Talk:Shoko Asahara
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[edit] Repetitive appeals for sources
- There are several requests to provide citations for statements and facts mentioned in the article text. I will deal with each of the passages below, but the general answer to unformulated question of the editor who inserted these requests as I understand it is as follows: either the passage is based on materials published by Aum or discovered by researchears or it is widely known in Japan. Passages in question are therefore actually condensed and rephrased articles. I am currently puzzled how to technically fulfill the request. So, I will remove the appeals from the article, but will do my best to provide sources to everything said in it in Talks - be prepared that is lengthy, I will give you translated direct quotes when needed and if some CrimeLibrary author believes otherwise - let him obtain my sources, have them translated and argue with that. Hope this will do. If we put quotations into the article text, they will amount to full article each and there will be about ten. Not possible technically, so I suggest to discuss it here.
Shoko Asahara’s attitude towards religion was not typical for Japanese. While religion does not play a significant role in the lives of ordinary Japanese except in days of religious ceremonies such as funerals and weddings, Mr. Asahara’s goal was to ‘achieve the ultimate enlightenment’, so frequently mentioned in ancient religious scriptures, from the very beginning. He studied seriously and tried various schools, meditations and approaches to find the way that is really effective. Mr Asahara’s tenacity is, perhaps, most clearly illustrated by his pursuit of Agonshu.[citation needed]
- Asahara told the story of his involvement with Agonshu himself many times, as evidenced by the transcripst of his speeches, also this is widely known and references may be found in Japanese newspapers at least. If anyone doubts in anything specific, please request a fuller answer.
In the early 1980s, Shoko Asahara joined Agonshu, a Buddhist religious group. The most serious of its religious practices was the practice of 1000 consecutive days of offerings. Those who offered money daily throughout this period were promised enlightenment. Despite the financial hardships, he completed the course. The enlightenment never came. He later recalled the story on a number of occasions to his disciples to illustrate the importance of faith: despite serious doubts regarding the effectiveness of practice and the religious organization itself, he continued to the very last day.[citation needed]
- This is as close to Asahara's actual words as it gets, translated personally by me. See the collection of Asahara lections, please let me know if you need the page number and book name (I guess I could find it).
Several years passed and Asahara’s efforts started to bring results. He continued to live in a small one-room apartment in Tokyo’s Shibuya district with his wife and two daughters. It was during that period that he negotiated the support of his first, most loyal, disciples.
He started teaching them yoga. Financial hardship continued to constrain his efforts, as Shoko Asahara refused to accept any payment for his coaching, as this was contradictory with regard to religious principles - that only those who have achieved enlightenment can accept material offerings.[citation needed]
- Again, this is well known. Not sure if the material offerings detail can be found anywhere else, that's what these early disciples said, translated and summarized by memory, please let me know if you need to see any of the stories translated and I will try to translate for you. Warning: as this was be words of those disciples, it will be highly biased pro-Asahara material (because what was said was said before the trials, around 1989 i believe). I stripped the compliments and religious stuff out and boiled it down to basic facts. There are many similar recollections saying basically the same. The phenomena of Asahara's persuasive powers was discussed many times in Japan, Bit Takeshi - the famous comedian and film director - also interviewed him twice on television and praised him immediately during the air, students attending meetings in universities Asahara visited etc... If something else is of interest, please kindly request.
People who knew Asahara during this period characterize him as a understanding, kind and compassionate person. One of them remembers that during one of her visits the foodstock of Mr Asahara’s family was completely used up and all that was left were some carrots. To motivate the hungry disciples that had not had their dinners to stay and train a little longer, he cooked a carrot salad. The fresh carrots went to disciples, while the rotten ones, unfit for the dish, he ate himself, smiling. Having heard about the unusual yoga teacher, friends of his disciples also started attending the classes.[citation needed]
- Again, it is well-know how Aum was started. As to carrots, see above again (these are rephrased direct quotations except the words "understanding", "unusual" etc - there are unaltered). I tried to leave the disciple's POV out by stipping their religious explanations since I believe the human factor played the most important role. This passage answers the questions like "why these people, who recently graduated from elite universities, followed a bling and poor uneducated man living in some one-room remote apartment". These are questions that dominated the discussions on roots and origins of Aum in Japanese media for years. Basic answer: charisma. But here I demonstraded an example of charisma. Please request if you want anything translated.
I am thinking: this is perhaps not only the matter of sources, but the matter of credibility of sources as well as accuracy of reproduction and correctness of conclusion, an interesting separate subject in itself. We could discuss this as well (in a separate subtopic) - as similar questions will pop up in readers's minds most likely again in the future and this was people could get to 'talks' and read what already been discussed - if it becomes too lengthy, earlier parts will be archived, but still accessible (is that right?). Feel free to start.
Why is this page here? Shouldn't this be at "Shoko Asahara"? WhisperToMe 21:47, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It appear that a member of Aum Shinrikyo/Aleph has joined in. Welcome :D. FWBOarticle 06:37, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks. Not a member though, but I've been about ten years ago. Added two rare pictures from my collection, will add same with better qualify if the CD survived. FWBOarticle: Aum/Aleph members appear to speak Japanese only (see the official site).
- I am in doubt whether to remove the shot with Dalai Lama... If anyone is offended, feel free to remove.
