Talk:Osaka/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 More Photos
2 Walking Speed?
3 Sister Cities Change
4 Second or Third largest city?
5 Korean town?

More Photos

I have some of my photos of 大坂 from joy-wheel near Kaiyukan. Should I add them in this article? Laitr Keiows 20:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

If they illustrate the article in a new and informative way, sure! In any case, why not put them on Commons. They can go in Commons:Category:Osaka and/or Commons:Osaka. Photos on Commons are available for Wikipedia in all languages, and for all other Wikimedia projects (such as Wiktionary, Wikibooks). Individual Wikipedia articles don't need multiple illustrations of the same topic (e.g. similar cityscapes of the same city) but on Commons there are often lots of similar shots so that people can select the one they like best to illustrate an article. And in a few cases, Wikipedia articles can accommodate additional photos in galleries (see Nikko, Tochigi for an example). So we have lots of possibilities for your photos. Thanks! Fg2 21:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Walking Speed?

"They apparently also walk the fastest in Japan - at an average speed of 1.6 metres per second (surpassing even Tokyoites who also walk fast at 1.56 metres per second)."

I am extremely curious as to where this information was found, and more importantly, how the HECK was it measued? Could someone provide a source, maybe? I imagine they would take a representative/distrobuted sample of both Tokyoites and Osakaites and measure their walking speeds...but wouldn't that still be biased since the people sampled KNOW they are being measured for walking speed? How can you measure someone's walking speed without bias? The Linguist 18:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought spelling and grammar are your pet peeves? David D. (Talk)

Yes, but I was so astounded the rediculousness of the information that even my detest for bad spelling and grammar was negated. They were replaced by an inquisitive (yet cynical) wave of emotion. The question has yet to be answered. 161.45.160.105 19:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the reference for this information, however, it is not hard to imagine how it was measured. Nevertheless, you are correct, a citation would be preferable. David D. (Talk) 20:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Amazing. Such an amount of complexity in procedure in order to obtain such a tiny tidbit of information. The Linguist 04:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Sister Cities Change

Changed The "United States" link next to Chicago, so it's a link, in the Sister Cities section, and added Cedar Rapids, as it is also a sister city. Impartialitationator 02:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Osaka's official Osaka and the World page in English does not list Cedar Rapids. Are you sure it's a sister of Osaka, the city? Or maybe it's a sister of one of the cities in Osaka Prefecture? If you have more precise information, it would be helpful. Fg2 21:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Second or Third largest city?

The article currently says, "and the third-largest city in Japan, with a population of 2.7 million." But if you look at the all the articles that list Japanese cities by population, Osaka should be Second. Tokyo is not actually a city, so the only city that is bigger is Yokohama, which is 'part' of Tokyo. I think this should be changed, though I did not do it yet because I wanted to see if anyone had objections.

I've always thought that Osaka was the second-largest city, and Yokohama the third. LordAmeth 03:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean, Tokyo is not actually a city? On the Japanese page for Osaka, it says Osaka's daytime population is the 2nd largest in the country, second only to Tokyo, but the nighttime population is the third largest, after Yokohama and Tokyo. This fact is already in the article, "The city's daytime (9 a.m. – 5 p.m.) population is second in Japan after Tokyo".Mackan 04:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

If you don't know that Tokyo is not a city, you might be interested in reading Talk:Tokyo#Note: Tokyo-to is not a city. Various population figures are available for Tokyo, including a total for the 23 special wards that comprise the area that was Tokyo City up to 1943. If you want to use the total figure for those 23 cities and call it a city, then you rank Osaka third. The article on the special wards gives the total as 8.3 million. According to the articles on Yokohama and Osaka, Yokohama has a million more people than Osaka. If you don't want to aggregate the pieces of the former city of Tokyo, then Yokohama is #1 and Osaka #2. Fg2 05:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting reading, but... Tokyo-to is of course not a city, but Tokyo is. The Japanese entry on 東京 is clear about this. Also, why would you not count Tokyo when the Japanese page does?Mackan 05:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, actually, he has a point. Tokyo-to is a prefecture, not a city. But of course, then the same must go for Osaka and Kyoto, which are both "-fu" and thus prefectures and not cities. And New York is just a conglomeration of five counties, only one of which is New York County. London is just sort of an imaginary large urban area encompassing many other areas along with the much smaller City of London. Washington's not a city, either; it's a district - the District of Columbia. LordAmeth 13:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Osaka is the name of a city, and it's the name of a prefecture (fu). The two governments are different. The city is an ordinary city within the prefecture of the same name. The prefecture encompasses the city and other municipalities, as do all other prefectures. The translation "urban prefecture" is sometimes used, but it does not mean a prefecture composed of a single city, and so might cause some confusion. The same is true of Kyoto. The prefecture (fu) extends all the way to the Sea of Japan, and takes in some pretty remote countryside, fishing villages etc. The city of Kyoto is much smaller, and shares the prefecture with many other municipalities. Both Osaka and Kyoto resemble Tokyo prior to 1943: a city and a larger prefecture having the same name. Since then, the governmental system of Tokyo has changed considerably, but the governments of the other two have changed far less (with just the usual mergers etc.). Fg2 23:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess my point was that it seems weird to say that the two bigger cities than Osaka are Tokyo and Yokohama, when Yokohama is included in the Tokyo population. Maybe this should just be clarified, but on the list of Japanese cities by population article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Japan_by_population it says that Osaka is second since Tokyo is not a city. So should this just be clairified instead?

