Talk:Feral cat
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[edit] Why Define The Feral Cat?
- I started this page to define feral cats and to try give an understanding of how we humans have, once again, impacted a species and forced it into an unnatural state that, ironically, negatively impacts us as well as other species. Feral cats, quite different from wild cats, which become are more and more rare each day as their natural habitat declines, are our creation, as is their misery. This page isn't a forum for opinions...just information. Be sure your facts are correct and your sources are worth quoting!
CTCatVet 15 Oct 2005
- Akin to my complaints on the Cat page, this page is very Americentric, or at the very elast urban-centric. --ZayZayEM 14:36, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I already had this page in my watchlist to get round to, for the purposes of expanding the generalised statements about the damage ferla cats do around the world to wildlife. Cat's are a real conservation issue in smaller islands and places like Australia, even in the US they do real damage to bird popultaions. The subject of introduced species removal, be it rat or cat or rabbit, is highly political, unfortunately, and needs careful wording.sunbird 16:11, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- "many celebrities campaign to encourage people to spay and neuter their pets, including Bob Barker." This would imply that Bob Barker is a pet and should be neutered. Perhaps the author meant "many celebrities, including Bob Barker, campaign to encourage people to spay and neuter their pets" User:jhbadger Jan 23 2005
[edit] Pathetic and Unadoptable
Blackcats, I had added those words and you deleted them, saying they were not true and emotive rather than a NPOV.
Actually, they are true. Pathetic means evoking tenderness, sympathy, pity or sorrow. Unadoptable is self-explanatory. The condition of feral cats is pathethic. And no feral cat over the age of about twelve weeks is adoptable because they cannot be socialized (or tamed or civilizied or some other similiar word). I know because I cleaned out two feral cat colonies, rescuing and finding home for 21 kittens. Two of the little buggers live here with me and my family. They were both less than nine weeks old but they are noticably different in attitude and temperament than cats raised in captivity.
That's when I did all the research and talked to concerned humans and vets, etc. about the issue.
As for NPOV, I'll admit the word "pathetic" is emotive and subjective but unadoptable isn't. I think it, at least, needs to go back in. I'll await to hear from you before editing again. Johnwhunt 23:32, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hey Johnwhunt, sorry if I got a little over-zealous with the editing there. I went ahead and added back in the unadoptable part - slightly qualified - since there's always exceptions and because in rural and low-density urban areas the line between feral and non-feral domestic cats is sometimes a little blurry...
I also added back in about how they evoke strong emotions in animal lovers.
Hopefully this will work for everyone - if not then feel free to edit some more :)
--Blackcats 23:32, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Have a good day. Johnwhunt 00:57, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Legal status of feral cats
Is it worth mentioning somewhere in the article the recent public debate in Wisconsin on listing un-collared cats as unprotected, thus making hunting/killing them legal? A search on Google News shows a lot of articles on the topic. It looks like it is not a done deal so to speak so I am not sure if it merits inclusion here, but i think it is also an issue in several other states or the law may be vague. Either way we might think about including a paragraph or small section on the legal status of feral cats in different jurisdictions.
[edit] A Question...Feral Cats & Evolution
This may be a unique question due to my fascination with evolution... but have there ever been any studies or research done on the evolution of feral cats or other feral animals? While I understand that evolution can take millions of years, small changes or adaptations can be brought about in only a few generations of the genes already exist... (for example, that thing about the moths changing color in england during the industrial revolution). Are there any feral cat colonies that have been around long enough to show a preference for cats with certain traits to survive and reproduce (before they started becoming neutered)? Looking at all of the different breeds of domesticated dogs, it doesn't seem like a streach to imagine that survival of the fittest, and not just breeding of the prettiest, can bring about noticeable changes in perhaps a few hundred years. Any thoughts?
- Probably somewhat. Some breeds of cats and dogs would likely not last long in the wild, so they would disappear imedietly. I'm guessing at least that has happened. --Kalmia 04:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutral Point Of View (NPOV)?
