Talk:OS-tan

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This article was nominated for deletion on October 1, 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Contents 1 Archive 2 Fair use issues 3 What the hell, sexual fetish references? 4 Vista-tan, does she exist yet? 5 Comments from article 6 Sweeping Revisions 7 Revision to March 5, 2007 7.1 For Windows XP 7.2 For Windows 2000 7.3 For Windows ME 7.4 For Windows 98 & 98SE 7.5 For Windows 95 7.6 For Refrences and In-Jokes 7.6.1 For Scallion 7.6.2 For Breast Size, Hunger, and Memory 7.7 For Movement against Netrunner 8 Non Windows OS Tans 9 POV-Check for March 19, 2007

[edit] Archive

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Archive: 1

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[edit] Fair use issues

I am not too familiar with fair use policies, nor am I familiar with the sources of the images on this pages. However, the image for os-tan Windows 2000 has been nominated for deletion because of its lack of a fair use rationale. I'm not sure why its the only one listed for deletion. I would think that the fair use rationale for the big image at the top would apply to all the individual os-tan images on this page as well. Would someone who knows what they are doing please add an appropriate rationale for each of the images of individual os-tans that are being used under fair-use? Nimrand 20:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It's just an image like the Windows logos, So if I were to post a logo of Windows 2000 on there. Look, I'm breaking the law, Someone nominate that image for deletion, It violates fair usage rights. Yeah right. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.183.61.209 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit more complicated than that - plus the Windows 2000 logo is allowable in Wikipedia in the context of it being a logo for a particular product that has an article entry. The 2k-tan was nominated as part of a sweep because the original uploaded didn't have any supporting fair-use rational for it or notes as to where it came from, however, the image was kept and rational has been provided so it's a non-issue. --Darkstar949 17:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What the hell, sexual fetish references?

I don't know where this originated, but whatever sexual fetish commonly assigned to OS-tans are redundant in an encyclopedic article describing them. What sexual fantasies some artists apply to these characters has nothing to do with the subject. 2k-tan into futanari? What do these characters have to do with futanari? I, and I would assume many others, would view the mention of such a fetish or condition unfitting for any article that has no basis in describing anything directly linked to it. They are alsa highly POV-based claims, existing only in the fantasy of some artists or communities dedicated to the OS-tans. --Ifrit 23:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vista-tan, does she exist yet?

Google says there're a whole bunch of designs floating around for her, link here. http://darkdiamond.net/features/tuesday-tans-celebrate-vista-with-vista-tan/ Should we wait to update the article until a "finalized" version is selected?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.92.38.205 (talk) 22:28, 2 March, 2007 (UTC)

From what I've seen, The general design thats been decided on by the artists is the girl in the red and white sailor fuku, Its still too early to tell anyways.

Personally, I prefer the red and white design over the green one.--Theredstarswl 02:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments from article

I have been working on tighting up the artile which means lots of editing - what follows are some comments that I removed from it:
"Previous versions of this article claimed one story or the other as fact, and also stated that Futaba Channel and 2chan were independent sources each credited with the origin. Checking of facts and reference-gathering needs to be done, I'm just editing. I believe part of the futaba/2channel confusion comes from the fact that English speakers usually call Futaba Channel 2chan, because futaba's internet address is 2chan.net. It is however recognized to be separate from 2ch.net, which is what Japanese refer to as 2channel. Therefore, someone talking about 2chan really means futaba chan and not 2channel" --Darkstar949 16:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sweeping Revisions

As apparent from the article, it has undergone sweeping revisions. Please do not revert past the sweeping revisions, the majority of the original information is still in the article only now tightened up a bit with references. If significant changes are needed please discuss them before we start an edit war. --Darkstar949 12:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revision to March 5, 2007

Why, Because this article has been butchered, Severel refrences were deleted, Pictures that were being used were removed, and Netrunners conflicts have been removed making it seem like it didn't happen. --SU182 16:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

A few things. First, which references are you referring too? All of the external links are still in place and links in the article were either irrelevant to the content of the article (a listing of the songs in Troubled Windows does not need to be in an article about OS-tans) or were revised to inline citations which still appear at the bottom of the page. Second, one of the pictures that were removed was a non-sourced image has been deleted off of the Wikipedia server (95-tan) and the other is not an accurate representation of 98-tan. I actually have some of the original images from the List of OS-tans article that I am going to try and upload tonight under fair use rational. Thus the images are a non-issue. Finally, the Netrunner information has actually been expanded a bit - the only part dropped was about the one doujin's story line. The Futaba Society versus Deja Vu issue was dropped because I can't find any information in relation to it and the last update according to the article was in 2004, thus some form of a source would be needed for Deja Vu to be added back in. --Darkstar949 17:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well for one, Under history parts of the text seemed to be removed.

