Talk:Iraq

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Iraq was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: 26 September 2006

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Archives: 1 (April 2006), 2 (January 2007)

Contents 1 Mark Ammiano 2 Plagiarism is a sign of weak mind. Please people - write your own words. It is not THAT hard! 3 First Civilization? 4 The effect of the US invasion on reconstruction 5 Category:Territories under military occupation 6 Category:Alleged puppet states 7 Temporary governments 8 under the Ottoman empire section 9 Saddam Hussein 10 Population 11 Name 12 The Motto 13 'Regime' change 14 The End Of Iraq ? (an invented country) 14.1 Abdul Rahman Arif 15 Civil war? 15.1 Should the U.S. pull out?

[edit] Mark Ammiano

The only reputable study of deaths caused by the conflict was The Lancet study. This places the mid-point estimate of deaths at 655,000. Another study, the Iraq Body Count project puts the death toll at less than 10% of this however, this uses reports from media sources and has no proven basis for this as a valid methodology.

This is astonishingly biased. The IBC project is by far the most respected and relied upon source of casualty figures. The Lancet Report is EXTREMELY controversial, and is usually not quoted excepted in highly "political" contexts.

So Tony Blair's statement that Britain was at risk of attack within 45 minutes means that the weapons program was still under (very rapid) development? Please do not try and put your lies into this article. 74.103.34.126 12:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I think article should be marked as non-neutral until it is thoroughly reviewed and fixed. {{editprotected}} Erikmartin 18:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not an appropriate subject of a protected page edit request. Please wait four days for your account to become autoconfirmed, then you can edit the article for yourself. Try and seek consensus for these changes on this page in the meantime. Sandstein 06:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism is a sign of weak mind. Please people - write your own words. It is not THAT hard!

Plagiarism is so pervasive online, and sadly on wikipedia as well. Often when I run into the exact same words on wikipedia and elsewhere I am rather sure the other sites stole from wikipedia. However, here I find whole sentences lifted right from the CIA world factbook entry on Iraq! Now, don't get me wrong... I am certain the CIA is quite willing to stoop to plagiarism (hell, they TORTURE people, after all, so what do they care if they piss off English teachers like myself?) but I rather doubt they did in THIS case.

One quick example: 1st sentence in this article's section on economy and 1st sentence in equivalent cia factbook section. It greatly reduces the credibility of the site when you do this, so just don't. If you can't manage to use your OWN words then please don't use any. When you plagiarize you are hurting, not helping, the site. Really there is no excuse, not when you can so easily get help with your writing from others devoting time and effort to improve wikipedia. --Fitzhugh 03:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Civilization?

iraq has first civilization? sumer? this should be deleted and corrected very soon. so what about the sind civilization in pakistan and civilizations such as burned city and jiroft in IRAN? if iraq had the first civilization, so why today they are too uncivilized?

The issue of the first civilization is speculative and doubtful. How about China?

agreed -- "first civilization" should be changed to "one of the earliest known civilizations". Similarly, in the Ancient History section "these civilizations produced the earliest writing" should be changed to "these civilizations produced some of the earliest known writing." I believe we definitely know of earlier writing, such as the Indus Valley Script. As for the location of truely the first civilization, that is an unknown. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erikmartin (talk • contribs) 18:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] The effect of the US invasion on reconstruction

What is the statement in Iraq#Reconstruction that

Reconstruction of Iraq has been difficult [...] due to [...] the influx of the US invasion

supposed to mean? The US invasion caused the damage and once it was complete, then reconstruction began, so the invasion which is no longer in progress can't be really getting in the way, can it?--Rudjek 22:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Territories under military occupation

I see that the article was recently categorized as Territories under military occupation. Since, according to the article Multinational force in Iraq, the occupation formally ended on June 28, 2004, and there appears to be a status of forces agreement with the sovereign government, this would not appear to be NPOV. I propose reversion. --Boson 01:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Is the government of Iraq sovereign? --- Safemariner 01:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Alleged puppet states

The categorization under "Alleged puppet states" carries the risk of spreading allegations without indicating by whom the allegations are made. I propose reversion. Perhaps the whole category should be deleted. At the very least, it should only be used for articles that detail such allegations and state the source of the allegations. Puppet state: "The term is partisan and prone to semantic disputes, used almost exclusively by detractors of such governments, whether or not the majority of citizens affected acknowledge the characterization, or object to that kind of government. Often a proclaimed puppet government faces a rival government which uses the puppet government term to weaken the legitimacy of that government. Also usually implied is the government's lack of legitimacy, in the view of those using the term."--Boson 07:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, all the top leaders of the Iraqi government are 'guarded' directly by American troops or indirectly by American security companies paid by the American government. Do any of the leaders so guarded have the freedom to oppose American guidance and so risk being labelled a terrorist sympathizer and being arrested (or worse) by the very persons who guard them? --- Safemariner 22:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There are doubtless a number of arguments that one could adduce to support the POV that Iraq is a puppet state (of the USA or Iran), but that is not the point, in my opinion. Categorizing Country X as an alleged puppet state is equivalent to stating that unnamed entities have alleged that Country X is a puppet of another unnamed entity. Such a category merely encorages making unverified, pejorative POV statements that are probably too vague even to be falsified. There are also a number of implied assumptions, for instance that it is sensible to classify states into alleged puppet states and others, and that states not so categorized have not been alleged to be puppet states. In fact many states have been alleged to be puppet states:

