Talk:Glossolalia
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[edit] Removed Neuroscience Section
This longer section was removed by an editor who requested citation of source and 'less general summarizing' - I am preserving the section here for discussion on merits of the removal. Brad 01:07, 15 August 2006
[edit] Neuroscience
- In 2006, at the University of Pennsylvania, researchers, under the direction of Andrew Newberg, MD, completed the world’s first brain-scan study of a group of Pentecostal Practitioners while they were speaking in tongues. Newberg found that the brain responds very differently than when nuns pray or Buddhists meditate. Several significant findings were identified. First, although the practitioners spoke in a coherent language-like way, activity in the language centers of the brain actually decreased, which raises the question of where the language was coming from. This suggests that the brain contains other unidentified language circuits.
- In this form of spiritual practice, Pentecostal practitioners temporarily suspend their system of beliefs (generated by frontal lobe activity, which decreases during glossolalia). This is similar to how creativity works in the brain; we basically enter altered states of consciousness, and this gives us a new perception of the world.
- Other differences were found: Pentecostalists maintain a sense of God’s otherness, whereas Eastern meditation traditions dissolve the self/other sense. Those practitioners tend to feel “at one” with the universe or God (the parietal lobe activity decreases). The emotional strength of glossolalic experiences also would leave a lasting imprint on the brain. In essence, different forms of prayer and meditation allow for different experiences of the world, reality, and the ultimate nature of God or the universe.
- The brain scans also showed a permanent unusual asymmetry in thalamic activity, which was also found in Newberg's scans of nuns and Buddhists. This supports the theory that either intensive prayer permanently alters the brain, or that people with an abnormally functioning thalamus are more prone to having spiritual/religious experiences. It also suggests that intensive focusing on any idea stimulates a series of circuits in the brain that turn the object of contemplation into a physical reality. The study will published in the journal PSYCHIATRY: NEUROIMAGING in the fall of 2006, and is fully described in Newberg's book, WHY WE BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE. Newberg is Associate Professor, Departments of Radiology and Psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania and Staff Physician, Division of Nuclear Medicine, University of Pennsylvania Health System. Brad 01:07, 16 August 2006
- New York Times wrote about the study today, it has been published in Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging, Volume 148, Issue 1, 22 November 2006, Pages 67-71. Kjetilho 23:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
"..spoke in a coherent language-like way..." What does the actual recordings sound like? Can one lookup their words on Google or is it a pseudo language like Marjoe Gortner engaged in? TongueSpeaker 15:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POV Additions
There are two POV sections on "Tongues and interpretation" and "Tongues are for a sign" that have now been inserted twice. They are poorly written, and biased to one, particular viewpoint. These two sections both need to be cleaned up - I deleted them wholly once, and have edited them since they re-appeared, but they are out-of place, mostly redundant, and need to be edited or removed.
After editing attempts to attempt to bring some NPOV to a very POV slant tp these two sections, David Halsm reinsterted the POV slant, claimimg, "(rvt. vandalism by 74.129.240.26 (an attempt to water down a much clearer description of the NT quotation))". POV is not 'clearer'. It should not be up to Wikipedia to declare what the "New Testament teaches" but rather what the New Testament may actually say. Christians of all ilk, non-Christians, Muslims, etc., will all differ on what they claim it actually teaches.
And lastly, the Contemporary Glossolalia section handles both intepretation and sign discussion in a clearlly written and NPOV manner. The redundant discussion here is unnecessary, as well as POV, and deserves removal.
[edit] Clarification please
The bible links talk of people being given the gift to speak in a contemporary foreign language - which is surely useful (mandarin for me - please god PLEASE). Surely this cannot be confused with the incoherent speech produced at modern religious meetings which no-one can understand. Which from a religious point of view is surely just gods gift to make a noise (which I can do with my hi-fi) because it is not communication. Sure, some would like to think it is speaking in an ancient language in which case my point above still holds. Speaking ancient hitite wont do me any good. So I wonder why people are asked to believe that the supreme intelligence of the universe has nothing better to do than this illogical exercise. Any kind of intelligence wouldnt - foreign language like French or German for example? yes, dead language like hitite? no, incoherent babble? no. Please, please, lets not consider God to be so stupid.