 The concept is reported to have begun as a personification of the common perception of Windows Me as unstable and prone to frequent crashes. Discussions on Futaba Channel likened this to the stereotype of a fickle, troublesome girl. This personification expanded, with the creation of Me-tan (dated to August 6, 2003) followed by the other characters. A large collection of these images can be found here. Some of the comics have been translated by readers on 4chan and idlechan. They have been archived at Trouble Windows Translations, along with the Japanese counterparts. There also exists a Macromedia Flash Animation showing a possible intro to an imaginary anime show, Troubled Windows (とらぶる・うぃんどうず Toraburu Windouzu). It features interactivity, where the viewer can click to cause different visuals in the animation. A fansub of this has been created, and can be found here. The fansub, however, is a video file, and is not interactive. The music is Sakuranbo Kiss ~Bakuhatsu da mo~n~ (さくらんぼキッス ～爆発だも～ん～; translates to "Cherry Kiss ~it's an explosion mo~n~"), by KOTOKO, which was originally the opening theme from a visual novel known as Colorful Kiss (カラフルキッス ～12コの胸キュン!～), released by GIGA. An ending theme called OS-Pittan also exists. The music is Futari no Xenopittan (ふたりのぜのぴったん), a remix version of Futari no Mojipittan, a song from the PS2 word puzzle game Mojipittan. The song was made for a game based on Mojipittan called Xenopittan, which features characters and terminology from the PlayStation 2 game Xenosaga. It is found on a fan disc for Xenosaga, known as Xenosaga Freaks. It can be heard at the end of the medley found here. The song was sung by voice actresses Ai Maeda (who voiced Shion Uzuki in Xenosaga), Suzuki Mariko (who voiced KOS-MOS in the same game), and Shishido Rumi (who voiced MOMO in the same game). Both flash files can be viewed here. Also, as a satire, Bill Gates was mentioned in the credit of this hypothetical anime (after about 50 seconds). There also exists a Photoshop-modified picture, mimicking news of a new animation release in a Japanese magazine. Mac OS X, Linux, and Linspire girls have also shown up on the Internet, although some non-OS male characters exist for programs and hardware. Norton AntiVirus is usually portrayed as a creepy looking, possibly lecherous old doctor. Predating all of this is Toy's iMac Girl, the feature of a series of wallpapers first appearing between August 1998 and March 1999.

For one, The following text seems to be added under the following sections.

[edit] For Windows XP

• you added "(pronounced [homeko], not [ˈhoʊmko])"
• you added "She is characterized as a fujoshi and yaoi doujinshi artist who has an unhealthy fascination *with her gender-confused brother Homeo (/homeo/)."
• You also replaced "rice bowl" with "donburi"

[edit] For Windows 2000

• You removed "operating system" from the sentence
• You replaced "alluding to the popular opinion" with "This is thought to reflect the opinion"
• You removed

 She is characterized as the "dependable woman" among the OS-tans and one of the domain controllers

• You added

 in stories

You replaced "The blue in the picture is close to the default Windows 2000 desktop colour. 2k-tan is often associated with Futanari, and is sometimes depicted as being one herself." with "The particular shade of blue used in most drawings is similar to the default Windows 2000 desktop color."

[edit] For Windows ME

• You replaced "The more cutesy personification of the much maligned and infamously unreliable Windows Me OS, ME-tan's appearance rarely varies and was the first OS-tan created, by the one now called "ME-aki". She is instantly recognizable; she has green hair in long pigtails and wears a maid outfit with a" with "The design of ME-tan, the personification of Windows Me, is very much in line with the Japanese concept of kawaii or cuteness. Her design has changed little from the artist's original designs [6] and is depicted with green hair in long pigtails wearing a maid outfit with a".
• You replaced "ME-tan is a hard worker and always wants to help her master (Toshiaki), but predictably fails at everything she tries to do" with "While she is considered to be a hard worker, comics often depict her failing at anything she tries to do".
• You removed "(see here)."

