery 5 arab/berber - 2 - 84.6.198.191 6 Jedars in Archeology_of_Algeria 7 Failed GA 8 Anti-French 9 How Polisario is described 10 Literacy rate reference 11 Ethnicity & prehistory 12 Good Article review 13 please write in English! 14 GA Review 15 removed major corruption 16 more corrupted text 17 Proposed WikiProject 18 Cinema of Algeria 19 Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point 19.1 Discussion

[edit] Stat Error

Why is it under Nominal GDP the total reads 102000 billion? I believe that's a bit high... Also, opening sentence for the education section needs to be reworded, it's vague to the extent of having no meaning. ("Education in Algeria is reasonable.")

[edit] Culture

This message to Khoikhoi: Nobody can't deny that french culture has had a strong influence on Algeria and that algerian civilisation had an influence on french way of life, precisely through music and painting of people like Delacroix, Chassériau or the Abd-el-Tif prize winners. So, why does Khoikhoi always erases this evidence?

Ask User:Mustafaa. --Khoikhoi 01:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to enter the debate on this, but the suggested (repeatedly inserted & reverted) phrasing on Delacroix seems to suggest he was an Algerian painter. Whatever you decide on, that should be reworded. Arre 22:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Answer to Khoikhoi (9 january 2006):

Eugène Delacroix is one of the most famous painter artists in the world. His name is tipically french. Only completely uncultured people could be suggested that Delacroix is an arabic name. In the time of the hardest french expansionism, when officialy, the french governements sent the desoccupied lumpenproletariat and the delinquents to the colonies, the pictures of the orientalist painters were the main way to point out to the European opinion, and chiefly to the french "bourgeoisie", that Algerians were civilized people and not Barbarians and pirats who had to be conquested and slaughtered. However, I took your advice in consideration and corrected my text to prevent you to erase it again. K/hotonnec

I am not Khoikhoi, I'm not erasing your text. But I agree with Mustafaa below. Arre 12:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Exactly - he's French. This is supposed to discuss the brief highlights of Algerian culture, not of French culture. Delacroix may well merit a brief mention in the France article, but he is no more relevant to an article on Algeria than Mark Twain would be to an article on Morocco, or Bruce Chatwin to an article on Argentina. The Abd-el-Tif prize, even if its winners had included any Algerians, would still stand as a ridiculously obscure piece of info which certainly doesn't belong in a single paragraph summary of Algerian painting. - Mustafaa 19:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I must recall you that many Algerians or French of Algerian origin consider the separation between the two country, in part made by America, as the main reason of actual misery in both. The mutual influence on each other remains and orientalists are still a part of algerian culture. K/hotonnec

French culture is no doubt very important to Algeria, but Delacroix is still not part of a specific Algerian culture, which is what the section talks about. I do think we should mention culturally significant people within the French settler community, such as Camus, if we are not already doing that. (But I do not think that "many Algerians" want France back. The system of rule-by-holocaust is arguably efficient, but not necessarily remembered kindly by its victims.) Arre 03:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

French language is rare in Algeria??? who wrote this?

[edit] Wilayas Number Scheme

Anyone else notice that the order of the wilayas is screwed up? I know the list is alphabetical, but I think it should reflect the actual wilaya numbers.--Amro B.B. 11:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Problem is the map. Does anybody want to redo the map? Or shall we just remove it?

Corrected- I think the official numbering scheme should be used, because it is quite prominent in Algeria's politics and administration as well as algerians daily life. --Djihed 14:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo gallery

I like the gallery, BUT I think it's way too Algiers-centric - 7 out of 8 pictures are from the capital! I propose some changes... - Mustafaa 22:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe get some from Category:Images of Algeria? - Mustafaa 22:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really a fan of picture galleries in articles. This article already has enough images - I say we remove it. --Khoikhoi 00:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] arab/berber - 2 - 84.6.198.191

Listen to me, we are: 30 millions inhabitants in algeria, 20-30% are berbers, but us we are arabics!ask algerians and you will see, so please respect our identity and don't publish wrong informations we respect you (kabyls chawis, taouregs.....)but us we are not berbers !