The sentence about Tolkien approaches gibberish itself, and has little or nothing to do with the facts of Tolkien's life. See, e.g., the Humphrey Carpenter biography.
Response to Clarification request: If you can get any of this into NPOV language, it might contribute somewhat. As is, it isn't much good.
[edit] Some suggestions
Two suggestions. I would consider either taking the list of biblical passages and converting them to links, or possibly, including the relavent sections of the bible directly in the text.
Second, I think I would feel much better if this block:
From a linguistic point of view, the syllables that make up instances of glossolalia typically appear to be unpatterned reorganizations of phonemes from the primary language of the person uttering the syllables; thus, the glossolalia of people from Russia, Britain, and Brazil all sound quite different from each other, but vaguely resemble the Russian, English, and Portuguese languages, respectively. Linguists generally regard most glossalia as lacking any identifiable semantics, syntax, or morphology—i.e., as nonsense and not as language at all.
Had some sort of cite. It's fine if the cite goes in the discussion, although placing a reference to a research paper in the main text would be preferable. Neither the Christian nor the atheist interpretation, alone, is NPOV. A link to another website that claims this is not really a good reference --- what happens with these is that one web site makes a very weak claim, another picks it up, etc. until it is claimed as fact. The above text certainly sounds plausible, but it's hard to evaluate for correctness without a cite. (I got no username).
This is a familiar paraphrase to me -- it may be from W. Samarin, "Tongues of Men and Angels. The Religious Language of Pentecostalism," Macmillan (1972).
I believe that quote about the morphemic makeup of glossolalia may be from David Crystal (Encyclopedia of the English Language, 2003) or derived from it... could someone put that quote in properly? Zach Beauvais 23:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Please use sections and usernames
'nuff sed? MrJones 12:45, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Yes - please use the default level 2 sections unless the context requires another level. To insert a new section use the + to the right of edit this page in the top menu. DFH 19:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Christian Belief, Speaking in Tongues and Glossolalia
The definition here is correct, however there is a confusion of two uses it seems. I think it would be clearer if there were separate articles on Glossolalia and speaking in tongues with links to each other.
This article should explain the controversy in Chrisitan circles about whether speaking in tongues is genuine or not and the Linguistic and psychological definition. The two should not be confused, as they are different things. I may come back here and do this some time.
Response: Well, the very claim that the two are 'different things' is itself POV. The website you reference claims they are, a large body of Pentecostal literature (however much you may disagree with it) claims the opposite. For NPOV, both viewpoints should be documented accurately.
MrJones 12:45, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Syntactically viable glossolalia?
The interesting thing about glossolalia is that it appears syntactically viable!. Do I need to provide a scholarly reference from a linguist, published in an archival, peer-reviewed journal to support this claim?
- Some support, yes, and even then, the article must state that others disagree with the claim. Please see neutral point of view. Your claim directly contradicts several things I read online earlier today, and in this reading I saw no mention of any claim that glossolalia often, or ever, has anything like a syntax. I find it extremely implausible, on its face, but I'm willing to be taught on this point. --LMS
- I think there is some confusion over terminology here. See above.
Please talk to me I speak 21 original languages that I never studied www.internationaljerusalem.com
[edit] Glossolalia and mental illness
If glossolalia is also associated with mental illness, it would be nice to have another paragraph, preferably written by someone with some exposure, if not training with this aspect of mental illness.
- Another paragraph or several are definitely in order. But I disagree that the person who writes them needs to have exposure or training; he or she needs only to be able to do some good basic research. According to several sources online, which you can find out for yourself by following the links I've added, it is used by the psychiatric community. --LMS
These links do not point to archival literature.
A search on the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association websites returned 0 results on the query glossolalia. How shall I assess your claim?
I'm sure you can be creative; the fact that those websites search engines do not return results for that term proves nothing. Try searching Google.