[edit] For Windows 98 & 98SE

• Here's the original

 Many variations exist; however, the most common is a pair of young girls. The First Edition of 98 has a white and blue uniform, a navy blue hair with a clip shaped like "98", and has a windows logo as part of a necktie, she is also somtimes seen as a futanari (female with male genitals). The 98 Second Edition mascot normally has grey-blue hair and a green sailor school uniform with the letters SE on the front, and her most commonly used phrase is "all dicks seriously need to die".

Two early versions that continue to be used alongside the girls are a pair of stick-limbed snack-boxes with a face and version number drawn in crayon, based on the "Vulcan 300" toy that appeared in the anime series Konjiki no Gash Bell!!. In the very early days before the designs of the primary OS-tans had settled, generic stick-limbed boxes were often used as placeholders; there had been instances of small DOS and Windows 3.11 boxes before other designs gained popularity. Both girls now make regular use of these as "mechanical suits." The "mech-box" used by 98 is blue in colour, and likewise the 98SE mech-box has a green theme. The mechs are sometimes shown as guardians or friends to the 98-tans, otherwise the two girls can be seated inside them as pilots. The box sizes can vary, ranging from doll-like when carried by the girls to taller than an adult when they ride inside them. While both are fairly shy girls, 98SE is seen hiding in her mech-box a lot more often.

And here's your altered version.

 While many variations exist the most common depiction of the Windows 98 operating systems is a pair of young girls. The OS Girl representative of the original release of Windows 98 is shown in a white and blue uniform that includes the Windows logo as part of a neck tie, navy blue hair, and a "98" hair clip. The Windows 98 Second Edition OS Girl is similar in appearance, but wears a green sailor school uniform with the letters "SE" on the front. Two early representations that are also seen are a pair of stick-limbed Pocky boxes with a face and version number drawn in crayon, a reference to the Konjiki no Gash Bell!! anime series. These early representations are still used in stories as a mecha piloted by the girls, dolls carried by the girls, or sometimes even as hiding places for them.

[edit] For Windows 95

• You replaced "95, being an older version of "modern" Windows," with "As 95 is considered to be the oldest of the modern 32-bit Windows operating systems, it"
• You deleted "typically depicted as"
• You replaced "costume" with "outfit"
• You replaced "cultural background" with "refrence"
• You deleted "is seen there"
• You replaced "Her most common activities are" with "She is typcially depicted as engaged in"
• You deleted "One comic strip shows her talking to other OS-tans about beating up MacOS; and 95 is commonly portrayed with an overwhelming hatred of the Macintosh OS-Tans, particularly her bitter rival MacOS-tan.

Due to Windows 95's lack of support for Unicode, several OS-tan four-panel comics have been made portraying other OS-tans encouraging 95-tan to "think in Russian!" and 95-tan's inability to internalize the Russian language enough to accomplish this." You moved "Additionally, the pattern of her kimono is based on the file "hana256.bmp", which was used as a desktop wallpaper pattern in the Japanese version of Windows", Next to the word Japan.

[edit] For Refrences and In-Jokes

• You added "Some of these are subtle references that require an intimate knowledge of Japanese culture, while others are frequently appearing themes."
• You inverted "Scallion" and "Breast Size, Hunger, and Memory"

[edit] For Scallion

• Here's the original version.

 Often the Windows girls are seen carrying scallions. This is a pun: a popular Japanese firewall program (NEGiES) sounds like the Japanese word for "scallion" (negi) so the OS-tan carry scallions around as shields or weapons. A scallion is also the icon used for the firewall itself.

Here's your butchered version

 Another common theme are the OS Girls carrying scallions and using them either as shields or as a weapon. This is a pun in reference to the popular Japanese firewall program NEGiES for which has a pronunciation similar to the Japanese word for "scallion" (negi), which also uses a scallion as an application icon [8].

[edit] For Breast Size, Hunger, and Memory

• Here's the original version.

