Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 17

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Contents 1 Linking to essays 2 Succession boxes 3 Countering Analytical Propositions 4 three core content policies 5 Wikipedia:Attribution: Merger of Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research 6 Quotations need inline citations or equivalent 7 Suggestion to change criteria for inclusion of self-published sources on WP:RS 8 Proposed change to self-published sources section 9 Usenet posts 10 Conflict between Policy? 11 Note 12 Using all sources to establish an acceptable word usage

[edit] Linking to essays

I wrote an essay pertaining to verifiability and original sources, which can be found at WP:NRSNVNA. Is the "see also" section an appropriate place to link to this essay? If not, where is? Thanks! - Chardish 06:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Since I consider the first sentence to be flat-out wrong, I suggest not linking to it at all. An example of an article that contains no cited reliable sources and yet is acceptable is a list, especially when the items in the list are wikilinks to articles that do contain cited reliable sources. --Gerry Ashton 13:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

An list still requires sources - either those are in the list themselves or in the wikilinks to articles that have sources that explain why they're in the list. Unsourced lists are not aceeptable. Notability requirements aside, I can't create a list of "Politicians frequently seen wearing striped ties" without sources that would back up "Senator so-and-so always wears a striped tie." But this is beside the point, and outside the scope of this talk page. - Chardish 21:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Gerry, some editors believe that lists of that type should not be admitted to Wikipedia (cats are better) and it is of course policy that lists of foos should be completely sourced.Grace Note 05:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that linking to an essay that propounds a theory that is far from having consensus (that unsourced articles should be deleted) from a policy page is an appropriate action. JulesH 17:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession boxes

I would like comments on [1]. Some of the forms of usage, I cannot verify and now I'm being told that we don't need verification of the forms as it's a matter of "Style". I cannot agree with that position and I'd like others to weigh in on the Talk board there about whether I'm right or wrong. Wjhonson 20:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Countering Analytical Propositions

I'm curious about how other members of the wikipedia community feel about a lack of citation for the last sentence of the following paragraph of a hypothetical article:

The poll asked respondents whether they agree that people should exercise 5 minutes per day.[CITATION]. Based on 51% of respondents answering this question in the affirmative, the poll concluded that 51% of respondents agree that people should jog 5 minutes per day. [CITATION]. ABC organization criticizes this conclusion, arguing that not all people who agree with the need for five minutes of daily exercise agree that jogging is a good method of exercise. [CITATION]. Similarly, it is possible that more than 51% of respondents support daily exercise, as those who answered the poll question negatively might have done so because they believe more than 5 minutes of exercise is needed per day. [NO CITATION].

I believe that no citation is needed in the last sentence. See my reasoning at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Roe_v._Wade#JPerkins. Jperkins683 02:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The last sentence is a novel synthesis, and if not supported by a citation from a reliable source, is pure speculation, i.e., original research. -- Donald Albury 13:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The last sentence is indeed speculation. --Gerry Ashton 16:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Definitely needs a citation. Without a citation the last sentence is a inference based upon facts not in evidence. Cheers. L0b0t 22:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] three core content policies

The box (template) on the right has 5 content policies WP:NOT and WP:BLP in addition to the three agreed upon. I suggest either changing three to five in the text or editing the template so the three are somewhat seprated from the other two. The current 'three in text, five in the template' is confusing and needs to be fixed one way or another.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Attribution: Merger of Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research

Wikipedia:Attribution, a proposal to subsume and replace Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, is ready to be implemented. Please review the document and discuss any problems on the talk page. —Centrx→talk • 23:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations need inline citations or equivalent

In a recent edit Centrx removed the phrase "for quotaions" from the introduction. This means that the policy no longer mentions any particular requirement for providing sources for quotations. Since standard scholarly practice is to provide an inline citation for quotations, or equivalent prose information, I believe the phrase should be restored, or the policy otherwise modified to show that quotations must be attributed. --Gerry Ashton 19:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I would agree, unless someone can come up with a case where it would be a bad idea to reference a quotation; I can't think of any myself. Trebor 22:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

