Talk:Hades

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This page needs cleaning up, there's some childish comments in it. 71.58.53.63 22:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)yea i totally agree Hmmm, what is all this "NOTES FOR STUDENTS..."? Is this copied from somewhere, and if so, do we have permission to GFDL it? -Ato

Hades was swolled by his dad Cronus.

On another note, is the Greek Hades and Roman Pluto identical? Were they originally the same entity? If not, were they two gods who were merged for convenience? When did the romans import Hades, if that was the case? No matter the answers, I think it would be appropriate to keep a separate Pluto article... -Ato

I realize its been a long time, but Hades and Pluto are quite different. When I have more time, I'll edit wiki to show this. For now, note that Hades is another name for the underworld, which Pluto is not. There are important differences, usually, between the Greek and the Roman gods. Anyway, my vote is for separate articles, without that pesky autoredirect. Atorpen 03:13 Jan 28, 2003 (UTC)

It's odd to see this entry is registered as part of category:Christian Eschatology. Perhaps someone didn't read what the entry is about. Wetman 02:55, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hades is the term sometimes used in the Bible for Hell - the exact phrase used in the Original language. If someone is studying Christian Eschatology (the study of what happens after this world has finished) then it is good for them to have a link to this page. One Salient Oversight 11:11, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If I were teaching Christian eschatology and my student confused Hades and hell, I wonder if I'd give a passing grade? Oh well... --Wetman 22:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hades is not used in the bible for "hell" in fact hades in the bible speaks of Earth, which was commonly called hades at the time. If hades were hell then how the hell could hades be cast into hell according to revelations anyway? --LucaviX 22:11, 4 September 2004 (UTC)

Well the first seven words were right. That's not quite a passing grade. --Wetman 03:02, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the King James Version misinterprets hades as hell more often that it uses it. Matthew 16:18 reads "...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The original meaning of Ha'des is warped by the use of Hell in its place. Again at Luke 10:15 we find the King James Version in error when it reads "And thou, Caper'na-um, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell." We find the same is true at Matthew 11:23, Luke 16:23, Acts 2:31, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13-14. I also believe that the section entitled Biblical Use needs to be cleaned as some of the conotations refer to "Hell" leading me to believe the references were from the King James Version or an offshoot. If so a reference is clearly needed.--Bighairycamel 21:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, you guys are probably using different translations of the Bible. This happens pretty frequently, and can lead to problems. If your translation was translated from Hebrew or Aramaic to Greek, then the word "hades" may mean hell. Other transaltions might not have been translated through Greek, and won't contain this word, or the word was changed in later editing.--Rob

Bold text==Orpheus== "During the Rennisance period, this story was changed so that Orpheus got Eurydice back." I wonder what version is being recalled here. I didn't remove this text from the entry, but I doubt it's right. Anyone? --Wetman 22:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No response. This second-hand hearing by someone does not transmit useful information. Anyone who can identify this retelling might do better to insert it at Eurydice, where it's less peripheral. --Wetman 17:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 they  need to have who the article is by and the sponsering institution or organization!!!! it would help people alot!!

Contents 1 "Bajs?" 2 "Hades" a moon of Jupiter? 3 Lena Hades 4 buddha and hades? 5 wow im totally bored 6 Hades 7 Personality? 8 Vandal alert 9 WHY? 10 whats thhere to learn in this artical , realy,? 11 Which Neopagans were you talking about, again? 12 definition 13 Theseus and Pirithous 14 purgatory and abraham's bosom 15 CLEAN UP 16 Underworld and underworld 17 Hell? 18 Common Misconception

[edit] "Bajs?"

I removed the recently-added (User:193.215.223.5) name "Bajs" from the Roman synonyms for Hades. It also means "horseshit" somewhere or other. But not in Latin. --Wetman 09:32, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Hades" a moon of Jupiter?