 It has been suggested from time to time, that the breast sizes of the individual OS-tans represent their RAM requirements. Because Windows XP is considered a memory hog due to its increased resource consumption, XP-tan is incredibly well endowed (and she has no qualms about getting "upgraded" from time to time). 2K-tan normally rates as a close second, whereas the DOS pair are at the other end of the spectrum. Another theory states that the breast size of an OS-tan represents the overall "fanciness" of their graphical user interface. Since XP was designed with 'bells and whistles', she has the largest breasts, but DOS, being no more than a command prompt, is at the other extreme. An alternate method of displaying memory or resource requirements in general is through the character's appetite. XP is often seen eating ridiculous amounts of food, sometimes to the point of obesity.

Here's the butchered version.

 It has been suggested from time to time that the breast sizes of the individual OS-tans can be representative of either their represent their RAM requirements, or the fanciness of their graphical user interface, although it should be noted that more complex user interfaces typically require more system resources to run. In practice, XP-tan is typically depicted as being well endowed while at the other end of the scale are the OS Girls representatives of DOS. Additionally, stories will sometimes include a reference to XP-tan or 2K-tan receiving an upgrade to their resources, usually followed by an increase in breast size.

[edit] For Movement against Netrunner

• Here's the original version

Netrunner, a monthly computer magazine in Japan, introduced an image board browsing software named "Berry" in one issue. "Berry" created a surge of traffic to Futaba, as well as many inexperienced users who knew nothing about the rules and decorum of Futaba. This troubled, but did not entirely anger, Futaba users. However, the May 2004 issue of Netrunner was bundled with a set of trading cards, depicting (among others) many original characters from Futaba-including ME-tan. As this was done without permission from the original designer of ME-tan, many people became angry with Netrunner, and the designer of ME-tan announced that it will never grant permission to use any of its work to anyone related to Netrunner. Furthermore, users from Futaba produced a series of banners and images, indicating that it doesn't welcome anyone related to Netrunner. Several OS-tans were also included in these banners. In one OS-tan manga, 2K-tan and XP-tan break into Netoran's office (or literally "Netrun", an abbreviation of Netrunner) to rescue the abducted ME-tan, only to find that ME-tan has already killed everybody there using a knife with the name "B. Gate" (as in Bill Gates) on it. 2K-tan and XP-tan refer to "B. Gate" as "father".

and here's the butchered version

The controversy involving Netrunner, a monthly computer magazine in Japan, began when the magazine introduced an image board browsing software named Berry in an issue. The software was responsible for created a surge of traffic to Futaba Channel, as well as many inexperienced users who knew nothing about the rules and decorum of the image board. This had the affect of troubling, but did not entirely angering, the regular Futaba Channel users. However, the May 2004 issue of Netrunner was bundled with a set of trading cards, depicting many of the original characters from Futaba Channel artists including ME-tan. As this was done without permission from the artists permission, many people became angry with Netrunner and the designer of ME-tan announced that they would never grant permission to use any of its work to anyone related to Netrunner [9]. This has lead to the appearance of a number of different banners appear on artist websites against the magazine.

• You removed this from the article entirely.

Dispute between Futaba Society and Deja VuDeja Vu Art Works is a doujin group in Japan, which has published doujinshi of the OS-tan called "Kyōyū Fol-DA!" (共有フォルDA!, kyōyū foruda?) (Literal translation: Shared Fol-DA!). However, it has clashed with Futaba society on several points:Deja Vu's manga use its own design of NT-tan (Windows NT 4.0 SP6) instead of Futaba's design. Futaba users claimed this is disrespectful to original creators of OS-tan, hence so called "stealing" OS-tan from them. Deja Vu claimed it has rights to create new characters. Deja Vu published a 2K-tan manga with "©Deja vu" on it. Futaba users claimed the copyright mark showed that Deja Vu ignored the original creator of OS-tan and claimed themselves as the original creators, and are intentionally misleading others (to think so). They also showed a screenshot on the Internet, showing some other doujin group mistaken Deja Vu and "Kyōyū Fol-DA!" as original creator. Deja Vu claimed it was only a careless mistake. A cosplay photo of XP-tan (by MALINO, a member of Deja Vu) was posted on Futaba, while the costume's tailor only permitted the photo to be posted in a membership-based cosplay site. Futaba users claimed that Deja Vu posted those photos, hence violating the agreement. Deja Vu claimed that it only posted the photo in the members-only cosplay site, but soon somebody posted those photos on Futaba with an insult. Later, a Futaba user found a link (hidden by using text in the same color as the background) which later was deleted. Futaba users claimed this as proof that Deja Vu actually violated the agreement. Deja Vu claimed its post was only a counter measure against the post in Futaba, and had no intention of violating the agreement. Later they deleted the link as it received complaints from the XP-tan costume's tailor. Originally in Deja Vu's homepage, one only claimed its manga was being published on Netrunner, but after the start of the dispute one changed its homepage and claimed that its manga on Netrunner was published without its permission. Futaba users claim this is a fact showing Deja Vu had been working for Netrunner. Deja Vu claimed the change in its homepage only reflects the facts. There are some other minor disputes. To the date of this edit (September 24, 2004), it seems that the dispute still can't be resolved, or at least that the parties involved have no intention of resolving it. Generally, Futaba Society considers Deja Vu as another enemy (just like Netrunner), Deja Vu declared it would continue to publish its manga, and other people either remain neutral (e.g. the creators of ME-tan and XP-tan) or ignorant of the dispute.