We unterstand nothing when berbers talk to us, so they use arabic language, but a small part of them are racists against us mainly Anonymous user 84.6.198.191, please realize you have no support whatsoever for that edit (see talk page above). It will keep getting reverted. You have already broken the three revert-rule, and I will too if I continue this, so I'll just leave it until later. But if you want your point to stick on the page, you'll have to argue for it here on the talk page. Last time you did, you gained no support. Try again if you want; I'm certainly open for changes in the present wording, but not what you're suggesting. Arre 20:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

My name is Abdou (Arabic name) so i am no longer Anonymous now.wikipedia people don't represent the Algerians, (luckyly) so i don't need their support,i just write what i have read in the American goverment website,you want the Algerians to be ARAB/BERBER while many Berbers consider Arabs as scum and many Arabs consider Berbers as scum as well.LUCKYLY,most of algerians don't think that way but still think they are ARABS not Berbers,and Berbers don't want to be called Arabs either they would never admit you tell they are ARAB-BERBER (i talk about the kabyles),so don't force them to be what they are not,esspecially if you have never been in Algeria and know nothing about my people (exept the sand of the desert...).I take it as an insult from you because you force me to be a Berber while i tell i am not,we dont care about our ethnic or racial origin,as i told the word ARAB has many meaning,it isn't necessarilly about race so we are Arabs and don't need anyone to trace back our tree...i always gave official sources and you erase my comments it is pathetic.So i propose you to leave your stupid comments in that paragraph while i will leave mine,wikipedia people will judge themselves.but i still think the people like you and the others don't respect Algerians,the Berber people in wikipedia don't represent Algerian population,they represent only 20%,so they can't talk for us,this type of people wish we were Arabised Berbers because it would serve their agenda but as i told earlier,even if Arab Algerians knew they were Berbers,they would still be Arab because we are proud of our heritage and have nothing to do with Berber culture,if i admit i have Berber ancestors so i would admit i have French ancestors,Scandinavian ancestors,Turkish,ROMANs etc etc,i am Arab and i don't care about what are my ancestors.I m sorry to tell it but unlike what many people tell Berbers are not more discriminated against than Arabs,Arabs were mistrated as well and the terrorists attack happened in ARABS AREA,the most of beheaded people IN THE 90'S were beheaded were Arabs,not Berbers...and we all know many policemena dn soldiers participated in these beheading (100 000 death),so i don't see why some Berbers tell "BERBERS are mistreated",they should tell "Algerians" are mistrated,it is more correct and it is the truth,not personal feelings,wikipedia must tell the truth not personal feelings or solidarity feelings from westerners to Berbers.

i understand that you feel strongly about this, abdou, but you'll have to understand how wikipedia works. your edits will be deleted unless you manage to convince other editors that they are correct and should stay on the page. you haven't convinced me, and it appears you haven't convinced anyone else either. it's not a matter of telling you or anyone else who you are (or what you are) but of how i and others think the issue of ethnicity in algeria is best described, in a factual and non-biased way. no hard feelings, but i will continue to do this, and i know others will too, if you don't present your claims on the talk page, instead of reinserting a refuted version over and over again. i suggest you write them down one-by-one, with a source for what could be controversial. Arre 02:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

i just posted 4 links,isn't that enough?plus i recall you you deleted the paragraph over and over again as well,instead to write your text leaving mine,i suggest you to do that.Also i have added a text about the genocide commited by the French in Algeria,then when you delete the paragraph about DEMOGRAPHICS,dont delete the history paragraph.U r not going to tell me how wikipedia works,i already know it,as i told this page is edited by BERBERS or westerners who have simpathy for them,it is not objectiv and i myst tell the truth,you have the same anti Arabs positions about western sahara,you are not a crusader against Arabs and whatever you think or do we won't be Berber,we are the majority,they are the minority,you must deal with it ;)

fine, i've had enough of arguing with you. i will not let you stamp your anti-berber racism, general conspiratorial paranoia and awful grammar onto this page. if you want to keep editing despite getting constantly reverted, that's your business. Arre 03:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

you mean your anti arab racism...now i am anti berber?just because i don't want to be a Berber?Great,how can i be racist against them since you told i was of berber descent?Your berberophilia must not appears in wikipedia,go learn what is neutral point of view...i think you should keep wrtting about sweden and norway instead to talk about what u don't know...