" Hades was an alternate name for Sinope, a moon of Jupiter." Did it ever appear in print under this name? --Wetman 00:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lena Hades

There are some refenrences to a russian artist by the name of Lena Hades throw around the text, is this subtle vandalism or should be put in a more proper format? <<please sign your contribution>>

It appears to be linkspam of some kind. I do not know how notable Lena Hades is, and I am assuming good faith, so I have simply reformatted as disambiguation. Same for the Lena Hades content at Also sprach Zarathustra. --Macrakis 20:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] buddha and hades?

"Like his brother Buddha and other ancient gods, Hades was not the most faithful of husbands."

I dont think this is correct. Brothers of Hades where Zeus (indeed known for his infidelity) and Poseidon I don't recall either of them ever being referred to as Buddha. (sneeky vandalism? )

Peter

[edit] wow im totally bored

i love this site. its so much fun. neway w/e

24.107.98.80 03:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)carmen

[edit] Hades

this sight is totally awsome!!!! A few notes...

To the Ancient Greeks, Hades is indeed a God, period.

The definition that Hades is an abode to the dead is not truly one by the Ancient Greeks. It seems to be written as such at the beginning of this article. That definition [the abode] is a later form of the meaning of Hades and done so by the Romans and by modern definition. That is not what the Ancient Greeks called the Underworld. As stated, the Underworld was divided and given appropriate names. Listed realms of Hades aside from Hades' House that IS associated with human death; Fields of Asphodel, Elysium (Elysian Fields), Pit of the Damned / Tartarean Pit (Tartaros by Plato), and Isle of the Blessed.

Erebos/Erebus literally means darkness, not dread. Erebos is brother and consort to Nyx (night). Their offspring include Aither (light), Hemera (day), and the Protogenos Eros (desire); Eros the elder, not the same as Eros Aphrodite's son. Erebos is not really a "euphonym" of Hades. Erebos is a Protogenos God. His name has been used for sects of the Underworld but as you can see, his names means darkness.

Tartaros is not really equivelent to the Christian version of Hell as it is commonly known, no fire and brimstone. Tartaros is a Protogenos God and is known for holding the Titans and monsters in a pit; the Tartarean Pit. By Plato, Tartaros is named as the pit for the damned; the Tartarean Pit and according to Plato this is where the 'damned' go.

Persephone was not merely tricked, she was granted to Hades by her Father Zeus.

Liz

[edit] Personality?

Dark and morbid personality? The Gods did not especially like him? From where does this come? Liz

[edit] Vandal alert

There is a vandalism done under the section artistic representation which I cannot erase and do not find in the e it, please... --Francisco Valverde 13:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it Frank. Perhaps you're looking at a cached, outdated version? Could you describe the vandalism? Taco325i 22:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, you must be right. I think it was being edited at the same time. It was deleted anyway... --Francisco Valverde 05:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WHY?

I cannot understand how is it that this article, in particular, is so many times vandalised. Just now user:A hebrew had just deleted all the External links section. What has Hades got to get so much vandalism? Other articles, which may treat of current affairs, I can understand, but don't accept. But this... --Francisco Valverde 18:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Because every school in the English-speaking world has a Greek myth section. Jkelly 23:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] whats thhere to learn in this artical , realy,?

this artical was very strang. It didnt really even talk about his family or how he became god of the under world. I got more info on other google web sites.why do you even have this?

• You are free to contribute if you find that an article is poor, that way we can all make each article better. --Francisco Valverde 06:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which Neopagans were you talking about, again?

Right. I don't know what this guy is talking about when he says "many neopagans believe... about Hades... afterlife... judged for sins..." Huh? If there's a single tenet on which "Neopagans" agree, it's that they don't agree at all about the afterlife or the ways in which me might or might not be held accountable for or sins. This sounds more Theistic than anything else, frankly. My worshi of Hades has absolutely nothing to do with this, nor have I ever heard anything like this before... Sure, I might have missed the memo, but there just couldn't be this much consensus on the story...