So stating the edits you.

1. Were probally trying to "americanize" it.
2. Show off your lousy editing skills
3. Probally work for Deja Vu Artworks
4. Were probally going to improve it but failed.

I hope you look over this kindly.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SU182 (talk • contribs).

Wow, I honestly don't know where to begin to respond to that ~ so lets start with your "talking points." First off, I'm not trying to Americanize the article, somethings were changed (like donburi to rice bowl) but they are largely a manual of style issue than anything else. Next off, I'm not egotistical so showing off my editing skills is a non-issue, plus this is Wikipedia, someone else editing your work is a fact of life. Third, Deja Vu Artworks is based in Japan, if I worked for them that would seem that I lived in Japan as well, in which case, why would I want to Americanize the article? Which brings us to trying to improve the article. As noted before, a good chuck of infomraiton in the original revisions was irrelevant - you do NOT need a song listing from a flash animation in an article that is a general overview of a subject. Also, the Deja Vu information was removed because it was unsourced and I can't seem to find any indication of resolution for the topic - it happened in 2004 and it is now 2007 either it was resolved or it fell by the way side, where as the Netrunner controversy is still on going and received a great deal of notice when it happened. If there is a bunch of information on Deja Vu that I am missing then by all means, point out some links and we can work it into the article. Now, in regards to most of the changes - this article toes very close to the fancruft category and as such most of the edits are there to try and pull it away from that category. In case you haven't noticed, most of the information in the List of OS-tans article is gone because that article was deleted; one of the reasons for which was fancruft. Now all that said, there is no reason why the descriptions of the top five 'tans can be expanded a bit, but you must remember that should not be a full bio of the characters, plus the fact that they can be changed at an artists whim means that you can't write in the matter of "OSX-tan is always seen poking XP-tan" with a stick - that is just one thing that an artist can do. --Darkstar949 02:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Irrevelent, First of all, a song listing is not irrevelant to this article and tells the user more about that certain piece of work, Secondly, Removing the Deja Vu conterversy is a violation of Wikipedia's POV, and Original Research terms, and by removing that, Your making sure that the event didn't even happen in the first place, It's just like Microsoft paying people to remove "inaccuracies" on their Wikipedia page.

It seems like you are shortening the info and making it more specific without giving more about that certain subject, It seems like you are trying to make it more readable and less knowledgabe, People have a right to know everything. --SU182 02:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The song listing is irrelevant to a page about OS-tan's because it does nothing to explain what OS-tan's are; however, it would be extremely relevant to an article about Troubled Windows. Since the Deja Vu contervery had a total of zero references to where more information could be found it falls under WP:V and even WP:OR. As I have stated a number of times, find some sources that can provide more informaiton on it and by all means, we can add it back in under it's own sections category listing. --Darkstar949 02:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You removed a particular song just because it has nothing to do with the subject on hand? Complete Bull, and removing the Deja Vu controversy just because it has zero refrences is also a fact, Your profile also tells me that you are a member of the USAF who likes Japanese Culture and anything based on military. Your edits are newbish and probally making it short and to the point, I know but I looked at it, You don't seem very reputable, You also can seem to make an article look like someone's first piece of work, That's the truth. --SU182 12:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You know that I removed more than just a single song from that section, I trimmed it down quite a bit. But once again, it was with the goal of only having the relevant information to OS-tan's history. That said, I did search around to see if I could find anything about the Deja Vu controversy and I only removed it after I found nothing. Now if you know something about it the by all means provide a reference in regards to it and we can clean-up the section so that it will reflect of the overall "B" status of the article. There is no reason why this article cannot get up to "Good" status, but arguing about the nuances that lead to it getting "B" status is not going to helps improve the article.