- I got 69 hits for a search on "glossolalia" from the social science, science and arts citation indices of peer-reviewed journal articles (not books, book chapters, and so forth) with the earliest in 1972. I didn't look at medical journals which might pull in some more. A quick glance through showed both religious studies and psychological reasearch. I've added a little bit to the Current Christian section from one of these.147.188.128.117 01:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I will continue to change that definition back to what it should be, because it is manifestly wrong. Glossolalia does not even appear to be syntactically viable language. Who thinks so, besides you? More importantly, consider the merits of your definition as a definition. The essential feature of glossolalia is not that it "utterance of what appears to be syntactically viable language, sometimes as a form of religious worship (religious glossolalia), and sometimes by the mentally ill." According to that definition, the English language would be glossolalia; it certainly appears to be syntactically viable (unlike glossolalia), and it is sometimes used as a form of religious worship (e.g., preaching), and sometimes by the mentally ill. No, the distinguishing feature of glossolalia is that it appears to be nonsense. Now, we can argue 'til we're blue in the face about whether it is nonsense or not; but it's just a fact about what the word means that it appears to be nonsense. --LMS
Ok, you win.
[edit] Request for writing about schizophrenic glossolalia
Moving this suggestion here from the main page:
- We need a few good paragraphs about schizophrenic glossolalia...
[edit] Nonsensical paragraphs?
"Curiously, however, Christian fundamentalists in the last two centuries have developed a definition of this term that is the precise opposite of what is described in the New Testament."
Whoever wrote this seems to have overlooked that glossolalia, apart from being described in Acts.2, is mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament, most importantly in 1Cor.14. And there are important differences between what Acts.2 and 1Cor.14 say about glossolalia.
As a historical source to the manifestations of the primitive church, 1Cor. is the more reliable. Even the most critical scholars accept that letter as written by the apostle Paul (who died in the 60s). As for Acts, that book is now often dated to 90-110, and the story in ch. 2 cannot well be an eyewitness account.
S.
- Questions of historical accuracy aside, the paragraph was simply incorrect. Removed. MrJones 12:45, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Moved from the page:
"(I am not aware of any literature which studies the cognative dissonance displayed by Christian fundamentalists. How do they reconcile the fact that what they observe is the precise opposite of what they claim to observe? Can someone add some references and info?)" -- (followed sentence beginning "This is the precise opposite of what is described in the New Testament...")
[edit] Other discussion
"which neither English speakers nor non-English speakers understand". Can someone find a better phrase because this works in any langage. Ericd 13:02 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Concerns about Neutrality
This may only be the way that I, as someone who believes in the gift of Tongues, read this, but to me this article seems to lean on the point of view that Glossolalia is fake. But maybe it's just me. Thudgens
[edit] Regarding Neutrality
I've had this problem with many other pages about controversial topics, as well as pages about famous people who are known for controversial opinions. It seems to me that an encyclopedia entry should use the greatest portion of its space in giving information about the topic, with identification that there are criticisms of it as a uniquely headed section toward the end of the section. This seems a good across-the-board rule. It's just nonsense to pepper a description of a topic with criticisms. They interrupt the attempt to describe the topic and create a sense that the entire article is POV against the topic.
Qinah
Qinah writes: "It seems to me that an encyclopedia entry should use the greatest portion of its space in giving information about the topic, with identification that there are criticisms of it as a uniquely headed section toward the end of the section. This seems a good across-the-board rule."
It is a good rule. Unfortunately, in Wikipedia it's only applied to LIBERALS as far as I have been able to discern in my short time here.
A non-liberal's article will be CHOCK FULL of every tiny little nitpicking thing some lefty thinks they can slime them with.
It's pathetic and, as a result, most reasonable people know they can't trust Wik in it's present state.
That's too bad, when it could so easily be fixed.
Ps I actually think the version of Tongues in Wik is pretty good and well written.
I take exception to the following excerpt as it seems a gratiuitous cheap shot, but I'll hold my fire until I do some more research:
"...Glossolalists tend to have more need of authority figures and appeared to have had more crises in their lives."
Ps Is he talking about tongue talkers or Oprah-watchers? lol!