You don't get it. I agree that Algerian Arabic-speakers are Arab (including myself), even though they're mostly descended from Berbers; Arabness is defined primarily by language, not ancestry. The current text ("Most Algerians are Arab by language and identity, and of mixed Berber-Arab ancestry") is entirely consistent with that. So what exactly are you objecting to? - Mustafaa 18:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are (or ought to be) made of facts, not POVs. In this matter, the facts are : 1. Most Algerians are of Amazigh (Berber) ancestry. 2. Most Algerians are arabs by language and culture. Denying these facts is either ignoring the reality of Algeria or merely a sign of unresolved identity issues. Thus, any POV which questions the arabness of Algeria or its Amazigh ancestry should be pointed out as biased. Finally, I would like to ask the same question as Mustafaa : What exactly bothers you in the current article? --Smiley77 17:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Algerians are mostly of Berber origin and this is a fact that should be pretty well known by now. Even the current president of Algeria Abdelaziz Bouteflika, who dealt harshly with the Berber Kabyle uprising in 2001 has admitted in his speeches with the following words "We are Berbers who have been Arabised by Islam" (nahnou amazigh arabana el islam). If being an Arab means being a member of a vast nation (the Arab nation) composed of many peoples (among which the Berbers), sharing a language, traditions and culture and being solidary of one another then we can say that Algerians are Arabs mostly. Just like the American nation is composed of many peoples (Irish, Italian, African, etc.). But if being Arab means claiming that our ancestors were predominantly located in the Arabian desert in the 7th century and then took over Algeria then I am not an Arab. In other words if being an Arab means bringing something to the Arab nation, then I am happy to be an Arab and contribute this way to human civilisation like my ancestors have done for 1500 years already. On the other hand, if being an Arab means taking away from the Berbers and the Amazigh culture in general, then I am not an Arab and will never be. Only the idiot ignores his origins and bashes Berbers and their culture. Signed: an Algerian citizen living in Algeria. 82.101.153.210 00:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Since we are on this topic, let me also remnind you that you are in Africa. Aside from all of these other groups that you people mention, you have yet to mention the one group that is in your blood too! Those people are the native, truly from Africa, not invaders, commonly referred to as black Africans. I know that the French and others have convinced you that you are some non-black and non-European, but white people, that blackness is there too! Now I can say that in the north, there are some very white people there. There are also those who have a lot of white in then as far as facial features and straight hair. The hair gets blondish like many mulatto types, Ricky Martin style. This is a result of 1,000's of year of mixing.

Some people like to pass the various looks off as so-called berbers/arabs. This is race-mixing people! We can't pretend that it does not happen! There are other Algerians with so-called white facial features and nappy hair(some with blond it too!), curly hair or wavy hair. The skin tones(mulatto style), lps, hair and a lot of other features of Africa still exist today in Algeria. Of course in the south, there are clearly black Africans there. Are they also berber? Let's not play games, the peoples of North Africa are mixes between the black African and the white man. All of this berber and arab BS is just designed to take away from this FACT.--71.235.81.39 04:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jedars in Archeology_of_Algeria

Can someone please check the edit I made concerning Jedars over at Archeology_of_Algeria. I have restored something of what was discussed above, rather than leaving the previous "text to come", which looked awful. Carcharoth 12:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

The only real problem is that it lacks references. The only two listed are news articles for currents events. Everything else is unsourced. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 08:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added references for the major sections - it seems the CIA world factbook was heavily used. SeanMack 16:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-French

I thought the history section was too anti-French, and that it failed to acknowledge that most Algerians chose not become French citizens for religious reasons, and that the population boom started under the French colonial rule, due to the introduction of modern medicines.

[edit] How Polisario is described

The text in the histori section reads: "Algeria's support for the Polisario, an armed group of Sah(a)rawi refugees seeking independence for the Moroccan-ruled Western Sahara"

In my limited knowledge about the Polisario, it is not just an armed group, true it has a small regular army with some old algerian tanks, but it also organizes education, medical coverage and essentially takes the role of a government body for the 300.000+ Saharawi refugees in Algeria.

Though the Sahara has never been a country, as when spain left in 1975, it was immediately occupied by Moroccan Forces. In that sense the saharawis view the situation as an occupation by Morocco, and hence they dont want independence, but for the Moroccan army to leave their homeland.