Furthermore, Wikipedia editors are expected to assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. Your recent replies are firmly in the realm of personal attacks.--Darkstar949 16:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You think I'm making personal attacks on you, No, I'm merely pointing out that you have shrunk the article and made many errors in the progress. --SU182 21:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

"Your edits are newbish" that is considered to be a personal attack. --Darkstar949 22:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Welll while we are on the subject, This should state why your edits are newbish.

That's one of your edits. --SU182 09:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

That edit is over a year old and was for a stub article, are you making it a point of your day to go through my history and try find ways to attempt to insult me? --Darkstar949 15:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No, We find ways to prove you wrong, Your cotributions seem to be giving out info at a

very fast pase without any sourcing of any kind, your edits also seem to lean tords the

fanboyish side and without question, You also seem to just find info, Insert it in a

wikipedia newbie way and click. Your articles also seem to give out info that could

easily be found on any article about that certain subject. --SU182 16:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non Windows OS Tans

Why aren't there images and descriptions of—or even mention of—the Mac OS Tans and the Linux Tan and other non Windows Tans? Kakaze 04:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

They're only minor characters that would only bload up the article, Unnessecary Info. --SU182 08:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There isn't even a mention of any non Windows characters...what you call "bload" I call useful information. What ever happened to the list of all the characters anyway? There should be a list. Kakaze 08:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The list of all OS-tans was deleted by the admins for being non-encyclopedic, and they warned us to only keep an nominal list of examples in this article as well. --Darkstar949 13:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV-Check for March 19, 2007

The article has been nominated for a NPOV check for the following reasons:

• The article has been reverted to a prior form overwriting edits and references - Wikipedia:Assume good faith
• The article fails to cite sources regarding controversy - WP:V, WP:OR
• The article shows signs of fancruft in various parts - Wikipedia:Fancruft

Furthermore the article will be demoted to Start class for the remainder of the POV-Check. If the editors cannot resolve their differences involving the article it will be nominated for third party Attribution. --Darkstar949 13:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

One, YOU'RE NOT A MODERATOR, Two, It's been in nomination for a few days now. --SU182 13:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)+

No, I am not a moderator, however, any editor that is having a dispute with another editor has the right to voice their concerns (which I have done) and if the concerns are not resolved by the editors then they also have the right to request third party attribution. I have tried to work with you on the article, but you showed and unwillingness and by reverting the article to one of your previous edits you further reinforced that unwillingness. As such I am voicing my concerns and inviting you to work with me on the article so that we may avoid the attribution process. As I have stated before, I only want to improve the article. --Darkstar949 13:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, You should become an Administator, With that kind of knowledge, No one will ever doubt you, I forgot, Please join something that makes you worthy, Join CVU, Join some products, Do what you please.--SU182 14:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

If you are still there, Please respond... --SU182 03:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm still around, but I'm being distracted by life. --Darkstar949 12:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is just my obvservation, but it seems to me from reading this page that Darkstar has made some reasonable edits and presented reasonable arguments to justify those edits. Instead of engaging Darkstar in a conversation to build consensus as required by Wikipedia's standards, it seems SU182 has evaded Darkstar's arguments by attacking his credibility, which, by the way, is a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well." But, thats just my two cents.Nimrand 13:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What resonable, He removed a lot of stuff that made the article great, Removed a lot of Japanese Refrences, Replaced -tan with girls, and basicly downsizing the article, Now the one before Darkstar was better cause it didn't replace everything so that americans can understand it, and if you look at his edits, You'll see that his edits has come a long way and that he's only good for understanding Wikipedia's policies. --SU182 16:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Not everything Japanese is automatically better. Since this is an English-language encyclopedia, the goal is to make articles as clear as possible to native speakers of English without the need for obscure cultural knowledge. Unless you can provide a compelling reason otherwise, that's what it will stay.