• Israel is allegedly a puppet state of the USA
• The USA is allegedly a puppet state of the Zionists.
• Palestine is allegedly a puppet state created by the Arab nations to destabilize the Zionist Entity.
• Syria, the Lebanon, and Iraq allegedly are (or were or will be) puppet states of Iran.
• Pakistan, Afghanistan, Ukraine, North Korea, . . . .
• etc. etc. --Boson 18:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You may want to propose that the category be deleted as it is inherently a POV category. This page is not the forum to discuss if a category is a POV category. You can propose this category's deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. I will even support its deletion. However, as long as the category exists, Iraq would be a good candidate for it. --- Safemariner 20:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Safemariner, I'm just curious, do you consider Japan a pupet state of the U.S.? --Erikmartin 18:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

category Mistake on page I do not know how to edit on Wiki, but in the Iraq article there is a reference to the Iraq-Iran war being fought with water guns... I guess that is an abuse...

[edit] Temporary governments

So let me get this straight...first there was the CPA, then the IGC, then the IIG and then the ITG? Any more transitional governments in the history of this obviously very provisional country? I mean, come on, how much care can a government take? VolatileChemical 01:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] under the Ottoman empire section

I noticed the date of 1509 doesn't fit, is it supposed to be 1609?

Finwar 09:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saddam Hussein

The word "preventitive" should be "preemptive". The Israelis made a preemptive strike on the nuclear facility to prevent Iraq from making weapons grade fissionable material. 64.16.131.2 21:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC) Jon_Low 16:32, 13 February 2007

US DOD usage (DOD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms)

"preemptive attack (DOD) An attack initiated on the basis of incontrovertible evidence that an enemy attack is imminent."

"preventive war (DOD) A war initiated in the belief that military conflict, while not imminent, is inevitable, and that to delay would involve greater risk."

I think "preventive" is closer. --Boson 21:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, bombing A facility is hardly a war. Second, the first description is better if a proper description of what 'imminent' is refering to can be shown. 218.215.136.203 16:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The point is that "pre-emptive" is much more short-term. I am not suggesting replacing "attack" by "war".--Boson 21:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population

I changed the population and if the old numbers are correct of 28 million that means the population of Iraq has dropped by 2 million in one yearPotaaatos 16:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

2 million in one year seems slightly on the high side. This source has about 2 milllion since 2003.

"The United Nations High Commission for Refugees estimates that some 2 million people out of a population of 26 million have left Iraq since the US-led war in 2003 . . . ."

--Boson 21:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

A couple million fled from the country and one million killed since the U.S. invasion.

-G

[edit] Name

Another version of the origin of the name widely accepted:

The word عراق is the Arabic version (معرٌب) of the word Arak. Arak was the name of an area as well as a small river (that does not exist anymore) in the middle of the ancient Iran, literally meaning “the middle of Iran”. After the invasion of Arabs in the 7th century A.D., the area in the middle of Iran was called عراق عجم (Iraq of Iran) for this same reason. Today, the city Arak in that area receives her name from the same root. The area currently known as Iraq worldwide was named Iraq of Arab (عراق عرب) to distinguish it from Iraq of Iran and at the time to proudly announce that Arabia is so big that this area is in the middle of it. Later the name was given to this country.

The name Uruk (Uruq) does mean "two rivers" in Arabic/Aramaic but is very unlikely to be the origin as it is used for small rather than large rivers.

Your article suggests that the country was called Iraq of Arab under the Sasanid Empire. That’s incorrect. The word Iraq of Arab appears in the literature much later than the Sasanids.

Does anyone even pay attention to the discussions? The Name section of this article has serious flaws and should be revised!

[edit] The Motto

Is not it "God is One" ?