I acknowledge that history is written by the victors and there is very little chance that the Saharawis will see justice i.e. the right to self determination through a referendum, which has been consistently blocked at the UN by Morocco and its main ally the US. In fact, having the referendum is Polisario's oficial position for quite a few years and though they have weapons, they are not an active armed / terrorist group.

As a compromise, how about this wording: "Algeria's support for Polisario, the organisation of saharawi refugees exhiled in Algeria since the occupation of Western Sahara by Morocco."

Please comment as I do not want to edit unilaterally~.Cgonzalezdelhoyo 22:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC) I will appreciate any comments before editing

[edit] Literacy rate reference

The article says "literacy plummeted" and gives a reference. The "reference", first of all, comes from an unknown website; then, it does give a figure of 40% literacy before colonization, but no figure of literacy after colonization. At a minimum, the reference is incomplete.

It would help to be able to check that fact exactly. "Plummeted" is a strong term implying a strong decrease in literacy. It's strong enough of a statement to warrant a better reference.

Bdb 23:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The 40% figure derives from the Library of Congress Country Study of Algeria. Literacy at Independence in 1962 was less than 10% (ditto). - Mustafaa 21:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I know this is a bith of topic,but does anyone know an english page,where i can find listings of show of Cannal Algerie?There was an anime i watched,whose name id like to know. David

[edit] Ethnicity & prehistory

A small item perhaps, but it jumped out at me: Is it accurate to make a statement that a people as we know them today or even in ancient history inhabited an area "since at least 10,000 BC"? There is no argument I think (without having waded through the discussions above) that the Berber peoples can be considered indigenous to the Maghreb region as well as much of the Sahara. But who knows how population movements and, more importantly to this point, development of identities evolved in the several millenia of drying of the Sahara and so on? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like: "Algeria has been inhabited by the ancestors of Berbers (or Imazighen) since at least 10,000 BC"? Just a suggestion (is there an anthropologist in the house?).--A12n 17:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article review

A Good Article review has opened on this article that I think might need some editors here to comment on, as somebody claims certain parts of the article have been poorly translated using translation software, but not being familiar with the article myself, I don't know which ones :/. Could some editors shed some light on the situation? Homestarmy 18:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] please write in English!

The bad writing on this page is a disaster and a disgrace. We cannot ask our students to consult this page if you cannot be bothered to write it in correct English. The section from Ottoman to postcolonial rule in the History section is the worst offender -- a disastrous jumble of nonsensical fragments. If English is not your mother tongue, or you have not bothered to learn correctly how to write it (or consult a competent translator), please refrain from posting on this site. There is French Wikipedia or Arabic Wikipedia or German Wikipedia, or any number of other choices. This is not your private playground for incoherent political ranting in incompetent pseudo-English. Thank you.

[edit] GA Review

The Good Article review on this article has ended, and a consensus of four editors have given support for delisting this article. Primarily, as the person who wrote the rather attack-ridden section above points out, the translation problems appear to be affecting the prose something awful, but since nobody responded to me 10 days ago, I guess nobody much patrols this article :/. This all needs to be converted into proper English before it can be a GA. Dispute archived here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 9. Homestarmy 03:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed major corruption

Someone whose English is extremely bad majorly corrupted the history section discussing the French conquest. It looks bad enough to be a machine translation, actually. I put the old text from November 6 or so back in. Removed text follows:

Benwing 03:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

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Algeria was brought into the Ottoman Empire by Khair ad-Din and his brother Aruj, who established Algeria's modern boundaries in the north and made its coast a base for the corsairs; their privateering peaked in Algiers in the 1600s. Piracy on American vessels in the Mediterranean resulted in the First and Second Barbary War with the United States. Those piracy acts were the occasion of a slave trade, reducing people captured on the boats to slavery or attacking coastal villages in southern Europe, At the same time Europe also devoted itself it to piracy. But in the XIX century there was no corsairs. On the pretext of a slight to their consul, the French invaded Algiers in 1830, Algerians were exterminated as explained by Olivier Le Cour Grandmaison.

Contrary to Morocco and Tunisia, the conquest of Algeria was long and particularly violent since it resulted in the disappearance of about a third of the Algerian population. ^[1].

The French Army subjected village after village, whereas it was enough to sign some agreements to impose a protectorate on Morocco and for Tunisia but it should be specified that what characterizes the colonization of Algeria and holds place of characteristic is that it acts of a colony of settlement.