Likewise, downsizing is not inherently a bad thing: excess verbosity benefits no one at all. Deleting information is a personal judgement call, but the clarity and flow of the article are more important considerations than covering every trivial unsourced detail or hypothesis about the OS-tans. This is an encyclopedia article, not a garbage dump for information. -Seventh Holy Scripture 06:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The goal is to store every bit of information while writing it in an encyclopedic fashion, Japanese or not, It's to store everything about the article while keeping it's culturial roots, While at the same time, Making it easy for anyone to understand this, It's like we'd like to say, Complexity for the simple, If you see this goal in the wikipedia rules, Let me know. --SU182 14:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The goal is NOT to store every bit of information. This is why, for instance, the descriptions of so many of the characters were deleted. And the idea of writing every bit of information while keeping encyclopedic is oxy-moronic. Read WP:NOT, "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." Particularly, unsourced material should not be included in the article. If no suitable source can be found for the information, it should eventually be deleted. Also, the "cultural roots" of the article is only important to provide the reader context. Therefore, it is very appropriate to use English words in place of Japanese ones to provided that the article is still accurate. If the article is not accessible to someone who knows nothing of OS-tans or Japanese culture, then the article has not served its purpose. Furthermore, linking the English transaction of a term to an article with more information about the Japanese term is also very appropriate, which is what I believe Darkstar did in at least one case. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nimrand (talk • contribs) 18:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

I know but to store every known information that isn't knowlegadble, This is an encyclopedia not a phone book but the only thing that you care about is making it accessable, What about all the other articles that sport complex phrases that the newbie doesn't understand, Wikipedia is not about making it acessable, It's about the user and how he has a world of knowledge to understand, It for the user to understand, not to half-understand. --SU182 20:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say the only thing I care about is to make it accessible. But, I don't just care about the amount of information in Wikipedia, I also care about its quality and the quality of how the information is presented. I believe using English words makes it better quality because makes the article more accessible to more people, without harming the quantity of information or overall accuracy of the article. Is it really important that only the Japanese word for rice-bowl be used in the article for one to understand OS-tans? I don't think so, particularly when the rice-bowl article is linked to. As for the articles that "sport complex phrases that the newbie doesn't understand." If that is really the case, then the article should be edited. An encyclopedia, by its very nature, is reference material for looking up information on a random topic. Therefore, an article should be written such that most people can read the article on its own and understand it, with links to related articles for more information. But, as far as its avoidable, the article shouldn't be written so that one had to read lots of other articles to understand the one he or she is really interested in. I really don't understand why you think its so important to protect the article's "cultural roots," whatever that means. The article should provide context about Japanese culture, sure, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for using Japanese words when English ones would suffice.

"Not everything Japanese...". I can agree with that sentiment. It's silly to quibble over the use of the word rice bowl when it's best to go with English terms in such cases. However, SU182 also complained about OS-tan being changed to OS-girl. That's going too far since the accepted term is OS-tan. While I'm at it I'll also weigh in on "Dispute between Futaba Society and Deja Vu". Please write it as a single paragraph instead of a detailed list. Right now it's taking up so much space that it sounds like a bigger deal than it is. It is, however, worth mentioning the dispute, just in case some confused soul wonders where proper credit for the OS-tans should go. Come to think of it, "Futaba Society" is a poor choice of words. It implies that the site as a legal entity was opposed to Deja Vu, or that it was a formal association linked to Futaba. In reality it was a group of largely anonymous artists and their equally anonymous fans hanging out on one of the random boards that got worked up about proper credit. It's deeply ironic somebody would write "instead of Futaba's design" in a text about proper credit, as it gives the erraneous impression that Futaba owns the designs. MechaDonna 00:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The Deja Vu segment isn't about anonymous author's worked up about proper credit, It's about a Doujin group called Deja Vu Artworks pissing off Fubutra channel, As stated, The things that pissed them off was not using their designs, Creating their own designs, and Voilating agremments and the fact that they might be Netrunner. The orginization that Fubutra hates so much now that's my opinion but if you think that it's wrong. Do research on the subject! --SU182 00:48, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't need to do research on the subject. If the information doesn't have a source, then its unverifiable and therefore cannot be included on Wikipedia. If its just your opinion, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Nimrand 01:20, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I agree that replacing OS-tan with OS-girls is going too far. Nimrand 01:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)