I removed this:
It has been suggested by individuals without environmental science backgrounds that feral cats should simply be hunted to immediately reduce the feral cat problem. Radical specicide, especially when more animals are abandoned each day, is never a prudent long-term answer to any animal-human problem; the solution is more responsible husbandry of the domestic cat by the species that initially started the problem.
That's as neutral as it gets...we're talking killing here...(CTCatVet)
from the main article, because of NPOV concerns. There may be a kernel of truth to this statement, but it needs to be fleshed out in a more neutral manner. Ideally, this would also include the POV of the opposing side, which seems to have some valid points as well. Unfortunately, I know little about the issue, so I can only exhort others who do to hammer out some compromise before putting this back.
(forgot to include my stamp: --greenmoss 9 July 2005 02:47 (UTC))
I always thought it was odd that some people's idea of compassion for animals is death. I'm no card-carrying member of PETA, but I think hunting wild cats seems cruel. I might change my mind if they actually eat them... (Mokru) 3 Oct. 2006
[edit] In Australia
Although trap neuter and return programs such as those in the United States are not prevalent in Australia, they are now being introduced in some urban and suburban areas. In Adelaide, the "C.A.T.S." program has had great success to date. More recently, such programs have been introduced in Sydney by the "World League for Protection of Animals". With great success? How does one define success in such circumstances? (And are neutered animals somehow magically incapable of predating on native birds and marsupials?) Sabine's Sunbird 02:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this page forgets to talk about the very much negative impacts of feral cats in our natural environment. In Australia they are a problem which must be dealt with as native species such as bilby, numbat and mala are being hunted to near extinction. This page is very much biased and must at least say so at the top of this page. Moran
- Ailurophobes write a lot of stuff along these lines but I've yet to see any of them explain coherently why numbats and malas are better than cats and therefore cats should be shot to stop them killing numbats. :-)
- Saying that cats aren't part of the ecosystem and bilbawhatsits are is a red herring. They may not have been part of the ecosystem, but they are now. Which ecosystem was better is a subjective and occasionally highly silly value judgement. Either way we're not going to be able to correct one ecological intervention (introducing cats) by committing another (having them massacred).
- The only real complaint I can see is that cats kill songbirds, which at least make pretty noises. But then, if you can fly, and you get killed by something that can't, I say it's Darwin 1, you nil. --Last Malthusian 12:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Cats are no better than numbats and malas or any other species, at least not from a biologist's or environmentalist's point of view. Indeed, no species is better or worse than any other, in that sense. The difference is that some species are endangered, while others aren't. In the case of species like cats, foxes, rabbits and others, who are introduced into a new habitat and prove to be too much a competition for some of the local species and so eventually drive them to near extinction, the point is that there are too many of the introduced threat and too few of the threatened animals; in which case, guess who it makes sense to be worried about, you smart ass.
"I say it's Darwin 1, you nil." Oh, wow, Darwinism with a cowboy hat and spurs. I can see this was a mature debate from the outset. Stassa 21:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know this isn't the place for debate, so please reply to my talk page. But seriously, if we protect a species, aren't we disrupting evolution? Applejuicefool 20:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Euthanasia"
"The wholesale removal of feral colonies by euthanasia is rarely effective, since new individuals move into the areas left by the removed animals almost immediately, and the blanket euthanasia of stray and feral cats has proven ineffective in controlling stray and feral overpopulation."