Hades is rarely represented in classical arts, save in depictions of the Rape of Persephone. This links to the Persephone myth, and a picture of "The Return of Persephone", no Rape of Persephone, so I'm taking the link out.

[edit] definition

"During the night before the first battle Hades put on his helmet and, being invisible, stole over to the Titans' camp and destroyed their weapons. The war lasted for ten years and ended with the victory of the younger gods." what does stole mean?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bud0011 (talk • contribs).

"Sneaked". Jkelly 02:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

if so, why not use sneaked? Bud0011 02:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Go right ahead and change it. Jkelly 03:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right! and remember the past tense of "sneak" is "snuck". Does the hymn "Steal Away" connote shoplifting to this person, one wonders? --Wetman 17:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Theseus and Pirithous

could this section be rewritten? i have trouble understanding it. (Anonymous)

[edit] purgatory and abraham's bosom

The line "Some view Abraham's Bosom as a separate location (although not the same as purgatory)." if factually incorrect and probably reflects merely the opinion of the author. There are many who DO view Abraham's bosom as identical with purgatory. Better just to leave the purgatory reference out, so I have deleted it.

Ah, where is Abraham's Bosom located indeed? The entire Church Chat section needs tuning up to concert pitch. Such a heartfelt personal essay would be impropved if the reader knew whose interpretations are being offered. --Wetman 17:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya i hate when that happens u know when the thing of the stuff that messes with the writning you just want to make that thing stop dosent that make u want to stop that thing, you know

[edit] CLEAN UP

Ya i hate when that happens u know when the thing of the stuff that messes with the writning you just want to make that thing stop dosent that make u want to stop that thing, you know

[edit] Underworld and underworld

Both "underworld" and "Underworld" are used in this article; it's inconsistent. Which version should be used? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Fastolfe (talk • contribs) 15:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hell?

I'm no expert on these issues, but it caught me that this is "Hell"? Why so? For example the Finnish tuonela is said to be similiar to this, but it's no hell, all people go there when they die. It might not be that happy place, but can you explain? Now when looking more closel y to the article, shouldn't Tartarus be in the "hell"-template? --Pudeo (Talk) 12:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common Misconception

I was just wondering why there is so much content about the Ancient Greek Underworld in an article about the Olympian God, Hades?

The article mentions that Hades is sometimes used as a substitute for the underworld - but that should be it. The rest of the content should be moved to Greek Underworld. I'll do this myself at some point if no valid objections come forward. Krea 19:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

What is the 'misconception'? The article correctly states that Hades eventually came to mean the underworld, and all of that content belongs here, so please don't move it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia reader entering "Hades" expects a discussion of both the brother of Zeus and the Greek underworld. Putting oneself in the reader's place often avoids unnecessary errors. --Wetman 21:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, by "misconception", I meant that scholars regard Hades as the God and not the underworld. I accept that Hades has, in some quarters, come to mean underworld, but why not place the information about the Greek underworld in the Greek Underworld article? That is where it should rightly be. Keep a paragraph explaining that "Hades" has come to be synonymous with the underworld and put a link to that article, but the bulk of that content really shouldn't be discussed here should it? Krea 21:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In Homeric epic the underworld is called simply domos Aidou (the house of Hades). There was no great distinction drawn between the god and his domain. In fact "Hades of the underworld" rendered in Greek is redundant "Aides Aidou." The realm and god naturally belong together in the same article. Theranos 17:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree: there is a clear distinction between the "abode of Hades" and "Hades". Hades, in all ancient works (as far as I know) is a nomen distinct from his dominion. But this is not really the point: this is merely a matter of organization. Why is there a need for a Greek Underworld article, if all that information is placed here? Idealistically, if there are two distinct but related meanings and two different articles, why not place a distinct meaning in a distinct article and link the two? There is MUCH that can be said of both Hades and the underworld: placing both in the same article is therefore illogical. Krea 14:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