In 1794, when France was attacked on all sides, that its territory was invaded on several faces and that its people and his army were likely to be famished, the dey of Algiers Hussein offered to Convention all facilitated to make its purchases of corn since it did not find what nowhere to nourish its soldiers. Under the directory, since the war does not continue any less and that the treasure is empty, the dey of Algiers authorizes a loan of a million without interêts to France. The finished war, France does not honour its debt, any the modes which follow one another do not pay in Algeria the sums due and the dey is thus in cold with the French Consul, understanding that it will recover neither the payment of the deliveries having however been so profitable for the fight of the borrower against the European powers which had been united against the Revolution nor the lent money.

In 1827, the dey of Algiers still discovers a fact much more serious, at the end is Regency in Calle, France had the concession of a commercial warehouse. The French government, by the voice of its Deval representative, had promised to the dey that the warehouse would not be strengthened - it was a site to make trade, but anything more - but France had strengthened it. Not obtaining explanations on behalf of the in writing solicited French government, April 30, 1827 the dey asked some the French Consul verbally. Being unaware of his requests openly, not condescending to answer, the consul took the thing top, then furious of such a contempt, the dey carried, insulted, and finally gave to the "representative of France" a blow of his drive out-fly. The government of the restoration and Charles X, anxious to regild the image of France abroad and to reinforce the royal authority in France, then found in this incident a pretext to intervene militarily.

However, intense resistance from such muslim personalities as Emir Abdelkader, Ahmed Bey and Fatma N'Soumer made for a slow conquest of Algeria, not technically completed until the early 1900s when the last Tuareg were conquered.

Meanwhile, however, the French made Algeria an integral part of France, a status that would end only with the collapse of the Fourth Republic. Tens of thousands of settlers from France, Italy, Spain, and Malta moved in to farm the Algerian coastal plain and occupy the most prized parts of Algeria's cities, benefiting from the French government's confiscation of communally held land, and the application of modern agriculture techniques that increased the amount of arable land. People of European descent in Algeria settlers (or natives like Spanish people in Oran), as well as the native Algerian Jews (typically Sephardic in origin), became full French citizens starting from the end of the 19th century (the so-called Pieds-Noirs after the independence); by contrast, the vast majority of Muslim Algerians (even veterans of the French army) received neither French citizenship nor the right to vote. Algeria's social fabric was stretched to breaking point during this period: literacy plummeted[1], while land confiscation uprooted much of the population. However, the population increased steadily[2].

Before the putsch of December 2, 1851 in France, even though the extension of colonisation was made difficult due to the maintain of intagibillity of individual property and banning transactions over tribe's territory, 131 000 Europeans including 66 000 French were installed in Algeria. This name replaces the old name "Possessions françaises dans le Nord de l'Afrique" not because of an official act, like a decree or an ordonance. Indeed, a letter from General SCHNEIDER, Ministre of War, dated from October 14, 1839 to Marechal VALEE General Governor states that the name Algérie (Algeria) shorter and most sgnificant, must be used in all acts and certificates issued by military and civil authorities.

[edit] more corrupted text

Someone put back one of the above deleted paragraphs. I removed it again because it still makes little sense; it's included below. The first sentence seems like reasonable info, but I don't know how it fits into the rest of the text (it's out of chronological sequence), while the rest is gibberish or of questionable relevance. Benwing 23:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

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Before the putsch of 2 December, 1851 in France, 131,000 Europeans (including 66,000 French) were installed in Algeria. This was despite that fact that the extension of colonisation was made difficult due to the maintaince of intagibillity of individual property and the banning of transactions over tribal territory. This name replaces the old name "Possessions françaises dans le Nord de l'Afrique" not because of an official act, like a decree or an ordonance. Indeed, a letter from General Schneider, Minister of War, dated from 14 October, 1839 to Marechal Valee (Governor-General), states that the shorter and more significant name Algérie (Algeria) must be used in all acts and certificates issued by military and civil authorities.

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[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Algeria at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Algeria. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cinema of Algeria

Hi, Project Films is expanding the World Cinema series. It's a good opportunity to start Cinema of Algeria soon. Please, see as layout example Cinema of Egypt. Thanks. Hoverfish|Talk 09:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point