Talk:Belfries of Belgium and France

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[edit] Belfries or Bell towers

The claim 'in recognition of an architectural phenomenon' might be wrong or at least incomplete: I get the impression that UNESCO used the word 'Belfry' here (as Wikipedia did also till a while ago) as if it were a mere synonym for 'Bell tower'. Note for instance the presence on this sublist 'Belfries of Belgium and France' of the Cathedral of Antwerp and (in fact the Tower of) the Cathedral of Mechelen: these are absolutely no belfries (the Belfry, just 150 metres away from the Tower in Mechelen is also World Heritage on this same sublist) but their carillons (unique in the world: 2 complete carillons in the St. Rumbolds Tower) are famous. Besides belfries or buildings that may contain one, the list shows also: Cathedral of Our Lady [Notre-Dame], Antwerp (ID 943-002); City Hall [perhaps a belfry?], Antwerp (ID 943-003); Previous City & 'Laken'(Cloth) Hall [perhaps a belfry?], Herentals (ID 943-009); St. Rumbolds Tower, Mechelen (ID 943-014); St. Leonard Church, Zoutleeuw (ID 943-026) - all in Flanders, Belgium.

Someone should try and find out what motivation UNESCO had for putting items on this particular sublist ref. ID 943. It may not have been 'architecture' because other great cathedrals are not on the (or rather, on this sub-)list. I think they have only one thing in common: I assume these are all bell towers. -- SomeHuman 2006-06-19 21:43

Why are some church towers included? Well, it appears that in certain towns in and around the Duchy of Brabant, the role of secular belfry was taken over by the main church.(1) In such cases, the church bell tower was also used as a city tower, watch tower, and sometimes stored the civil charters.(2a ^general),(2b ^{in particular}). According to UNESCO, "Church belfries, in regions such as historic Brabant, also bear witness to the relations between the civil and religious powers within the community."(3) This double role (civil and religious) could explain why the major churches in Leuven, Zoutleeuw, Tienen, etc., were included on the belfries list.

For example, the Antwerp cathedral's tower, with its alarm bell "Orida"(4), at one time served as the city belfry.(5)

Another site discusses the "church belfries" in certain cities: "These church towers were also frequently used as a city and/or watch tower with a bell or carillon. This is true, among others, for the Gothic towers of the cathedral in Antwerp (early 15th-16th century) and that in Mechelen (mid 15th-early16th century)."(6 =2b).

I agree that the words 'in recognition of an architectural phenomenon' in the current Wikipedia article are probably inadequate; if you can improve that, please do. The detailed UNESCO document is here:

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/943bis.pdf

--Opie 06:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

You must be quite right, as a Mechlinian I knew the St. Rumbolds Tower too close to the belfry (now part of the city hall) for an alarm bell functionality; but indeed I had once read about the Tower's use as a watchtower to timely spot a fire. The .pdf is precisely what I had been looking for. – Great help, thanks Opie. -- SomeHuman 2006-06-20 17:14 (UTC)

[edit] Antwerp townhall

It appears to me that every item on the list contains a belfry (or a tower that had belfry-like functionality) except for the Antwerp townhall. I am quite sure that the Antwerp townhall has no bells. It has not even a real tower, but only a projection above the center. Does anyone know why this building is listed?Vrench Vries 17:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Straight quote from the last reference by Opie: "The Hôtel de Ville in Antwerpen (1564) is an excellent example of the transposition of Renaissance principles in the central risalith with superposed diminishing registers flanked by obelisks and scrollwork and finished with a pediment, reiterating the theme of the central belfry." SomeHuman 2006-06-09 22:32 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Vrench Vries 18:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Why the cumbersome anglicization of Church names. It makes identification and search more difficult. I propose using the Flemish name for buildings in the Flemish Region (possibly with the French name in brackets). As for the names in French-speaking areas, it would be best to use the French name and (where such exists the Flemish name in brackets). Augusta2 00:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)