Talk:Paul Kagame
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[edit] MISINFORMATION
The opening paragraph of this biography is appalling. This article should not be used on a public forum. The statement, "he is best known for his role in the Rwandan Genocide in 1994 and his involvement into the shooting down of the plane carrying the then President, Juvenal Habyarimana, and his counterpart of Burundi, Cyprien Ntaryamira" is completely alleged and there has been no public scrutiny of evidence. Paul Kagame has vehemently denied any involvement. This biography is completely one-sided. Libel should not be included in any article on Wikipedia. It must be deleted.
Kagame ordered the shooting of the plane ?
There is some mention already of this, both here and the genocide page, but we have names now.
Where does this go ? Wizzy…☎ 16:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
On 13 July 2005, the official photograph of Paul Kagame was replaced with a completely different image [1]. I feel that the new image violates the principles of NPOV. The new image pictured Kagame with a frown, amongst soldiers. This different image would be more approprate in a different section of the article that describes Kagame's military career. I attempted to revert the image to it's previous version, but there seems to be some sort of issue with MediaWiki at the moment, I created a new image with a file name that is more discriptive and updated the article. --Commonchaos 18:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Accuracy / POV
Flagging for NPOV. The article seems overly biased towards Kagame. Notably, it directly implicates the Hutus in the assassination of Habyarimana (an uncertainty at best) while also making no note of claims that Kagame orchestrated the assassination. Additional word choices seem to be unnecessarily biased against the United Nations' response. SReynhout 04:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Agreed - I've made some changes accordingly. 80.41.60.200 21:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kagame the worst war criminal alive ? PLEASE REVIEW THIS ARTICLE FAR TOO LENIENT
Series of articles and books (in French, by Canadian, European and African) have been published :
Je pense qu'il est rediculous et inhumain pour que le Français indique que le RPF a tiré en bas de l'avion. C'est un mensonge. Les extrémistes hutus ont tiré en bas de l'avion, parce qu'ils ont voulu créer la propagande contre les tutsis et le RPF. C'est pourquoi les hutus ont blâmé le RPF « incitent » la fête de massacre. Les Français d'une part, sont justes blâmant le RPF de se briser de l'avion afin de s'excuser pour leur coopération avec le gouvernement hutu génocide. Le Français a coopéré avec le gouvernement hutu à éliminer les Tutsis ! Quand l'entente de paix a été signée entre le RPF et le gouvernement en 1993, le gouvernement hutu était fâché et juste a voulu trouver une manière de rester dans la puissance, parce qu'ils ont su qu'ils desserraient au RPF. C'est pourquoi le gouvernement hutu a fouetté dehors leur colère sur la population tutsie parce qu'ils ne pourraient pas défaire le RPF. Ils ont juste voulu employer la propagande et leur petite station par radio stupide pour provoquer la haine contre le Tutsi. Cependant, l'ironie de ceci est que le tutsi au Rwanda n'ont rien à faire avec le RPF. Le RPF a été basé en Ouganda. Ils consisited des Tutsis qui ont décidé de quitter le Rwanda pour se sauver l'Ouganda quand les Hutus sont venus pour actionner dans les années 50. Les tutsis au Rwanda étaient ceux qui ont décidé de rester. De façon générale, le tutsi et la violence de hutu n'est pas nouveau mais elle n'est pas vieille. Il y avait un temps que les Tutsis et les Hutus ont vécu ensemble dans la paix. Tout était untill correct allant que les Belges ignorants sont entré et ont pratiqué se divisent et conquièrent (une stratégie européenne typique). Les Belges ont divisé le Tutsi et le Hutu, et depuis puis, ils ont observé dans le divertissement comme Tutsi et combat hutu. Quand le Français « interviened » dans le génocide rwandais en 1994, ils sont venus pour observer, rire, et soutenir le gouvernement hutu, pas économiser le Tutsi et pour arrêter les massacres. Quoi qu'il en soit, le RPF étaient victorius, quoiqu'ils aient combattu tous par eux-mêmes. Le plus, le RPF ne devrait pas n'être blâmé d'aucun massacre. Le RPF a dû faire leur travail. S'il was'nt pour le RPF, tous tutsis et hutus modérés de l'été mort en raison du gouvernement hutu, des extrémistes hutus, et des troupes françaises ! ! !
