Talk:Saint Martin

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I don't see why the Saint Martin article should be moved here. Sint Maarten Saint Martin is a rather obscure title. I vote for moving this back to Saint Martin - Cordyph 16:23, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree (and I'm Dutch!) Pascal 16:25, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I will move it back by copying and pasting the content (since most of the edit history is in "Saint Martin" and would be lost by using the "Move this page" function) -- Cordyph 17:33, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The reason is that the island itself is not named Saint Martin. That name belongs to the French side. (If you disagree, please cite any official source that describes the island as being named "Saint Martin", and not the combination of the Dutch and French spellings.) The official line is that the island is referred to by Sint Maarten / Saint Martin or Saint Martin / Saint Maarten. What's wrong with using the correct name for the island, combining the pages, and redirecting the French and Dutch pages to the one combined page? After all, it is one island.

Saint Martin is the English name which should be used for the title. The French name is Saint-Martin (with a hyphen and of course a different pronunciation). --Wik 18:12, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)

I disagree. Do you have a reference supporting this statement?

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=66600

On the other hand, here is the official French government website:

http://www.st-martin.org/

And the official Dutch government website:

http://www.interknowledge.com/st-maarten/index.html

Those are tourist sites, not official government sites as far as I can tell. "Sint Maarten/Saint-Martin" is just a way to refer to the island in its local languages. It's like calling Switzerland "Suisse/Schweiz/Svizzera". But in an English encyclopaedia the English name should be used, which is (obviously) Saint Martin. The island was named by Columbus in 1493 after Saint Martin of Tours, long before it was divided between the French and Dutch (1648). --Wik 19:12, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)

They are government financed sites, associated with the tourism offices of the respective govts, to the best of my knowledge. Referring to St. Martin/St. Maarten as "Saint Martin" is like referring to North America as the United States, and then including Canada under the US page. "Saint Martin" is not an island; it is a territory that sits on one half of one island. Just because the locals didn't come up with anything easier to spell than St. Martin/St. Maarten does not give wikipedia the right to change it. As it is, this wiki does not reflect the contemporary naming of the island. It is accurate pre-1648 at least. I know firsthand; I have been there a half-dozen times in as many years and worked with the local governments. Thank you and regards.

As a Canadian, I thank you for our distinction! As for Sint Maarten / Saint Martin, there are other notable differences. The currency in Sint Maarten is the Netherlands Antillean Florin / Guilder (NAF), in Saint Martin it's the Euro. (Both sides freely accept the U.S. Dollar, of course.) Electric power is 110v in Sint Maarten, and the European 220v on the French side. Both sides have their own licence plates. Separate governments too, obviously. The capitol of Sint Maarten is Phillipsburg, and Marigot is the capitol of Saint Martin. BTW, We were there for a WONDERFUL vacation last October!TeeEmEll 06:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, some confusion arises from the similarity of the English and French versions. The nuance with the hyphen escapes many people, and so they think it inappropriate to refer to the whole island by what seems to be name of the French half only. And then they use the combined version. But I don't think we have to follow that practice here. --Wik 20:09, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)

As you wish. I just thought it would have been proper and polite, if you will, to refer to the island the same way the people who actually live and spend time there do. You will never understand a culture's nuances and sensitivities by reading an outdated version of Britannica.

I noticed, that native english speakers often think, that the inhabitants of a country want english speakers to refer to their country in the inhabitants' language. This is a common misjudgement. There have been lots of talk about different places of the world, where for example someone stated, that Bavaria has to be called Bayern, or Milan should be called Milano, and Moscow is Moskva and so on. In fact noone expects english speakers to change the geographical names in use. I am almost sure, that this is valid for this island as well. -- Cordyph 20:31, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As a former journalist and editor for newspapers (the Today Newspaper, St. Martin's Week, and All at Sea) on the both the French side of Saint Martin and the Dutch side of Sint Maarten the aforementioned spellings were standard practice (style-wise). The English Caribbean media generally spells it according to which side of the island they are writing about. I personally feel that by having no page title for [Sint Maarten] linked/duplicated is an insult to residents of the Dutch side of the island and the Kingdom of the Netherlands in general. My suggestion would be to duplicate this page at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?Sint_Maarten