What does euthanasia mean in that sense? No matter how miserable most feral cats' lives are, killing every single one of them stretches the definition of 'merciful' beyond all normal credibility, and the phrase 'Removal by euthanasia' seems euphemistic in the extreme (must... not... Godwin...) Of course, I could just have got the wrong end of the stick, since the article doesn't really say whether these programmes involve killing all cats or just the sick ones. If not, maybe replacing 'wholesale removal' by 'wholesale killing' and removing 'by euthanasia' would be better? You can't really get more NPOV than the word 'kill'. --Last Malthusian 12:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] removed cite tag
An image with the following caption feral cat hunting for blackbirds along a freshwater river in Virginia Beach. was tagged with a citation required tag. Given that the entire caption was a description of what the animal was (a feral cat) and what it was doing (hunting blackbirds), information that can only be provided by the photographer, it is very unclear what kind of citation is required or indeed can even be provided. Unless there is a complelling reason to think that the editor in question is lying (and I can't see any) there is no reason for the tag. Sabine's Sunbird talk 16:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sabine. The picture is of a cat looking at the camera. There's nothing to show it doing anything. Is it domestic or wild? (The Common Blackbird is not endangered.) --WikiCats 12:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Like I said there is no citation that could be provided. All we have is the photographer's assertion of what it was doing (and what it is). The caption makes no claim as to the status of blackbirds (given that it was taken in America it'd be the Red-winged Blackbird most likely, also not rare) nor claims that the cat is responsible for the status of the blackbird. It simply states that this cat is hunting blackbirds and is feral. Sabine's Sunbird talk 16:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] citation required
This paragraph also has a tag Unfortunately recent studies published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association indicate that trap-neuter-release programs are not effective in reducing feral cat populations. These programs cannot be effective unless they manage cats on a population--rather than colony--basis, neuter at least 75% of the cats in the population, and carrying capacity is reduced, usually by reducing the amount of food provided to the cats by humans. Because cats are naturally so fecund, a small number of individual cats that remain unsterilized can cause a TNR colony to grow exponentially.[citation needed] The paper I think it comes from is - Paul L. Barrows (2004) "Professional, ethical, and legal dilemmas of trap-neuter-release" Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association November 1, 2004, Vol. 225, No. 9, Pages 1365-1369 - but I can't check as I don't have a vet school library log in. Can someone who does (or with access to a library) please check and if it is cite teh article? Thanks muchly! Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The feral cat has been an ecological disaster in Australia
The feral cat has been an ecological disaster in Australia sounds quite astute but there not one published paper to back it up. --WikiCats 12:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Changed, better? I was wondering if you could provide a cite for Environment Australia reports that “convincing evidence that cats exert a significant effect on native wildlife throughout the [Australian] mainland is lacking.”. Also I have a problem with Evidence for early predation by cats having caused major and widespread declines in native fauna is unsubstantiated and not credible. - unsubstanciated maybe but uncredible is POV. There is scientific debate about the role of cats (which is why I cited Abbott 2002 who certainly agrees with you) but to completely dimiss one point of view is disingineous. Sabine's Sunbird talk 16:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Evidence... is not credible" I thought you would have a problem with that. It comes from your own reference. --WikiCats 05:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
-
- And there are others that say otherwise. To include this statement from one author with one opinion and dismiss any other opinion and statements is POV. The statement would be better if written Evidence for early predation by cats having caused major and widespread declines in native fauna is circumstancial and its credebilty debated. Wikicats, this is not a debating forum and this is not a competition. This is an article and neutrality is to be respected, regardless of our own personal views. Views are divided on this issue and the article should reflect this, and not come down on one side or another. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I put the same request to anyone who makes these anti-cat allegations: "Provide the proof." I am yet to get even one published paper that establishes that cats are a threat to the environment.
Yet I can quote every environmental department in Australia, including the CSIRO, who say that no proof has ever been forthcoming.
I make no claims as to what cats do or what cats don't do. I have simply searched for the truth. I was shocked to find so many eminent persons who said that the allegations were not proven. --WikiCats 06:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- Risbey, Danielle A. ; Calver, Michael C. ; Short, Jeff ; Bradley J. Stuart and Ian W. Wright (2005) The impact of cats and foxes on the small vertebrate fauna of Heirisson Prong, Western Australia. II. A field experiment " Wildlife Research 27(3): 223-235 Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
What was the level of viable habitat in that area? --WikiCats 07:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
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- No idea. Actually, I don't even know what you mean by viable habitat. What has that got to do with the price of eggs, anyway? Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
In the absence of reasonable habitat such claims becomes less reliable. Also the study said that the cat zone was not fox free only that fox numbers were reduced. I've got that study somewhere, I'll have to dig it out.