All non-trivial should have sources, quotations are not so special that the lack of a cited source means the quotation is liable to be summarily removed, which is the meaning of the sentence it was taken out of. If you want to add things about it somewhere else, that's probably okay, but there is nothing specially requiring greater verifiability in quotations, they should be just as verifiable as all other information. —Centrx→talk • 01:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

All quotations must be attributed to someone, otherwise they are not a quote. I would probably remove a quote not properly attributed on sight. And it would be incumbent on you to cite it before restoring it. This is especially true for quotes from living persons. Dhaluza 01:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

And I remove non-quotes for lack of attribution, as well. So? -- Donald Albury 01:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I don't understand Centrx's point. But direct quotes absolutely do need extra attribution. There is no need for a cite on every sentence of common knowledge, one overall cite is enough. But a direct quote needs direct attribution. Dhaluza 01:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Trivial common knowledge versus some substantial information is a different issue. Any non-trivial information would need attribution just as much as a quote, which is what the page already says. —Centrx→talk • 01:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) I have restored the requirement to provide attribution for quotations. I have tried to make the wording similar to WP:ATT. --Gerry Ashton 02:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You should address the arguments above first. —Centrx→talk • 05:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Very well. A number of editors seem to agree that a quotation that lacks an inline citation or prose equivalent may be deleted on sight. Non-trivial information also needs attribution, but not necessarily an inline citation. For example, if an article said the length of a half-wave dipole radio antenna is 468 divided by the frequency in megahertz, and had in the reference section both The ARRL Antenna Book and The 1990 ARRL Handbook for the Radio Amateur, that would be adequate attribution, since it wouldn't be hard to locate the information; those books have good indices. However, if an article contained a statement that was likely to be challenged, the statement should have its own inline citation.

Thus, statements likely to be challenged and quotations share the attribute that both should have inline citations. --Gerry Ashton 05:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

A further comment: given an alleged fact and a list of references, in many cases it isn't too hard to guess which source(s) will contain the fact, and find the fact by using an index. In general, it would usually be much more difficult to guess which source might contain a quotation, or to use an index to locate the quotation. Perhaps that is why scholars insist on inline citations for quotes. --Gerry Ashton 06:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The only difference between a quote and other use of sources is that a quote is verbatim. All the quote marks or block quote indentation show is that the material is taken verbatim from the source. If material is not quoted verbatim but is paraphrased or incorporated with material from other sources, it still needs to be cited from reliable sources just as much as a quotation. The requirement for sourcing a quote is no higher than for sourcing material that is not quoted. Things might be different out in the real world, but this is Wikipedia, and we need to be sourcing everything, whether or not it is in the form of a quote. -- Donald Albury 13:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

A quote needs to be attributable to its particular source, so the quote needs it's citation in closer proximity. Dhaluza 01:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If a passage in an article is neither a paraphrase of one particular source, nor a quotation from a source, but rather a summary of the consensus of most of the sources, an inline citation is not required; it is sufficient to lists the sources in a general reference list. Of course, readers can't tell the difference between this acceptable situation, and the improper situation where a specific source has been paraphrased without inline citation, unless the reader reads the sources.

Also, Wikipedia requires inline citations for statements that have been, or are likely to be, challenged. Scholarly practice requires inline citations for quotations, even if it is very unlikely that they will be challenged. --Gerry Ashton 01:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion to change criteria for inclusion of self-published sources on WP:RS

Hello, on Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Self-published_sources:_Can_we_simplify_this.3F, I suggested changing the criteria for inclusion of self-published sources to something simpler, and, in my opinion, more to the point. Anyways, since WP:V and WP:ATT discuss this and say what WP:RS currently says on the subject, and policy overrides guideline, your input on this would be wecome. Thanks!

— Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 18:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Cross-posting to WT:ATT.

[edit] Proposed change to self-published sources section

I'd like to suggest a change to this paragraph:

"Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so."

I would like to do two things:

(a) remove "or a well-known professional journalist." I have seen this being (as I see it) abused a few times recently; lots of professional journalists are now setting up blogs and publishing material there that their newspapers might not be willing to publish. Allowing editors to copy that material arguably puts us at risk in the same way the newspapers might be put at risk. I suggest we restrict the use to "well known, professional researcher in a relevant field" — any journalist that fits that description can then be used, even on his or her blog.