A description of the underworld called hades belongs on a page called Hades. "Greek underworld" is not the same thing as "hades." In early Greek myths, tartarus was also part of the underworld. "Hades" is that part of the Greek underworld where the dead abided. The term "Hades" has taken on a life of its own. It got picked up and used by Jews and Christians for their abode of the dead. Maybe there should be two pages "Hades (god)" and "Hades (underworld)." But I want someone who's looking for "Hades" to find an underworld. Jonathan Tweet 04:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

A solution is simply arranged for everyone, without suppressing any text: I have inserted the following:

Main article: Greek underworld

A better version might be:

For context, see Greek underworld.

Please edit at Greek underworld and continue to make sure a concise version of that article continues to appear here at Hades. Italicized context headings should be more common: they show how articles fit within broader articles, don't you think? --Wetman 04:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that that's as best as I'll get it; so fine. For the record, Jonathan, there is no place in the underworld called "Hades". "Hades" is a god. Period. There is no confusion about this (he is not a personification of a place, emotion, or concept of any form either). Tartarus is indeed a part of the underworld; so are the Elysian fields, the Islands of the Blest, the various rivers that flow from Tartarus - but "Hades" is not one of these places. It is true that the word has taken on a life of its own, however. But this was not due to an obscure reference or meaning: it is a mistake.

If I wanted to be a pain in the ass, I could have asked what sources you have that call the underworld "Hades": all respectable sources do not (Iliad, Odyssey etc). It is only the ill-informed "secondary" sources that do call the underworld "Hades" (such as the Bible, who also mistook the underworld for "Hell"!) Can anybody supply these sources for me? For if not, this article is not based on fact, as it should be, but on people's interpretations of facts (having said that, common interpretations of facts also deserve a place in an encyclopedia - but only in a secondary role to the facts themselves).

Lastly, If somebody wanted to look for the Greek underworld and typed "Hades", I fail to see how we will be denying them that information if we say that it is merely one click away in the Greek Underworld article. But, right or wrong, the majority viewpoint prevails; so I'll concede. Krea 19:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The development of an extended meaning of Hades is part of the history of ideas. Krea's sources and quotes documenting this shift in meaning certainly belong in the article Hades --Wetman 20:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I will make the Greek Underworld article a bit more respectable if I have the time, but I hope somebody else would also do so. I have one request for this article though: take, for example, the line

"Beyond lay Erebus, which could be taken for a euphonym of Hades, whose own name was dread."

Now, I'm not sure what this line means. It seems to refer to a place called "Hades" within the underworld - contradicting the sense that "Hades" was the entirety of the underworld. My request is this: that we not refer to everything as "Hades" if it can be avoided, or at least clarify what we mean when we use the word when the context doesn't. Parts of the article refer to the underworld as the "underworld" and others as "Hades". Thus, I propose that we call Hades (the Olympian God) "Hades" (since he has no other name - besides euphemisms), and the underworld as the "Underworld". I thought I'd ask before doing this myself, so does anybody object?