Britannica, Columbia and the CIA World Factbook have this article under "Saint Martin":

• http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=66600
• http://www.bartleby.com/65/st/StMartin.html
• https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nt.html

You are claiming, that Saint Martin is not the name of the island, but just of one part of the island. Does that mean, that the island has no name? It is obvious, that both names are just literal translations of one and the same name. So it is unnecessary to have both names in the title. I would suggest to add a sentence explaining why the form "Sint Maarten/Saint-Martin" is often used - but it should not be in the title. -- Cordyph 20:23, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I stand corrected. I like the idea of putting a sentence on the Saint Martin page. Someone please hug me.

Okay, I do it. (Hug!) I am looking forward to your contributions. -- Cordyph 21:05, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Who wrote the part about the island belonging to the Swedish king? Doesn't it belong both to France and Holland? I cannot find any sources anywhere supporting the statement that the island is the private property of the Swedish king, and have never ever before heard about it, and I am Swedish!

Shouldn't it be taken away? --Konstantin 15:03, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sweden?? Do you think they may have meant the French island of St. Barts instead? CaribDigita 20:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Changed the article 2 Status aparte (?) 3 Border check 4 Independence? 5 Columbus legend 6 November 11 or March 23 1648? 7 This article needs to be spilt 8 Recommended car rental 9 Only Non-European European land border? 10 What? 11 Tourist information

[edit] Changed the article

Since it seemed upon closer inspection that the article had been "trashed" on July 30th 2004 by 66.185.84.208, I restored it to the form it had on June the 27th 2004.

I wonder if the person who wrote it thought he was right or just wanted to "trash"....

--Konstantin 15:17, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Status aparte (?)

According to my research, the population Sint Maarten voted for a status aparte in the Kingdom of the Netherlands in a referendum in 2000, which was to be granted and implemented in 2002 - but I haven't found anything stating that this status had been granted, and I assume it hasn't, since the flag of the Netherlands Antilles still features five stars, but I haven't found any information on why this status aparte wasn't granted yet, either. Anyone with more in-depth knowledge willing to elaborate? Nightstallion 11:45, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It sounds to me (conjecture!) like nothing will be implemented until all five islands have voted. See http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2004/11/27/future.htm.

Gruepig 03:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- This looks like Saint Maarten already is using a new flag already??? (1)Caribbean Tourism Org. Note the flag Saint Maarten put on their tourism page.

Also according to their minister when they were visiting Saint Kitts. They claimed they've separated already??? (2) Article: St Maarten government looks at St Kitts-Nevis education system. In the second paragraph it's stated "The main purpose of the visit is to gather first hand information for the creation of the best suited Ministry of Education for St. Maarten following a successful separation from the Netherlands Antilles, in which it is a part of with Saba, St. Eustatius, Curacao and Bonaire." Anybody able to shed more info about this? CaribDigita 07:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is a recent article on this topic: http://news.caribseek.com/Sint_Maarten/The_Daily_Herald/article_19879.shtml The upshot is that St. Maarten has been in the process of creating their separate-country framework and that seems to be wrapping up. RB McLeroy 16:22, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Border check

The border between the two is marked on maps. Is there any border check for crossing the border? — Instantnood 18:18, Feb 2 2005 (UTC)

Not usually. When I was there about a year ago, there were signs much like you'd see when crossing state lines in the U.S., but the border was not manned. In rare instances (such as after hurricanes), there are border checks.

Gruepig 03:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I can verify; was there August 2005 and the only sign you were crossing from one side to the other was the state of road (dis)repair, signs, and the border marker. RB McLeroy 16:22, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

An interesting point, until Jan.1, 2006, was that a U.S. or Canadian citizen (and no doubt others) could enter Sint Maarten (Dutch Territory, SXM Airport or by sea) with only a Birth Certificate and a photo I.D., but needed a Passport to enter Saint-Martin (French possession, by sea or the small Grand Casse airport). Now, new international agreements require a passport for both. However, as discussed above, no passport or document is required to travel to either side of the island. TeeEmEll 06:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This would be consistant with the Schengen Agreement, no? - Eric 09:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Both parts of the islands are excluded from the Schengen Agreement. (58.188.97.134 09:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Independence?

