Talk:Sand Creek massacre

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Contents 1 Ghost Dance 2 Chivington 3 Anon editor said.. 4 Dog Soldiers 5 Tom Cruise 6 Fort Wise Treaty

[edit] Ghost Dance

--- "line 29 The Cheyenne and Arapahoes danced the ghost dance which invoked the attack. "

I don't think Cheyenne and Arapahoes ever danced the ghost dance. Can we get source? ---

I deleted the Ghost Dance reference since the dates simply don't work.rewinn 21:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chivington

The distinction between the U.S. Army (of which the "U.S. Cavalry" was a branch) and the militias of the various states, Colorado in this case, was a real one--especially during the Indian Wars. U.S. Army troops and, more important, their officers, were drawn from the country as a whole, and their attitudes toward the Indians reflected a broad mix of feelings; militia troops and officers, on the other hand, were drawn from within the various states in which they normally served, and thus reflected more closely the prevailing local attitudes.

In the months preceding the tragedy at Sand Creek, Indians had killed settlers, including women and children; their bodies were displayed in Denver as proof that the Indians were indeed savages who could be dealt with only by force. Sand Creek was the almost inevitable outcome of the use of militia troops under Chivington, a member of the militia himself.

How the local militia came to be at Sand Creek on that fateful day is complicated and not part of this discussion. What happened after they got there, however, can be partially explained--in no case justified--by their local backgrounds.

For the above to be helpful in improving the article, it may be worth going into Chivington's troops & motivations; also those of Evan. According to Dee Brown, they seem to have based their political campaigns on fighting an Indian menace. rewinn 06:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

---

Another song about this is "Banner Year" by Five Iron Frenzy.

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I removed the partial sentence at the end of the piece: "The actual location of the massacre was not definatively nailed until"... Mwanner 01:45, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

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I removed some obscenities and other juvenile comments just now. tstockma 01:24, September 12, 2005

The deliberate killing and mutilation of non-combatant women and children was rightly condemned as an atrocity. However it must be borne in mind that these pratices, and worse, were routine amongst the hostile Indians (and not just against Whites) who apparently saw nothing atrocious or immoral about them, except when practised by Whites upon them. unsigned comment by 25 February 2007 on 194.125.117.90

And your evidence for this extremely broad and unsourced statement would be ... what?

There is no showing that Indians lacked as broad a range of feelings and practices as Europeans, whose history is full of both atrocities and the rejection of atrocities. In any event, it is difficult to see how the above comments would assist in improving the article. rewinn 19:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You ask for sources; See below. I don't know if you agree, but I find it useful to read the alternative viewpoint rather than accept what "everyone knows". Even if one's opinion remains unchanged, it is at least a more considered opinion. As the Romans used to say: "Audi alteram partem" Hear the other side. Best wishes.

Battle At Sand Creek: The Military Perspective by Gregory F. Michno (Author)

unsigned comment at (19:41, 4 March 2007) at 213.202.159.169

Hello and welcome to wikipedia. Let me urge you

• Get a logon. It's free & helps discussion by making it easier for people to recall who they're discussing with
• Sign your Talk page contribs. Just put four tildas (~) at the end & wikimagic does the rest
• I don't know how to respond substantively to your comment. There's no showing that I or any other editor accepts what everyone knows. What wikipedia needs is sources for comment. This particular discussion conflates two issues: whether Indians ever committed atrocities, and whether they "saw nothing atrocious or immoral about them, except when practised by Whites upon them". The former is an unremarkable proposition; it would be remarkable if Indians were one of the few people never to commit atrocities. As to the latter, I very much doubt that there is any factual support; history and biology tells us that all humans very much resent being the object of atrocities. Although it seems likely that Indian-on-Indian atrocitites may not have been complained of to a White court system that would exercise little jurisdiction. rewinn 04:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice, rwinn. You seem to misunderstand my comments. My point is about cultural values, not about individuals.

Chivington's actions were considered, by whites, to be an atrocity because they went beyond what was deemed civilised behaviour, even in the conduct of war. On the other hand, from an Indian point of view, the killing, rape, mutilation and torture of men women and children was a cultural norm, and not viewed as aberrant behaviour, it was simply the way war was waged. No doubt other Indian victims resented being attacked, but this does not mean they viewed these actions as atrocities. In fact, I know of no violence inflicted upon an enemy by Indians which would be considered by other Indians an atrocity. (I would be very interested if someone were to show me otherwise).

Joescallan 18:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anon editor said..

""the massacre in Little Big Man is also based on it." is a mistake as that movie featured an accurate recreation of the second attack on Black Kettle's Cheyennes on the banks of the Washita, 27 November 1868, where Black Kettle actually died at the hands of Custer's 7th."

So I removed the text ", and the massacre in Little Big Man is also based on it" If it is really correct please replace it. Rich Farmbrough 01:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dog Soldiers

I'm removing the link the the Dog Soldier (movie), it has nothing to do with Cheyenne Dog Soldiers... Ralph 9 Jan 2006

agreed. There really should be a wikipedia article about the historical Dog Soldiers but I lack sources. Anybody care to take it up? rewinn 19:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Cruise

In the book The Last Samurai it states The Battle of Washita River. I'll look up the page number for eveyone so we can put this to rest.--Dm2ortiz 20:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I took out the following lines, since it seems there is some disagreement on them:

In the film The Last Samurai, Tom Cruise's character Captain Nathan Algren had nightmares from his participation at the massacre. stop adding this, that was the "The Battle of Washita River" not Sand Creek!

Does anyone have a reference they can cite one way or the other for this? If it is sand creek, it should go back in the article, but remain out if otherwise. Adagio 16:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

After thinking about it, I don't see how Algren could be having nightmares about Sand Creek. According to the The Last Samurai, it says he was a veteran of the Battle of Gettysburg. Gettysburg was July 1863. It seems unlikely that a soldier could or would be allowed to leave the Army of the Potomac to go to Colorado and join the 1st and 3rd Colorado Cavalry a year later during the civil war. Since the movie "takes place" in 1877, there is plenty of time for him to take part in some other massacre. Without evidence, I think it is best to keep it out. I think I will take it out of the The Last Samurai article too, and redirect any objections from there to here so we can sort it out. --ChristopherM 20:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fort Wise Treaty

I added the name of the treaty signed by Black Kettle and others (Fort Wise Treaty of 1861) and changed it to say that only SOME of the chiefs signed it. My reference: Black Kettle: The Cheyenne Chief Who Sought Peace and Found War, by Thom Hatch (2004). This is my first time editing a wikipedia entry and I think I botched my signature; it seems to appear in the middle of the entry. --Dansato 22:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)