I removed this "Many of the accusations vanished in the course of a trial for lack of factual base." because Asahara was convicted on all thirteen counts. WhisperToMe 00:27, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, there were more accusations than 13 and these were dropped. I will check it more thoroughly. ExitControl 18:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Checked. There were 17 counts, of which 4 were dropped in the course of the trial.ExitControl
Modified the following passage (modified or removed parts are in italic, explanation follows):
On March 20, 1995, Aum attacked the Tokyo Subway System with the nerve gas sarin. Twelve commuters died, and thousands more suffered a range of effects. After finding sufficient evidence, authorities accused Aum Shinrikyo in the attack, as well as in a number smaller-scale incidents. Several Aum followers admitted that they perpetrated these attacks, and one former doctor, who was a member of the cult, admitted his guilt and begged for forgiveness. He also denounced Asahara as the ultimate guilty party. (I will leave the notion that authorities accused a number of followers - not Aum Shinrikyo as organization - but will remove the doctor passage, as there is no point to focusing on that particular doctor since many of the followers gave similar testimonies). Tens of disciples were arrested, Aum’s facilities were raided and soon the court issued an order for Shoko Asahara’s arrest. He was discovered in a very small completely isolated room of the building belonging to Aum, supposedly (will remove "supposedly") meditating.
Shoko Asahara is currently imprisoned and faces 27 murder counts in 13 separate indictments. The prosecution argued that Asahara gave orders to attack the Tokyo Subway in order to seize the political government and become a king of Japan. The tensimony (syntax error) of former Aum members who were decent enough to repent (will remove as this is noted below already) confirmed these accusations. The prosecution also accused him of masterminding the Matsumoto incident and the Sakamoto family murder. As some of the disciples testified against Asahara, he was found guilty and sentenced to death on February 27, 2004. Several psychological experts have also done studies of the Aum cult and shown that Asahara had absolute control over his followers by brainwashing them. (this was actually the defense line of some of the accused, i.e. to argue that since Asahara "had absolute control", they couldn't distinguish good from evil and were "blindly following orders". Will remove as insignificant, especially the brainwashing theory is largely discredited. I we are to report this, I suggest to start a separate topic on Shoko Asahara trials, as amount of relevant information is quite large and there is no sense to post a portion of it here, while omitting other important details. I believe we currently have the most important basic facts here). ExitControl 18:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The poor childhood is OK, but according to Crime Library, Matsumoto was not that poor in the 80's. He had a firm Aum Association of Mountain Wizards, which was supposedly prospering quite well. There are other discrepancies. I don't know which version is right, though, so I don't touch anything.
- Filip Hracek, 11 Dec 2004
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- The last line says that the death penalty was carried out in 2004. This is incorrect. Shoko Asahara is still alive in a Japanese jail. I have altered this line to reflect the fact that he was sentenced to death on the 27th of February 2004.
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- For lack of time will remove everygthing outright absurdous and will replace the CrimeLibrary link with something adequate. Also, the death sentence COULD NOT BE "CARRIED OUT" if the person is still alive, what an absurdity. Removed for common sence violation. - ExitControl
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Should the first sentence in the article still say "alleged mass murderer"? He was convicted of it, after all, so there shouldn't be anything alleged about it. Anyone? Tennotsukai 23:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- Please feel free to change the text and update whatever latest information exists. Pavel Vozenilek 02:05, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
This article appears to be heavily biased. It presents a man many describe as a megalomanic or sociopath as close to a saint. A more critical approach would be appropriate given the fact that he masterminded a mass-murder, as well as murders of several individuals.
- We are here not to publicize our opinions and judgements, but to provide facts. Yes, you are not the first to notice that Asahara didn't make an impression of a mass murderer. In fact, to those he personally met he made an impression of a very kind and compassionate person (as I believe is noted in the article). Please note that most of the characteristics apeared after the 1995 sarin attack, so it is understandable that people made their judgement post-factum.
[edit] CrimeLibrary Link
Removed the CrimeLibrary Link. Reason: heavy bias. It portrays Asahara as greedy and dishonest megalomaniac. Will provide examples later.
- I put it back. It actually talks about Shoko Asahara (unlike other links there) and it provides viewpoint of one side. Pavel Vozenilek 04:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
- Pavel, I suspect that the reasons of such persistence in restoration of this particular like relate to website talking BAD about Shoko Asahara as they aren't very accurate or informative, this is the real problem, not Anti-Asahara POV, bad language or excessive simplicity of writing. Restoring it back is IMO not NPOV, but rather imposing own POV (yours). OK, I will find more informative website and replace, hope you will agree with the change since anti-Asahara POV will most likely remain largely in place :-)
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- I deleted opinion quoted after link: (biased against Asahara). The readers will form their own opinion after reading the article. If there are other articles or websites with a different viewpoint, please post them, but do not delete the existing ones.
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- And I deleted the link. Don't know about viewpoints, but the language just doesn't seem to be OK for me. Anyone please find some article on Asahara not offensive to this degree language-wise and not coming from some counter-cult Christian or whatever 'ministry' or something? Surely, there must be some scholarly publication?
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[edit] Appeals for sources
Removed; reason - this was just copied from 'Aum Shinrikyo' article by me (I stripped the data unrelevant to Asahara the person and left some information on Aum Shinrikyo as the organization he founded). I suggest to debate any doubtful passages here to see if we could rephrase or make the article more informative some other way.