Are you SURE that in 2003 the French side, i.e., St Martin, voted for independence? I can find no references to this. This certainly happened to the Dutch side, and to St Barthelemy, but I can find no mention anywhere of it happening to St Martin. If it did happen, was it part of the same referendum that affected St Barthelemy, or what?

The only reference I've been able to find is the last paragraph of http://www.antilles-info-tourisme.com/guadeloupe/histogb.htm. Also, this article suggests that the vote on St Martin was similar to that on St Barths.

Gruepig 03:25, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Saint-Martin (the french part), is to become a collectivités d'outre-mer of France as opposed to being an administrative division of Guadeloupe (itself a départements d'outre-mer), and yes, it's similar to St Barths, and no, it's not independance, all those territories are remaining french. Equendil 05:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Columbus legend

There's debate as to whether Columbus sighted St. Martin (as opposed to Nevis) on November 11, and it seems to be more of a legend than a fact. See, for example, http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/caribbean/saint_martin/history.htm and http://www.stmartin.com/island.htm. It's possible that Columbus sighted St. Martin but did not name the island or that he sighted it on a later date.

Also, to add to the name confusion, I've added the Spanish name of San Martin.

[edit] November 11 or March 23 1648?

The current text read "France and the Netherlands agreed to divide the island on November 11, 1648", but according to the Dutch Wikemedia[1], this is not November 11 but March 23, 1648. - Emvee 28 June 2005 20:38 (UTC)

March 23 is right. Looks like someone got it confused with the date Christopher Columbus landed there. Bollar June 29, 2005 00:46 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs to be spilt

I have a feeling that this article will need to be spilt sooner. Both sides of St. Martin are heading down different roads - Sint Maarten wants status aparte; St.-Martin is becoming a COM. This means each side will have their own unique government, different leaders, etc. This will also require country t/plates and I don't two templates would look nice. - Thanks, Hoshie | ] 02:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely. ^N_i^g_h^t_s^t_a^l_lⁱ_oⁿ ✉ 07:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

So... Will you do it, or should I? —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 12:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I would support the notion of treating the two different political entities in separate articles, but there could still remain a common article for the island as such. Compare with Ireland. -- Domino theory 21:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ireland is a great example. How does this sound? Saint Martin will be about the island, with Saint Martin (island) as a redirect to Saint Martin, Saint-Martin will be about the French side, and Sint Maarten will be about the Dutch side. (BTW, I find it odd that there's only a recent interest in splitting the article; this seems long-overdue.) --Gruepig 23:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I had exactly this kind of partition in mind, yes. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 17:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nightstallion as well. I'm not ready to do any spillting yet until real, solid info comes down the pipe. What we have now is mostly rumor and speculation. To me, that's not a strong base for an article. - Thanks, Hoshie | 00:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sint Maarten is becoming its own nation within the Kingdom as of July 1, 2007; this is all part of the Antilles restructuring. We should have a separate article ready by that time. Radagast 04:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it, why would minor political changes cause a double split of the article ? The island is one as far as history and geography are concerned, subjects such as economy or tourism are going to be awfully similar, even political status is similar, and well, pretty much anything that can be said about Saint Martin as a whole is relevant for both french and dutch parts. If split, there would be a lot of redundant information between Saint Martin (island), Saint-Martin (french), and Sint Maarten (dutch), which is bad, or failing that, short articles that would force the reader to juggle the three entries to extract relevant information, which, in my opinion is equally bad.

Though I think the article could use some reformating, new sections (geography, history, political status and demographics, transportation, culture, tourism, economy, for instance, not necessarily in that order), possibly sub sections where relevant (ie, Political Status and Demographics could have a short introduction, a paragraph or two on information relevant for the island as a whole, then two sub sections for the french and dutch specifics), and it could use a section regarding cooperation between France and Netherland on issues such as border control, police, transportation, defense, etc.