Big Daddy 11:05, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Misleading Terminology
There are problems in the article, of confusing or ambiguous terminology. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Pentecostalism
The article says "Pentecostalism is the fastest growing sect ". Pentecostalism is not a sect, but related streams of recent traditions and comparable schools of interpretation which arose from the Holiness movement. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
-
- I changed that sentence today DFH 21:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fundamentalism and glossolalia
The Fundamentalist movement rejects speaking in tongues. Neo-evangelicals were open to associating with Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics, but the Fundamentalists (from whom they distinguished themselves by this kind of openness) were not. "Fundamentalist" then, is being used in the popular, imprecise and biased sense, of "not Liberal". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Bona fide
The article says, "Charismatic/Pentecostal and Evangelical Christians more readily agree that the original instances of Christian glossolalia, as reported in the book of Acts, exemplified bona fide instances of actual human languages." The words "more readily" and "bona fide" here, render the statement false on several counts.
- Evangelicals do not believe in the continuation of the gift of tongues, unless they are Charismatic or Pentecostal Evangelicals.
- Evangelicals who are not Pentecostal or Charismatic are more likely to believe that the Biblical speaking in tongues exemplifies a miraculous gift of bona fide (actual) human languages.
- Pentecostals and Charismatics are just as likely as other Evangelicals (and other Christians, too) to believe that the glossolalia in Acts (specifically) is speaking in a human language.
- Evangelicals are more likely to believe that the speaking in tongues found in the Corinthian churches was FALSE, nonsensical utterances, and not the spiritual gift.
- Evangelicals are more likely than Charismatics and Pentecostals to believe that IF the gift of tongues found among the Corinthians was an acutal spiritual gift, the speakers spoke in actual human languages. In contrast, the P and C are more prone to believe that the Corinthians had a different gift, perhaps angelic languages, or a language for use in prayer - an "unknown language" - which can be interpreted only by those who have the gift of interpreting the secret language, and NOT a human language.
— Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The paragraph with the example
I'm deleting this paragraph — I think an example of glossolalia would be useful in the article, but this example isn't cited and it seems unlikely to be an actual example. It sounds like someone having fun. I'm surprised it isn't a bunch of troll phrases. Tempshill 20:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
It's an example of how it is possible to mimic the alleged 'divine language' by putting perfectly normal words together. This particular phrase was first coined in 1993.
[edit] Several things
First off, there are two main branches of Glossolalia. The first is phonetic and syntactical, but apparently "nonsensical". This form of Glossolalia is the one most commonly encountered by people studying the phenomenon, for a variety of reasons. The second type of Glossolalia is much more musical than phonetic, and is probably the type Y'shua ben yeoseph actually used, because it has a very real ability to induce Theta waves. The first kind of Glossolalia is a shallow parroting of the second. In order for the second type of Glossolalia to come off, there has to be probably a minimum of two dozen voices, each generating an independant and yet related staccato melody of very, very, fast beats.
Prometheuspan 03:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A few changes
- I found the device ("from a <adj> point of view") distracting, so I changed headings, etc.. I hope the intended meaning is preserved here. Also, not sure there exists a "linguistic point of view" or a single perspective that could claim to be the "Christian point of view."
- Added [citation needed] templates in some of the places that could use references.
- Removed "non-Christian," which conveyed POV.
- "Modern psychology" section was incoherent to me, so I removed it. Heading suggests that this was a perspective you might find in Psychology Today, but as written I couldn't understand. Also, if this section returns, citations (outside of Wikipedia) to back up whatever is being said here would be helpful.
Joelsmith 03:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clarity between 'Baptism of the Spirit' and Glossolalia
There needs to be a better understanding between "Baptism of the HS" and Glossolalia. They are not the same thing.
- Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling, 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
- 1 Corinthians 12:12 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body – though many – are one body, so too is Christ. 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves4 or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.
Let's not confuse the 2 please. A careful exegesis of these passages shows that any true beleiver is baptized into the body of Christ by the HS. Many charismatics have been using "Filled with the Spirit" for some time. And for good reason. People who don't understand theology will become confused on what the baptism of the HS is, if used this way.