That study also brings up an an important point. It says that cats can have a large impact on mice. We know that since the introduction of large scale cat control in Australia we have had an explosion of mouse plagues in the wheat fields that they can't bring under control. When I pointed this out to the CEO of Environment Australia he put a disclaimer on their website. In essence it said that the Federal Government was not responsible for actions of the Federal Government.[1] --WikiCats 08:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- The point about knock on effects is dealt with in Robley also, although in the context of fox and cat control. Eliminating an important predator, native or not, will inevidably have knock on effects, hense in a way why people do it, and the effects can be varied, often unexpected and run the gamut from beneficial to detrimental. I say find a paper or reference linking the two (prefereably peer reviewed) and put it in the article. Sabine's Sunbird talk 17:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Feral?
These cats that are called "feral cats" are (according to the Feral cat colony article) dependant on humans for there food. They either steal the food or have it given to them. These cats have never really left home. "Feral" means an animal that has left domestication and gone wild. The offspring of these animals will never have human contact. The worst you could say about these so called city "feral" cats is that they are stray cats. --WikiCats 05:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- Are they any less feral than feral pigeons in the park fed by humans? Having human contact doesn't make an animal not a wild animal, surely? But drawing a distinction between the two might be a good idea. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sabine. Do you think that they are stray cats or not? --WikiCats 06:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Major Places with Feral Cats
This should be "Major Places with Feral Cats, known by the author.
I 'm Greek. There are at least a million of what you call "feral" cats in Athens, most probably two. So is that "minor" or is it just that you had no idea? I guess the latter.
That section has information about what goes on in Australia and the USA, parts of the English-speaking western world, which I imagine must have been more accessible to you. But to completely disregard the rest of the world discredits your article (and the miniscule and misinformed reference to Rome is risible as an attempt to hide the fact that you don't know about the rest of the world, btw).
My suggestion is that you remove the section altogether, or just rename it into something more accurate. Perhaps, break it down into two distinct sections, "Feral Cats in the USA" and "Feral Cats in Australia". Stassa 21:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Be Bold. --WikiCats 07:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the "expand please" tag added is fine. Stassa 13:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Your pictures of Cats
I also changed the caption of ericcatlake.jpg. If the name is any indication, that's probably eric's cat near the lake, or eric the cat near the lake. In short, cut the crap, that's just a picture of your cat.
And I don't see how the picture of the cat with kittens in the beginning of the article is what the caption says it is. It's not even clear that the big cat is not the mother of the others (please respect my inteligence and don't try to point out that they 're different colours).
I 'm very happy you have cats, but this is supposed to be an informative article about feral cats. There are several forums on the net where you can post pictures of your cats. Do that there, not here. 86.144.205.210 22:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I tend to agree about eric the cat. There is no way you can tell if this cat is wild, tame, feral or whatever. Under those circumstances I doubt if the picture should be in this article. --WikiCats 13:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- For that matter, is there a way to tell if a cat is wild, feral, or tame by looking at it? I would suspect not. Applejuicefool 14:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] More References
Most of the article is POV and location specific. The statements about the living conditions of feral cats and their survivability in the urban "wild" is relevant to dense urban areas in the English-speaking western world, but not to the rest of the world, as I pointed above, or even rural areas anywhere. The very term "feral cats" is Anglo-centric; in the rest of the world, they 're called "stray cats" (well, the equivalent in the languages of the rest of the world, of course). Hence all the calls for references.
If you don't add your references until next month, I 'll add the template about the article being location specific. 'Cause right now, it so is. 86.144.205.210 22:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. --WikiCats 07:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Title
In most parts of the these cats are just called stray cats or alley cats. --WikiCats 12:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hardly the first animal in the world to have multiple names. ;) Sabine's Sunbird talk 02:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Kerguelen Islands
There are sheep in Kerguelen Islands. See: David Grangette, le berger des Kerguelen. --Ann O'nyme 03:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Macquarie Island - Cull gone wrong
Cull upsets island's ecological balance
Although there were initial improvements, the culling saw an unexpected explosion in rats and rabbits population. Rabbits destroy the vegetation, causing erosion and cliff collapse. The rats prey on young birds. The island is in a worst state than before. Can someone add this to the island restoration section? --Dodo bird 06:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I mentioned it. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