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20060421/CPARTS/604210635/1041/CPARTS
http://www.radiocanada.ca/nouvelles/International/2006/04/20/003-rwanda-zone-libre-jeudi.shtml
http://www.spcm.org/Journal/article.php3?id_article=2171
http://www.lalibre.be/article.phtml?id=10&subid=83&art_id=279648
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2268054152/qid=1145626306/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/403-1243190-2872442 François Mitterrand, l'armée française et le Rwanda de Bernard Lugan
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2842059298/qid=1145711494/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/403-1243190-2872442 Noires fureurs, blancs menteurs : Rwanda 1990-1994 de Pierre Péan
Recently a TV broadcast on the French service of the CBC (Radio-Canada) was rather blunt about it :
"Dans le reportage, deux anciens officiers du Front patriotique rwandais (FPR) affirment que l'actuel président du Rwanda, Paul Kagame, aurait programmé l'attentat contre le général Habyarimana. Selon les témoins interrogés, en plus des 800 000 Tutsis tués pendant le génocide, entre 400 000 et 600 000 Hutus auraient subi le même sort." http://www.radio-canada.ca/radio/sansfrontieres/72010.shtml
C'est ignorant, le RPF n'a pas tué que beaucoup de hutus, et s'ils, les hutus qu'ils étaient massacre étaient des extrémistes de hutu responsables de tuer beaucoup plus de personnes pendant le génocide rwandais en 1994!
(Radio interview on same news) http://www.radio-canada.ca/Medianet/2006/CBF/CestBienMeilleurLeMatin200604210815_1.asx —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.205.142.205 (talk • contribs) 22 April 2006.
- It should be kept in mind when reviewing this article that all negative sources I have seen here are French in origin, or actually in French. Please remember that the French supplied the genocidal (francophone) government that Kagame fought against in arms, training and leadership. France and Rwanda still have very negative relations and many such sources may well be biased.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.26.37.191 (talk • contribs) 9 August 2006.
I'm sorry, but we can't just dismiss any article written in French simply on the basis that the French government doesn't like Kagame. The British and US governments have very positive relations with Kagame, but that's not a reason for us to dismiss all sources written in English!
Having said this, I do have to query some of the anti-Kagame wording in this article. The initial paragraph could be interpreted as claiming that Kagame took part in the Rwandan genocide rather than, as most mainstream sources would suggest, helping to stop it. 80.43.36.38 16:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- This is Wikipedia. You, anyone, everyone is welcome to edit the article. Just provide references for your edits. If you find anything that is untrue or unsourced, remove it, or tag it as {{fact}}. If you believe the article is unbalanced, if something is missing, add to it. That, monsieur, is how Wikipedia works. --Ezeu 17:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Whitewashing
I took out this series of edits - I think Kagame cannot come out of the Genocide as only the injured party. Wizzy…☎ 15:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that it is rediculous and inhumane for the French to say that the RPF shot down the plane. That is a lie. The Hutu extremists shot down the plane, because they wanted to create propaganda against the tutsis and the RPF. That's why the hutus blamed the RPF in order to "incite" the killing spree. The French on the other hand, are just blaming the RPF for the crashing of the plane in order to excuse themselves for their cooperation with the genocidal Hutu Government. The French cooperated with the Hutu government to wipe out the Tutsis! When the Peace accord was signed between the RPF and the Government in 1993, the Hutu government was angry and just wanted to find a way to stay in power, because they knew that they were loosing to the RPF. That's why the Hutu government lashed out their anger on the Tutsi population because they could not defeat the RPF. They just wanted to use propaganda and their little stupid radio station to provoke hatred against the Tutsi. However, the irony of this is that the tutsi in Rwanda have nothing to do with the RPF. The RPF was based in Uganda. They consisited of Tutsis who decided to leave Rwanda to flee Uganda when the Hutus came to power in the 1950s. The tutsis in Rwanda were those who decided to stay. Overall, the tutsi and hutu violence is not new but it is not old. There was a time that the Tutsis and Hutus lived together in peace. Everything was going okay untill the ignorant belgians came in and practiced divide and conquer( a typical European strategy). The Belgians divided the Tutsi and Hutu, and ever since then, they have watched in entertainment as the Tutsi and Hutu fight each other. When the French "interviened" in the Rwandan Genocide in 1994, they came to watch,laugh, and support the Hutu government, not save the Tutsi and stop the killings. Anyway, the RPF were victorius, even though they fought all by themselves. Plus, the RPF should not be blamed for any massacres. The RPF had to do their job. If it was'nt for the RPF, all the tutsis and moderate hutus would of been dead because of the Hutu government, Hutu extremists, and the French troops!!!
