Talk:The Magic Flute

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Contents 1 Character list 2 Other sites 3 Title 4 Another audio example 5 Requested move 5.1 Voting 5.2 Discussion 6 Controversies 7 f3??? 8 Where was the premiere? 9 Synopsis 10 Voice Type 11 Anecdotes in Noted Arias 12 Salieri 13 Queen of the Night and Iolanthe 14 The Tempest - Relevance? 15 O zittre nicht

[edit] Character list

I have listed the characters here, but the voice types in the score I got the characteras from seem a bit odd. For example I doubt that the third lady is actually a soprano (due to the low nature of the role). So, I consolted another score (also German) http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/vaa0618/large/index.html and found the same labels. Perhaps this is a German system that I am not farmiliar with. Either way, I think that they SHOULD be labled the way they are cast in America. Anyone with a good idea of what that would be is welcome to do that.

Also, perhaps the characters should be listed in English with the German in ( ) insted of the way i have done it, as this is a English encyclopedia.

During Mozart's time, the notion of a mezzo-soprano or contralto had not yet developed. All female singers were called sopranos. I will update to typical casting. DrG 21:29, 2005 August 16 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch Captbaritone

[edit] Other sites

Does anyone konw of any other sites with analysis of the Magic Flute (Die Zauberflote)

[edit] Title

Wikipedia:Naming conventions says, "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." In my experience, English speakers are more likely to speak of "The Magic Flute" than "Die Zauberflöte". Shouldn't the page be at the common English title? (See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).)

Unless anyone objects in the next day or so, I think I'll move the page to The Magic Flute. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Done. I've also taken care of the redirects in the main namespace. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

You have posted your question on the 13. November 2005, and waited only for 1 day and then moved the page. While it is good that you asked first, I think more time is in order to discuss this serious topic first. Or at least a moving tab with discussion should have been posted. Gryffindor 15:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I apologize if my move was premature. I just thought I was being bold and acting in accordance with the naming conventions. Is there a WikiProject that covers this sort of topic, to which we might appeal to find the best solution? Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't expect to have all of you with me on this one, but I for one would rather see a change of the naming conventions. That would, as I see it, be completely in line with how I recognize Wikipedia as always being very "correct". By that I mean presenting well thought-through formulations of matters rather than just resigning to lazy traditions. For example, I don't expect Wikipedia to use "Rollerblade" when it really intends to say "Inline skate". Bromskloss 20:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another audio example

I'm sad to say that the current audio example (Der Hölle Rache) does not reach very high standards. Having one would still be nice, though. Are there perhaps another one we can use? Bromskloss 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The current audio example is terrible. Dave Foster 20:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I just listened to both linked files. The first is from a live performance by Sandra Partridge (Thailand, 2006). The second version, sung a capella by Rachel Smith is not very good at all. I've listened to many much better recordings on the web. My current "favorites" are those by Diana Damrau and Sumi Jo, available at youtube.com (and another by Sumi Jo on a CD).AdderUser 14:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

I notice that the plot summary avoids certain controversial aspects of the opera: the strong hostility of Sarastro's temple to women, the existence of slavery in the temple, and the fact that Monostatos is black and feels like a racial outcast. Giving these an appropriate treatment is tricky. The plot summary probably isn't the place to deal with them. Perhaps someone with knowledge of published works addressing these issues might add a section on them? I suppose I could, but someone with more specialized knowledge could do a better job. GMcGath 19:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] f3???

"Many of the melodies are highly familiar, and include the Papageno/Papagena duet and the coloratura aria, "Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen" ("The vengeance of Hell boils in my heart"), often referred to as the "Queen of the Night" aria, which reaches a high f3."

I'm not a singer, so I don't know the exact nomenclature they use with regard to pitches. But shouldn't it be f7, not f3. The system I'm used to is middle C being c4 (though I know that some in the electronic world label it as c3 or something). But i've never heard of it being called c0 before, which would indeed make Der Hölle reach an f3. Is this a system only sopranos use? Am I even making sense?? Crabbyass 16:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That may be a cross between two different pitch nomenclatures. Elsewhere in the article I referred to it as f''', which is a bit tricky to write since you have to enclose it in a "nowiki" tag to prevent it from being interpreted as markup. I believe the notation system in which the C below the bass clef is capital C, the one in the bass clef is lower-case c, and you add a hashmark for each octave above that, is preferred in classical music. GMcGath 17:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone just changed it to "F6". With a little research, I determined that this person was using Scientific pitch notation. That seems no better or worse than the alternatives, so I added a link to the entry to nail down what it means. GMcGath 16:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where was the premiere?

The article currently says: "It premiered in Vienna on September 30, 1791. The premiere was at an out-of-town but not obscure theater."

If the premiere was in Vienna, how could it have been "out-of-town"? --Metropolitan90 02:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Vienna has expanded since 1791. The Globe Theatre was out-of-town too, but it is not misleading to say that Shakespeare put on his plays at London. The name of the theater would be useful though. Septentrionalis 18:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Theater auf der Wieden, and yes, quite some distance from downtown Vienna. Lots of details about the history of the theater in Kurt Honolka's 1990 biography of Schikaneder. The the importance of the out-of-town aspect is comparable to on- or off-Broadway for a modern play opening in New York. TaigaBridge 25 July 2006

[edit] Synopsis

The synopsis puts Papageno's attempted suicide immediately after Pamina's, and before the two helmetted men lead Tamino into the temple. In fact, the Papageno-3 Boys-Papagena scene is after the Trial by Fire and Water, and immediately before the Monostatos/Queen scene.

I am guessing that when the Monostatos/Queen scene is omitted, they also performed the Papageno scene out of order to avoid an extra pair of scene changes and keep all the inside-the-temple scenes in sequence... but that's not what the score says and not how it is performed today. TaigaBridge 25 July 2006

You're right, and I've fixed the sequence. The changes of scene need to be adjusted to match, and I'd need a libretto at hand to do that. GMcGath 16:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voice Type

The paragraph on voice types (fach) introduced by John1987 on October 18 needs either to be rewritten because it suffers from muddled logic and grammar, or removed because it doesn't add anything to the knowledge about this specific work - a similar paragraph about voice types could be inserted into almost every opera. Michael Bednarek 03:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anecdotes in Noted Arias

Does an encylopedia really need anecdotes like the one in Noted Arias about Sarastro by GB Shaw? And if so, shouldn't they be a) sourced; b) correct? Michael Bednarek 00:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salieri

I think hat there should be something about the confusion concerning Salieri, and the story behind him and the Opera.

[edit] Queen of the Night and Iolanthe

I have removed the following statement

In the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta Iolanthe, Sir Arthur Sullivan included a musical homage to the Queen of the Night's aria when introducing the character of the Queen of the Fairies.

Something similar appeared on the Iolanthe page in November 2005, and was removed following discussion on its Talk page[1]. Feel free to put it back here and/or there if there is any evidence to support this claim. --GuillaumeTell 14:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Tempest - Relevance?

Could someone explain the relevance of this addition:
03:00, 27 January 2007 Dpwkbw m (The Tempest)
The Tempest - A century & a half earlier, Shakespeare was dealing with virtuous kingship in The Tempest (c. 1611).
I think it should be deleted. Michael Bednarek 05:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'm a fan of both works, but their connection is remote at best. Delete. Mlouns 06:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Section removed. Michael Bednarek 03:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] O zittre nicht

Not enough space (and a typo) in the edit summary for my reversion of the last change. What I wanted to say was that "zittre" is not a noun (which is capitalised in German) but a verb (which isn't capitalised in German), and that's why it shouldn't have a capital Z. --GuillaumeTell 11:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)