Also, when did anyone take Erebus as a euphonym for the underworld (or a part of the underworld)? Where's this from? I know that the Erebus article basically says the same thing; but where did they get that information from? Erebus is the gloom/darkness of the underworld. I don't recall ever reading that he was a place in the underworld - rather he's a property of the place. For example, if we take Eros to be love, then if I poetically say "mortals who perform good acts are rewarded by entering the place of Eros," that doesn't mean that Eros is a place in heaven - it means that heaven is a place of love. Can somebody put me out of my confusion please! Krea 18:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Its probably best to organise the Greek Underworld article as an evolving concept, e.g. the underworld of Virgil is very different from that of Homer. Homer almost always refers to the the "underworld" as domos Aïdou, or Aïdao domoisi (plural), the "Hadean realm/s." Erebeus, "Place of Dark Mists," appears only once or twice. In book 8 of the Iliad Homer refers to it as simply Aides when he says that Tartaros lies "tosson enerth' Aïdeô hoson ouranos est' apo gaiês," = as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth. --Theranos 19:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's probably the best way to view the development of that article. However, I can't go into that much detail myself because I certainly don't have the time to do that much research. That quote from Iliad is rather odd. Homer seems to be refering to Hesiod's earlier Theogony; but the details are different. The Perseus Digital Library (whose pages take some time to load; so for anybody reading this, be patient) translates Homer's quote just as you say (line 14 onwards), and has this to say for Theogony (line 720 onwards). I'm no classicist, but I'd be weary of that bit of text - it is certinly odd and probably should not be taken at face value so naïvely. As you say, everywhere else (as far as I know) he refers to the underworld as the "domain of hades". As for Erebus, the quotes from Iliad (under the heading: 3 from Homer, Iliad), at face value, seem to indicate that it is a place. But this is merely a misunderstanding of what Erebus is. Erebus is the gloom, the darkness of the underworld, the "place of dark mists" as you put it. Replace "Erebus" with "darkness of the underworld" or the like and the quotes make just as much sense as the assumption that Erebus is a physical location. However, I don't know of any source that explicitly states that it is a location in the underworld; so, again, where does that line I quoted above come from? Krea 22:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that Iliad text might well be a later interpolation, or else a stock epic phrase (since something similar appears in Hesiod), its difficult to say. Here is the LSJ entry on Erebos [1] at Perseus. The term is used occasionally in old epic. Anyway, I agree its worth expanding on a separate Greek Underworld article (although technically its not always an "under" world!) -- there is the far western land beyond Oceanus tradition as well. To start off with at least, I'll insert a few sub-headings, and label the article a stub. Theranos 14:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I hate to say this, but "Greek underworld" should be called "Hades (underworld)." WP:Naming_conventions says that articles should be named according to what's most recognizable. People refer to the Greek underworld as "Hades" more often than they refer to it as "the Greek underworld." This article should be "Hades (god)." And we should have a disambiguation page at "Hades" to direct people to one or the other article. Jonathan Tweet 16:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That Erebus entry is quite interesting. Maybe Erebus does refer to a place after all? I have reached the limits of what I can add to this now, and I would either need to ask somebody more knowledgful that myself, or do some research. For now, I'd prefer the former since what texts that I do know of don't really clarify the issue, and I have more urgent things to research. However, I don't know any classicists, and it might be a while before I bumb into one; so I'll just have to leave that one for now. You're correct, of course, about the word "underworld" itself being misleading - but I did not know of this land beyond Oceanus. All that I knew was that Oceanus surrounded the world (and a few other odd bits of facts); but, then again, the texts are ambiguous to my untrained eye.

I'd also hate to accept that, Jonathan! (Maybe "hate" is too strong, more "slightly annoyed"). Although at least it is more organized that what we have now. I'm not sure, but would there be an implicit assumption that the names themselves be correct and accurate in the first place? Although I guess that that must be weighed against just how commonly accepted the inaccurate name is - which is where dreaded subjectivity enters the argument! Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind as long as the hypothetical Hades (underworld) article would state that calling the underworld "Hades" was techically incorrect. Krea 18:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"Greek underworld" is a usefully vague term, since it can include ALL the realms of the dead and those beneath the earth which were not strictly included as parts of "Hades," i.e. Elysium, the Elysian Islands, and Tartarus. BTW In the Odyssey the Underworld is located beyond the Western horizon. Odysseus reaches it by ship from Circe's island, and later on, in the description of the ghosts of the suitors, although they are herded by Hermes beneath the earth, but pass beyond Oceanus and the gates of the (setting) Sun before reaching Hades. --Theranos 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's have "Hades (god)," "Hades (underworld)," and "Greek underworld." "Greek underworld" would be a summary, including references to tartarus, etc. "Hades (underworld)" would be just the regular old abode of the dead. Jonathan Tweet 15:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)