I think that the article about the 30-year old so called Interhamwhe needs to be removed, because it is rediculous. The same interhamwe were responsible for 800,000 deaths in 100 days in Rwanda. Its obvious that he is lying. What does he mean that the RPF are shooting in the air? The RPF are trying to eliminate cowards like him who have been hiding in the Democratic Republic of Congo for more than 10 years. Furthermore, the RPF are definitely not tired of fighting. The only reason why there are not invading the hutu extremists is because the international community asked them to leave. That 30-year old Interhamwhe better stop running his mouth and be lucky that the RPF did not catch him!! Furthermore, what does the interhamwhe mean that the his army has not fought the RPF in a while? I'll tell you what the Interhamwhe have been doing. The've been running away for a while-not fighting the RPF!
The French need to quit this garbage about Kagame being a criminal. The French are just making excuses for supporting the Hutu genocidal Government. Kagame is not a criminal, he is a good leader who stopped a horrific genocide in its tracks. When the French came to Rwanda for their so-called intervention, they came only to support the Hutu Genocidal Government. The strangest thing about the French troops is that they had 95% more troops than Romeo Dallaire did, wherelse Romeo Dallaire saved 200% more tutsis than the French did. So really, that explains a lot about the "real" reason the french came to Rwanda, because it obviously wasn't to protect the "tutsis", it was to "watch" them being slaughtered and arm the barbaric and ignorant hutu genocidal government. Anyways, Kagame is one of the best leaders in Africa. No leader in Africa compares to him except for maybe Nelson Mandela! Now, here is a translation for the lying French to understand:
La nécessité française de stopper ces ordures au sujet de Kagame étant un criminel. Les Français sont des excuses de fabrication justes pour soutenir le gouvernement génocide hutu. Kagame n'est pas un criminel, il est un bon chef qui a arrêté un génocide terrifiant dans ses voies. Quand le Français est venu au Rwanda pour leur prétendue intervention, ils sont venus pour soutenir seulement le gouvernement génocide hutu. La chose la plus étrange au sujet des troupes françaises est qu'ils ont eu 95% troupes supplémentaires que Romeo Dallaire, wherelse Romeo que Dallaire a sauvé 200% tutsis supplémentaires que le Français a fait. Tellement vraiment, cela explique beaucoup au sujet de la « vraie » raison que le Français est venu au Rwanda, parce qu'il n'était pas évidemment de protéger les « tutsis », il était « les observent » étant abattus et arment le gouvernement génocide de hutu barbare et ignorant. Quoi qu'il en soit, Kagame est l'un des meilleurs chefs en Afrique. Aucun chef en Afrique ne compare à lui excepté peut-être Nelson Mandela !
We just honestly don't know. Kagame and the RPF deny it and the French findings supposedly support Kagame ordering the shoot down. I personally don't believe he did, it really wouldn't make sense. Everyone in Rwanda at the time knew what that would have meant, and if Kagame cared enough about his own people, he would have known better than to order the shoot down. But you never know. He may have had a convoluted plot to achieve power, because he knew the Hutu militia were no match for the RPF. I doubt it, war is the most unpredictable act and Kagame has proven himself to be rational and a reasonably moderate leader. I don't think the present situation in Rwanda where race classification is now criminal would be on the books if Kagame was that sinister in his previous actions. But the court is still out. The French were well known to have supplied the militias and were a blocking force against the efforts of the UN to try to aid the Tutsis and moderate Hutus. If the Socialists of Mdm. Royale come to power in France, let us see if the opinions of the Gallic courts change. I say both sides of the debate about Mr. Kagame's innocence or guilt in the shoot down should be presented and let history decide the truth of the allegations later. It is not the place of Wikipedia to be the judge and jury for such a serious and awful charge.