--Nathanimal 19:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Today's edits
Some of the paragraphs were either confusing or unclear. In my editing today, I have tried to improve the general sense and flow of the page, without drastically altering the sense of what was there already. A citation is required for my statement about how early Pentecostals viewed their own Speaking in Tongues. I plan to provide this later. DFH 20:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Done. DFH 14:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The controversy
It seemed an odd omission that the main article had not previously reported that glossolalia is a highly controversial issue for many Christians. I have therefore inserted a new sub-heading, so that this controversy (and its effects) may be further described by other contributors. This new section will require close attention to adhere to a NPOV. DFH 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I have given references to just two books from the 1960s. No need to proliferate references; a couple of examples suffice. For a more extensive bibliography, refer to the page on cessationism. DFH 16:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tongues prior to Pentecostalism
Lacking from the main article is any information about the historic instances of glossalia in the centuries before the birth of modern Pentecostalism. Just as an example, there is yet no reference to Edward Irving and the Catholic Apostolic Church in the earlier half of the nineteenth century. Such a serious omission needs to be remedied. DFH 21:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- New sub-heading Tongues in church history inserted. Earlier examples could be added to the list. DFH 16:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
If there is only one documented occurence before the 20th century, does this really deserve its own section? Is one example really a "serious omission"?
I have added several other examples - there more, but this should serve as a start. It was indeed a serious ommission, as there is a sizable body of original sources discussing 'tobgues-speaking'.
[edit] Contemporary Christian glossolalia
The first sentence of this, which refered to some Christians "claiming to have practiced or witnessed glossolalia" was unecessarily hedged, I think. The debate is not over the existance of glossolalia but over its source and status. None of the published literature that I've seen questions questions the fact that Christians practice glossolalia. I've edited the first couple of sentences to this effect.147.188.128.117 02:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I've moved part of this section (about early Pentecostalism) to the Church history section. The text in the reference for this is really interesting but could do with a date. I've tried to tidy the section up so that it narrowly provides a NPOV summary of contemporary belief and practice in the charismatic mainstream (i.e. "typical" charismatic / pentecostal belief and practice). Apologies for the lack of username - I'm the same person as above. I'll have to sort one out. 86.30.236.6 21:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Context and Terms section
I can't see any previous discussion about this section, but it seems to me that it provides neither context nor a definition of terms. The long quote from acts is context if and only if you happen to be a Christian who already believes that tongues should be part of contemporary Christian experience. I'm not clear that context is needed at all beyond the opening paragraph to the entry. Leaving aside "alternative science" (which is both debatable and fairly irrelevant, I think) the rest reads like Biblical exegesis rather than impartial discussion of a phonomenon. For what it's worth, I'm a Chrisitian who uses tongues and believes that they're God inspired. However, I don't think we do ourselves any favours by using this a platform to preach from, even in the mild form that, I think, was present in this section 86.30.236.6 22:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] decide terms
Ok I've read this article, and I'm not a stupid person but could someone actually tell me what glossolalia really is? the section from acts states that everyone in the crowd could understand what was being said. hence "speaking in tongues" seems to mean that everyone, regardless of language, could understand what was being said. everything else here seems to be saying that glossalia is exactly the opposite in that whatever the person is saying, be it a real phenomena or faked or mental instability or religious experience, is NOT understood by the audience. my account wont leave me signed in so you get an IP address. --66.82.9.82 05:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- The people from Acts.2 were all Jews and bilingual. Imagine a congregation of Americans all able to speak a second language not all the same suddenly start speaking this language at the same time. An ordinary person knowing that they are bilingual would therefore assume they were drunk. What happened in Acts.2 though was that a Jew who knew no Elamite spoke supernaturally Elamite via the power of the Holy Spirit. The casual observer not knowing what was going on thought that this Jew speaking Elamite was speaking his second language.TongueSpeaker 16:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that the key features of glossolalia are (a) that it is language-like, in the sense that it uses the same kinds of sounds as might occur in natural-language speech and (b) the speaker is not able to indentify the meaning of their utterance in the same way as they would if they'd spoken in their own langauage. I think there might be a third element, to do with the fact that the speaker is able to generate glossolalia fluently and relatively efforlessly. Issues about whether or not glossolalia is a real langauge, results from mental instability, comes from God, is sometimes understood by listeners, and so forth, are the focus of debates amongst, variously, linguists, psychologists, and Christians. You're confusion reflects that state of the debate, I suspect. Mark Willott 23:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tongues as a sign