My two euros/guilders Equendil 05:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recommended car rental

I rent a car (on St Martin/Sint Maarten) every couple of weeks and do so without reservations every time. Telling people to book cars before coming is an some car rentail agency editing wikipedia? Anyway, my experience is car rental agencies try to get my business when I show up and cars are available. Maybe article should be changed? tell me what you think. bye.

No one has responded to that post. I will change the content of page. I rented cars on St Martin twice last week, and as always, did so without reservation. Each time $30 for overnight rental. Day long rental is $25. It's very easy to rent a car.

Opalpa 03:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only Non-European European land border?

Would it be correct to say that this island presents the only European land border NOT in Europe? Is the Schengen Agreement in force on Saint Martin? What other possibly interesting consequences are there to this situation? Do French citizens arriving from mainland France even need a passport at the airport (separate "domestic" terminal)? Is the airport shared, with both governments having an immigration authority there? How does this work? - Eric 09:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is the ONLY land border between two European countries outise Euope, but no it is NOT the ONLY European land border with a non-European country not in Europe (e.g. see France-Brazil, France-Surinam, Spain Morocco). Yes Schengen Agreement is in force on Saint Martin, but only on the French side, not the Dutch side. Yes, French citizen arriving at Dutch Sint Maarten have to show passport. If they arrive directly at the French side (e.g. by plane from Guadeloupe or Martinique or St.Barths) they do not need a passport. Same as arriving from Paris to Guadeloupe, passports are not needed, ID card is enough.

Hmm I doubt that showing a French ID-card is not enough when arriving on the Dutch side. Saint-Martin is a part of the Netherlands Antilles, which together with Aruba an The Netherlands forms "The Kingdom of the Netherlands". It is true that neither Aruba nor the Netherlands Antilles are part of the EU, but citizenship is one of the things in the Kingdom of the Netherlands that is governed by the Kingdom itself, so there is no seperate citizenship for Aruba or the Antilles. I think that indeed Aruba an the Netherlands Antilles are NOT part of Schengen, but I think that just like in metropolital Netherlands, French citizens only have to show their ID-cards. Maartenvdbent 13:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually I don't think showing a French ID-card is enough but showing a French passport definitely gets you in without any hassle. Speaking of European land, I met an Italian guy who once lived in Canada and L.A that told me that the reason he choose to live on St. Martin was because of the unique combination of benefits: 1) Being able to legally live on the island because he's an European citizen 2)English Speaking: English is the most spoken language on the island and 3)It's the Caribbean. No other Caribbean island has this combination. Stmaarten (talk • contribs) 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] What?

From the article:it is the smallest inhabited land mass in the world that is divided between two nations (with the possible exception of a small island in Boundary Lake, between the U.S. and Canada and about twenty other islands around the world) Thats like saying France has the worl;ds largest population except for the twenty other countries ahead of it.Maxflight 15:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tourist information

I'm removing the following that was added recently :

"Recently, American tourists have been advised by some news agencies to avoid St. Maartin (the Dutch side) as a tourist destination. There have been a number of attacks on tourists and in some cases, the local police do little about them. At the medical school a girl was beaten and almost raped, and the police did not pursue investigation. Two American tourists (associated with CNN) were heavily beaten with a tire-iron outside of a local club named "Sunset Beach Bar", according to the two tourists because they were homosexuals. The police had no interest to take names of witnesses or hear witness accounts. Please see: ABC News Article on Tourist Safety."

• The whole paragraph is a summary of news stories. Wikipedia is not a news paper. On top of that, articles are not dated so the meaning of "recently" is kind of lost.
• American tourists "advised" by "some" news agencies ? The scope of this is rather limited. Wikipedia is not a travel guide either, what makes this notable exactly ?

Basically, either crime is notably high on the Island or the dutch side specifically, and the article could state so (with actual sources, not anecdoctical stories), or it's not and the whole thing has no place here. Equendil Talk 15:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Not just because I am living on the island. But it's obvious that anyone who will post such nonsense here might have had some bad experience on the island. That's very selfish and inconsiderate. Try using this forum instead: http://www.thedailyherald.com/