(b) add to the end: "If a third-party source has published the same or very similar material, that source should be used in preference to the blog." That is, if the same or very similar material is found both on an acceptable blog and in a reliable third-party source, the blog should not be used.

Any thoughts? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

If two acceptable sources, one from a reputable publisher and the other self-published, are available, I would cite the reputable publisher version, unless access to the reputable publisher version costs money and the self-published version is free, in which case I would cite both. --Gerry Ashton 21:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with (a) in particular, it's going in the wrong direction from what we should be looking toward. --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Those changes sound good to me. Friday (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd strongly disagree with (a). Journalists sites are a useful source of material, and they are, as a general rule, fairly responsible about what they include in them. I've never heard a journalist referred to as a 'researcher' (however much research is part of their job, it's not a common word that's used to refer to them). I do, however, still propose either changing 'researcher' to 'notable expert' or adding it as an additional option. This change might obviate the need for journalists to be included -- the most important journalists would usually be considered notable experts in their field, I think. Regarding (b), I agree with Gerry Ashton's point: if the third-party source is one that isn't freely accessible, both should be included. Otherwise, this seems pretty much common sense. JulesH 23:16, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion moved to WT:A. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usenet posts

...self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources... this line used to also mention Usenet postings (and by extension postings to many online chat rooms and forums). Was there a reason why these were removed? I know they are still mentioned at WP:RS as being unreliable. As that guideline is essentially a sub-page of this Policy, I want to make sure we are being consistent between the two. Is there a consensus here that Usenet postings (and their ilk) are acceptable, or were they simply left out during a recent revision? Blueboar 19:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

There's certainly still consensus at WP:ATT that they aren't, and I for one don't generally support their use. I'd suggest adding them back in. JulesH 23:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict between Policy?

I gather that WP:ATT is now considered Policy... a merging of WP:V and WP:NOR. I have no problem with this, but I do have a concern with how this is being done. At the moment all three Policies are up and running... and this is going to lead to confusion and argument. The three policies do not completely agree with each other (or to put it more exactly, they agree with each other in surface substance, but they differ in greatly in tone and emphysis). This is especially noticable in the area of reliability of sources (especially Self-published sources - a frequent area of controversy) and how they are dealt with. Look at them side by side: WP:V#Sources, WP:NOR#Sources, WP:ATT#Reliable_sources. As a frequent contributer at WP:RS... a guideline that is supposed to help explain this particular aspect of Policy... I am seeing this conflict of tone writ large. Many of the questions we are asked involve parsing Policy statements and intent. Those of us at WP:RS agree that we need to conform what is said there to what is stated in Policy, but right now there is confusion as to which policy we should conform to. I would therefore request that, if WP:ATT is indeed confirmed as Policy, we redirect WP:V and WP:NOR to that page. If not, please move WP:ATT back to "proposed" status until the community can reach consensus. I don't care which, but we need clarity and not confusion. I have posted this request at the Village Pump Policy Page as well. Thank you. Blueboar 15:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• I will be WP:BOLD. :) --EngineerScotty 18:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note

• Hi folks, changes like this are not made by a small sub-set of editors working on a single obscure talk page. Reverted. Dan100 (Talk) 10:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • No, but changes like this are made by a huge amount of editors collaborating on a heavily edited talk page that was advertised all over the wiki. Check Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Attribution and Wikipedia talk:Attribution and its twelve archive pages to see how "obscure" this is. >Radiant< 10:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Using all sources to establish an acceptable word usage

self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

• You cannot prove Wright brothers invented airplane using self-published materials.
• You can show the term "Wright brothers" has been used zillion and zillion times by all kinds of sources to refer Orville Wright (August 19, 1871–January 30, 1948) and Wilbur Wright (April 16, 1867–May 30, 1912) of the U.S.

You can establish an acceptable terminology of a thing or an idea by counting relevant and real (not fabricated) usages regardless of source type. If most suppliers call this item a "monkey wrench," it is a monkey wrench. If most scholar call this man call that man Leonardo, we may avoid calling him Da Vinci.

Some people simply do not know how to research. -- Toytoy 16:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)