Talk:Bicycle frame

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Cycling Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Cycling. WikiProject Cycling is an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to cycling on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

Contents 1 Image added to frame size section 2 Minor edit of Aluminum section 3 Merged in material from bicycle frame construction 4 Triangle vs. trapezoid 5 frames vs. geometries? 6 from seat stay 7 Frame geometry specification 8 Focus on racing bicycles 9 Brazing v. Welding 10 Carbon fiber as "primary" non-metalic material

[edit] Image added to frame size section

I added the diagram of common bicycle measurements because these are terms that abound bikeswaps and ebay's bikes for sale, etc. I hope that this is not seen as redundant as the other diagram addresses actual parts and this one addresses accurate measurements. --Circlemaker 06:16, 04 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor edit of Aluminum section

I added the bit about alloying extends the fatigue life to many years. The original text made it sound like aluminum frames will just break on you. While this may happen, it usually takes quite a few years of intense riding. I still see Cannondale CAAD 3 frames on the road. Comatose51 02:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Should bicycle frame construction be merged into this? --Christopherlin 02:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Merged in material from bicycle frame construction

Whew. That took a while.

Could anybody add in material about geometries (road vs. comfort vs. hybrid vs. mountain) or any historical information? --Christopherlin 06:24, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Triangle vs. trapezoid

195.179.206.165 notes that the front/main "triangle" is technically not one, as the top and down tubes don't intersect. However, most references I've seen call it the triangle nonetheless. Thoughts? --Christopherlin 03:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Triangle. --Kit transue 21:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Triangle as well, if one is to go on what The UCI has to say, in rule 1.3.020, "the frame of the bicycle shall be of a traditional pattern, i.e. built around a main triangle." even though their later definition of the main triangle clearly leaves room from forming of a trapezoid. see http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Rules/1gene-E.pdf --Chinakow 05:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] frames vs. geometries?

Suggest the geometry discussion be moved more to the cycle types category, and it be made more clear that the various frame components talked about here (or scheduled to be moved into this article) are based on the tubing-constructed safety bicycle.

I guess it seems that the article presumes the only frame is a safety frame, despite efforts to make it more inclusive. --Kit transue 20:05, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm all for being more inclusive. Feel free to add mentions of less common frame types. The safety bicycle is the predominant one today, of course, so it does get the most mention.

I noticed that you made an article for Mixtie, which is but briefly covered in the main article here. The main article size isn't too big right now. I think that things about geometry should stay here. Duplication/expansion within each cycle type article would be good.

The reason I put merge notices on the various tubes is because of the short length of those articles, with little room for expansion as individual articles. Going to clarify the focus of the article, similar to the end of the first paragraph of mountain biking in a sec. --Christopherlin 21:23, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The tube argument makes lots of sense. Still in favor of putting detailed descriptions of the different frame types in the cycle types category; the mixtie is an example of why I think it's wise to have those elsewhere. The mixtie isn't described here at all--yeah, it's got a lower standover height, but it achieves it in a way that puts less stress on the seat tube than the open frame described here. I find those details interesting, but fear putting all them in would detract from the readability of this article. --Kit transue 21:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What do folks think about detailing the effects the geometry variables have on the performance/utility of the bike? Something like:

Bottom bracket height: determines clearance of pedals and center of gravity. High BB height for fixed gears and mountain bikes, lower BB for touring, road, etc.

Standover height: the distance between the top tube and ground. Lower for moutain bikes where you might need to step on uneven terrain, lower still for convenience mounting the bicycle (clothing, touring). Higher moves the frame elements further apart to make the frame stiffer.

Head tube angle: steep for livelier steering, shallow for self-centering. (surely there's something about camber somewhere.)

Wheelbase: long for touring to keep racks out of the way, move the CG forward, allow for more water bottles :-) Long to reduce pitching over uneven surfaces. Short to increase responsiveness.