I'm confused. Yokohama is not included in the population of Tokyo. It's in the population of the Greater Tokyo area but not in the population of Tokyo (that is, Tokyo-to), nor in the population of the 23 special wards. Is there some article in Wikipedia that presents Yokohama or its population as being part of Tokyo? (By the way, when you link to a Wikipedia article from anywhere within Wikipedia, it's simple to put the title between double brackets, like this: [[List of cities in Japan by population]]. You can copy and paste the article title from the article itself.) Fg2 02:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right Fg2, Yokohama is not included in the population of Tokyo-to. I think I have finally figured it out. As the Yokohama article says - Yokohama "Yokohama is the capital city of Kanagawa Prefecture in Japan, one of the core cities of the Greater Tokyo and Japan's largest seaport. The fact that the former Tokyo City is not administered as a single city makes Yokohama the largest incorporated city in Japan by population." As I said before, Tokyo is not a city proper as the Yokohama article says. Thus Osaka is the second largest city in Japan in population as this article List of cities in Japan by population says. So I propose that the Osaka article be changed and made like the Yokohama article which explains why Tokyo is not counted as a single city and thus Osaka is the second biggest. Also thank you for your help with links.

Your proposal strikes me as reasonable, provided we include some text like the statement you quoted from the Yokohama article to alert the reader that the ranking doesn't include Tokyo (readers seem to expect that it would include Tokyo). Of course, I'm not the only person with an opinion, and perhaps LordAmeth or another person will have something to say.

By the way, if you have a special interest in Osaka, you might want to contribute to Portal:Osaka, which hasn't seen much development. Some other links that might interest anyone with an eye on Japan:

Fg2 02:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I have generally found with Wikipedia that it's just not worth the effort to argue over a lot of things; you guys go ahead and do whatever you think is right with this here issue. I'm not going to revert it, or argue over it. I just think that the definition of what counts as a city and what doesn't seems awfully arbitrary, particularly given Japan's strange administrative arrangements. To anyone ignorant of these administrative details (Tokyo being governed by a prefectural government without any city government), common sense says that it's a city. You have to at least admit that. Is there any part of the prefecture which you would consider to be a city? I find this whole issue to be a very interesting one, and I am glad it is discussed at length on the Tokyo page. But I don't think it should really be used to eliminate Tokyo from the running from largest city in the country and such things like this. It's a farce - it's like talking about the largest/wealthiest/most important cities in China and ignoring Hong Kong because it's a "Special Administrative Region", a Region, not a city. Anyway, there's my two cents. I'll leave you alone now. LordAmeth 11:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to be a nuisance, but I must ojbect to saying Osaka is the second largest city - as I said before, Tokyo is a city, as defined on the Japanese Wikipedia entry on Tokyo (not Tokyo-to). The fact that Tokyo isn't administered as one city doesn't mean it's not a city, IT IS, and I think the article would only be so much more confusing if you change it around to account for the fact that Tokyo is not a "proper city" (even with an explanatory text saying Tokyo isn't included). Also, look at the Japanese Wikipedia pages, they put Osaka as third so obviously the Japanese regards Tokyo as a city. Mackan 13:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, you quote the "list of cities in Japan by population" but if you check out the article it will be merged with Tokyo is number 1. Also if you check the Japanese page [1], Tokyo is number 1. Let's not make things harder then they should be. Tokyo definately falls under the definition of the English word "city", it even falls under the Japanese word 都市. Mackan 13:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

If there is objection to editing so that it explains about Tokyo like the Yokohama article, then how about just saying that Osaka is the third largest city behind Tokyo and Yokohama. (Although I think this obviously needs to be addressed accross the articles in general since the Yokohama page claims Yokohama to be the largest city. It will also have to be addressed in the other two articles List of Japanese cities by population and List of cities in Japan by population as well. The reason I thought this should be addressed in the first place, is because most people have never heard of Yokohama, and so being ignorant myself, I was curious what two cities were bigger than Osaka. I have been to many triva nights where Tokyo and Osaka are considered the two largest cities with no mention of Yokohama. So how about the article just states that the two bigger cities are Tokyo and Yokohama.

Korean town?

Its 91,500 Korean residents are mainly concentrated around Ikuno Ward, where a famous Korean town, Tsuruhashi, is located.

Is there a Korean town in Osaka? Is that like a chinatown, or is it actual Korean territory (higly doubt that). Can someone explain this? Ninja neko 07:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Osaka Korean Town 大阪コリアンタウン is like a Chinatown in Osaka. It is not Korean territory. See for example this sightseeing article which includes photos. Fg2 07:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

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