Diggerjohn111 2/5/2007 23:42 PM
[edit] Poor Quality
This article needs to be cleaned up... It reads like it was a battlefield for a NPOV war.
[edit] Political Forum
This article must adhere to higher standards and neutraly document to the current ongoings. It is not a french or african political forum. It must state facts not unproven theories. Instead of "Kagame conspired to shoot the plane down" state the fact "Currently France is in process of submitting a request to ICTR for a trial of Kagame for assasination of Juvenal Habyarimana." Please do not try to make this a political forum for purposes of national conflicts, if Paul is innocient he will be vindicated This will not happen on Wikipedia, but rather in the real world.
[edit] Assasination of Rwanda's and Burundi's presidents.
- On p. 37 of Immaculee Iliabagiza's book Left to Tell, she said that in the days immediately preceding the shoot-down of the plane, the RTLM (Hutu power) radio stated that "if anything happens to our president, then we must exterminate all the Tutsis right away!" Immaculee's first thought upon hearing of the assassinations was that the Tutsis would now be exterminated. As soon as the plane was shot down, the planned and listed assassinations in Kigali began. The U.N. was notified of the planned genocide three months in advance, and they could have raided the weapons caches, but chose not to do so. The RTLM radio continued to be used to keep the Tutsis grouped for slaughter.
- I might add more later, but just from this it's obvious that Paul Kagame did not order the shoot-down of the plane. 55akw 00:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree completely with 55akw. There is ample evidence from plenty of scholarly articles, books, and popular reports that show Kagame had nothing to do with the downing of the plane. There is plenty of evidence to discredit a shaky investigation by Bruguière.Mvblair 22:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Question : is it clear that the plane was shot down at all? I accept that it was the most likely explanation, but there is no proof offered ( except for heresay trestamny ) so I don't see how there can be any indictment. 145.253.108.22 15:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Precipitating Event of the Rwandan Genocide?" -- Jean-Louis Bruguière's Investigation Paragraph
The introduction reads "[Kagame's] invasion of Rwanda is often cited as one precipitating event of the Rwandan Genocide." I completely disagree with the use of the word "precipitating" because it implies that Kagame's invasion itself kicked off the genocide. As we all know, the genocide was in preparation for years. Perhaps Kagame's invasion stirred Hutu Power and RTLM to intensify their genocidal campaigns, but there is no scholarly proof of that either. Furthermore, the sentence that I quote above is not sourced. It is completely disingenuous and inaccurate.
Likewise, the paragraph about Jean-Louis Bruguière's investigation is inappropriate. It should be removed. Bruguière blamed Kagame immediately following the downing of the plane (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6196226.stm) and before collecting evidence. In November 2006, when Bruguière formally accused Kagame, he was postdating his earlier indictiments. Bruguière himself has not cited any genuine evidence -- only second hand information from two individuals, both who are having a political tiff with Kagame. Bruguière's investigation does not even seem to warrant mention here, since Bruguière himself does not want the investigation continued. Philip Gourevitch documented Bruguière's attempts to blame Tutsis (and Kagame in particular) for the genocide in "We With to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families," published in 1998, eight years before the so-called indictment. Given this, I suggest that this paragraph be removed or properly amended.
Just because one person (Bruguière) decides that Kagame is guilty does not make it a fact. I could just as easily say "John Doe murdered three people in London yesterday," but that doesn't make it a fact. Even the president of a nation can say "John Doe knows witchcraft," but that doesn't make it a reportable fact.
Mvblair 22:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kofi Annan quote
"The exact details of the shooting down remain in doubt and only last week the UN admitted that it had failed to investigate properly the plane's black box voice recorder, recovered at the crash site.
The box was shipped back to the UN headquarters in New York where it remained overlooked in a filing cabinet until last week.
The UN secretary-general, Kofi Annan, said it was a "first-class foul-up" but claimed there had been no cover-up. The black box will now be fully tested to glean as many details as possible about the doomed plane."
Does this source say that the poor investigation was a foul-up, or the shooting down? Ambiguous.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.69.14.35 (talk) 03:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
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