Suspension: heavier multi-link for controlling bob, lighter single pivot for long travel, simplicity, and weight, none for....

and so on, covering riding position and the like.

That would lay the groundwork for better understanding the cycle types.... --Kit transue 21:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] from seat stay

A Single seat stay refers to seat stays which merge onto one section before joining the front triangle of the bicycle, thus meeting at a single point. A dual seat stay refers to seat stays which meet the front triangle of the bicycle at two separate points, usually side-by-side.

[edit] Frame geometry specification

In addition to saddle height, reach, etc., what about bottom bracket height and wheelbase? I don't know if the latter is spec'd as axle-to-axle, tire contact-to-contact, or bottom bracket-to-axle. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could fill in here if these are useful? --Kit transue 21:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Focus on racing bicycles

I have some issues with the pictures used on this article. It seems to me that judging just by the photographs, road/racing bicycles are over-represented. Maybe use more Utiliy or MTB type bike photographs more, since the former vastly outnumber racing/road bikes, anywhere in the world except perhaps in North America. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chicbicyclist (talk • contribs) .

Yeah, all the other types of bicycles and cycling are underrepresented. Perhaps you'd like to help out with what you know. --Christopherlin 02:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazing v. Welding

They are two different processes. This should be corrected in the article. Unfortunately, I do not feel that my writing skills and knowledge of the processes of brazing and welding are enough to do the rewrite justice.

[edit] Carbon fiber as "primary" non-metalic material

While I was unable to find a source that explicitely lists carbon fiber as the primary non-metallic material, I have listed three sources, including a page from the highly-regarded and often cited Sheldon Brown's web site, that compare frame materials. All three include carbon fiber as the only non-metallic material in their discussions. Another way to look it this would be to list all the major manufacturers that offer carbon fiber frames (Trek, Specialized, Giant, Orbea, Felt, Raleigh, Scwhinn, Look, Seven, even aluminum frame pioneer Cannondale) vs all the major manufacturers that offer frames of any other non-metallic material. If there are any sources that indicate that any other non-metallic material is commonly used, or even currently in production (other than beautifully hand-crafted wood and bamboo), I would love to see it. -AndrewDressel 14:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Andrew, I have taken a look at the most recent references you added to the article bicycle. The are excellent references for much of the material. Unfortunatelly, I coudn't find, out of the 3 links, anything that mentions "carbon fiber" is the most popular non-metalic frame. Of course it is an "increasingly popular frame material"[1]. I will change the word "primary" to "popular." Perhaps, you could also place your references at various appropriate locations throughout the paragraph since having them all at the begining doesn't seem as relevant. Thank you! --CyclePat 17:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Copied from User talk:AndrewDressel

Seems silly, but okay. There isn't a source verifying that the frame is the main component of a bicycle. There isn't a source confirming that the most common frame design is based on the safety bicycle. There isn't a source specifying that the rear brake cable is most commonly routed along mounts on the top tube. There isn't a source corroborating the claim that a more economical method of bicycle frame construction uses cylindrical steel tubing connected by TIG welding. Why you let these slide while questioning the preponderance of evidence supporting the claim that carbon fiber is the primary and most commonly used non-metallic frame material is beyond my understanding. Does this somehow strike you as original research? Do you have support for a counter claim? -AndrewDressel 17:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Please take note that there is strict policy regarding inclusion of material. Wikipedia articles must be based on reliable sources. Instead of trying to find counter exemples to this rule you may wish to try improve the sections of the article which you highlighted as lacking proper citations. --CyclePat 06:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Copied from User talk:AndrewDressel

If there is some question about the reliability of the sources I cite, please tell me what it is. I believe there is no point in looking for citations for the examples I highlighted because the points are widely agreed upon and there is not likely to be any source that bothers confirming them. That is why I chose those examples. The same is true of the primacy of carbon fiber among non-metallic frame materials. Due to your objections, I'll leave this discussion here and let readers draw their own conclusions. -AndrewDressel 14:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)