[edit] 'Regime' change

'Regime' is a very negative word for government, and using it, at least in my opinion, breaches NPOV. Plenty of undemocratic governments are referred to as, indeed, governments, so the use of the word 'regime' pushes a certain value. I'm tempted to rectify all of it's instances in this article, as I am in other articles, but I'd like some consensus and debate on it first. Black-Velvet 04:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I share some of your NPOV concerns about the use of "regime" for a government but I think the use in this article is OK. I see the following legitimate uses of "regime":

• To refer to the time that a single person is in power. For monarchies, the term "rule" or "reign" would be appropriate. For dictatorships or one-party systems these words are not appropriate, but a similar word is necessary. I think "regime" fills this gap as an objective way of referring to the period.
• It can refer to the system of running a country, whereas "government" refers to a particular, constitutionally legitimized part of that system (and is used differently in parliamentary and presidential systems). In democratic republics, the distinction may not be very important, but a separate word may be necessary in dictatorships or systems where actual practice differs significantly from the written constitutional order and power is wielded by bodies loyal to a dictator or other leader but not part of the government. This use may be perceived as disparaging in the United States, but this itself may be POV, in the same way as "communist" or "dictator" might be seen as insults in the USA but would be objective descriptions in openly communist or dictatorial regimes.
• Particularly when referring to abuses, "government", rather than "regime", might imply that the abuses were legitimately sanctioned by the government.

I found the following uses of "regime" in the article. I don't think "government" is appropriate in any of them. I would, personally, tend to leave them, but have tentatively suggested alternatives (in parentheses) in case "regime" is considered disparaging.

• "There have been many large-scale waves of emigration from Iraq, beginning early in the regime (rule) of Saddam Hussein (or: shortly after Saddam Hussein came to power) and continuing through 2007."
• "This period is notorious for the regime's (omit "the regime's) human rights abuses, such as those during the Al-Anfal campaign."
• "It was crippled by Israeli aircraft in 1981 in a preventive strike to prevent the regime of Saddam Hussein (Iraq) from using the reactor for the creation of nuclear weapons."
• "There have been many large-scale waves of emigration from Iraq, beginning early in the regime of Saddam Hussein (after Saddam Hussein came to power) and continuing through 2007."
• "The ongoing violence in Iraq has been incited by an amalgam of religious extremists that believe an Islamic Caliphate should rule, old sectarian regime members that had ruled under Saddam (people who had held positions of power under Saddam Hussein) that want back the power they had, and Iraqi nationalists that are fighting the U.S. military presence." --Boson 18:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The End Of Iraq ? (an invented country)

As the beginning of the article says Iraq is in the midst of a Civil War. It seems likely if not inevitable that the country will be partitioned three ways with the Sunnis to the left of the Euphrates, the Shia to the right and an independent Kurdistan coming into existence in the North. Should the article have some mention of this? Also the borders of present day Iraq are invented and the political entity is artificial. The article does not make that clear. SmokeyTheCat 10:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Breaking up Iraq into sectarian micro-nations may be the intent of American strategy, but it is not what the majority of Iraqi people themselves seem to want. BBC report on Iraqi opinion Dabbler 11:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I would have strongly thought that US strategy is to keep Iraq together. However the only thing that unites the Sunni and Shia groupings is their mutual antagonism to the US/UK occupation. SmokeyTheCat 10:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abdul Rahman Arif

Is he still alive or what? Hes either 88 or 90 but i havent heard anything about him in iraq.Vital Component

[edit] Civil war?

From the opening paragraph: "Today, it is a developing nation in the midst of a civil war." Is that the consensus? Wasn't there just a poll of Iraqis where 60% said it was not a civil war?--Daveswagon 19:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

==Biased?++ This seems all biased and untrue. Please include some real facts.

Excuse me, but, do you need a majority of the Iraqi population to agree about if there is or not a civil war? This same Wikipedia has a definition for civil war you probably should consult and see if it fits the case of Iraq's current situation. Gabrielx 11:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

As the article on civil war points out, there is no consensus definition. Some of the definitions are intended to differentiate a civil war from other wars, but it also has to be a war, not just terrorism, semi-organized murder, or skirmishes between religious or political groups. It comes down to what definition is most useful, from a neutral point of view, for an international English-language encyclopaedia. I find the definition at http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060728-iraq-civil-war.htm helpful:

"A civil war is a war between factions of the same country. There are five criteria for international recognition of this status: The contestants must control territory, have a functioning government, enjoy some foreign recognition, have identifiable regular armed forces and engage in major military operations."

So I would ask:

• Do the insurgents control territory?
• Do the insurgents have a functioning government?
• Do the insurgents have "identifiable regular armed forces?"
• Do the insurgents engage in major military operations?

--Boson 18:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should the U.S. pull out?

(This is just to see what you think, don't get worked up about it.)

I think America has made their point in Iraq, I think that the terrorists now know America will fight if they attack. Every Nation involved has lost people, Plus Iraq's economy is being damaged. The people in Iraq don't want the United States there anyways. Saddam is dead so shouldn't the war be over if America got what they went there for? What do you think, Again don't get upset by other peoples Opinions I just wanted to give people something else to talk about. Bloddyfriday 13:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what this has to do with Wikipedia. We are not meant to be a discussion forum. The Talk page is to discuss the article itself, not the subject of the article. Dabbler 14:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)