The section I inserted some days ago under the heading Tongues as a sign was deleted on the grounds that User:Bzehr thought it was POV. Using this approach will get us nowhere when quoting Biblical passages in Wikipedia. It is an undeniable fact that the passage in 1 Corinthians 14 describes tongues as being "for a sign". To report this in an encyclopedia page was not being POV; it is merely reporting the Biblical data. That the apostle Paul explains it was "a sign for unbelievers" is also quite clear from the passage. That the quotation from Isaiah proves it was a sign for judgment rather than for attestation is also clear. I have the impression that a more likely reason the section was deleted is because User:Bzehr disagrees with the apostle. DFH 19:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Before we describe what some Christians believe or disbelieve about these matters, there must be room for a clear description of the Biblical data. It is pointless to keep changing such statements to "some Christians believe that the NT teaches that ...." when the quoted verses are unambiguous and not difficult to understand. If you wish to change these sections, please first discuss them in the talk page. DFH 21:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tongues and their interpretation
Again I assert that what I just re-inserted was not POV, merely reporting the Biblical data and describing it using modern terminology such as requirement and procedure. The fact that thousands of Pentecostalists and Charismatics choose to ignore these apostolic instructions is no reason to remove the description of them from such an encyclopedia article. DFH 20:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Nor was the section redundant, as User:Bzehr asserted, when he wrote, interpretation of tongues already covered under 'Contemporary Christian glossolalia. Though that later section touched on the point, it made no reference to the NT passages. It makes better sense to have the point about the requirement for intepretation stated under the heading Tongues in the NT, particularly as this quotes the actual NT passages being referred to. If anything the section on Contemporary Christian glossolalia is still rather POV, even though it does describe what many Pentecostalists and Charismatics practice. DFH 20:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Before we describe what some Christians believe or disbelieve about these matters, there must be room for a clear description of the Biblical data. It is pointless to keep changing such statements to "some Christians believe that the NT teaches that ...." when the quoted verses are unambiguous and not difficult to understand. If you wish to change these sections, please first discuss them in the talk page. DFH 21:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- User:Bzehr keeps reverting my edits in this section and the one above, yet he doesn't even have a userpage! Is this guy a sockpuppet ? DFH 21:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Before we describe what some Christians believe or disbelieve about these matters, there must be room for a clear description of the Biblical data. It is pointless to keep changing such statements to "some Christians believe that the NT teaches that ...." when the quoted verses are unambiguous and not difficult to understand. If you wish to change these sections, please first discuss them in the talk page. DFH 21:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I was responsible for the last big edit of the CCG section and thought it ended up being reasonably NPOV. Tell me why it still reads to you as POV and I'll see if I can put it right. Mark Willott 23:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your offer. Need time to think about that, and hope to come back later. As it is, I've been away for a few days. DFH 21:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Speaking in Tongues in Christian Traditions
I've more or less reverted the edit by 203.236.3.241 to the introductory paragraph to this section because I didn't understand its purpose, and I thought the resulting paragraph was both untrue and rather incoherent. Mark Willott 23:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Redirects
Since tongues almost always refers to this, I changed moved the tongues page about an obscure rap album to Tongues (Esham) and created a redirect to here. Now, that means that this page has to have the redirect information at the top, which makes it a little cluttered, but I don't see a way around that. Thanatosimii 16:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC) Folks: Thank you for the education. I've read and understood Acts as a depiction of the early church development. In my understanding, many of the miracles performed in Acts were necessary because of the very reason that an early church required miraculous things to get the attention of the yet to be believers. Therefore, it is my opinion that speaking in toungues (being a necessary miracle of God through the Holy Spirit) is a (or was a) miracle of a time that seems to be replicated by people claiming to boast of the Holy Spirit as a sort of badge of holiness. Am I judging? Maybe so. However, why is this not part of the debate/discussion? It seems a very revelent piece that should be referenced. Is this not the place for it?84.166.94.219 04:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
84.166.94.219 04:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Folks: Thank you for the education. I've read and understood Acts as a depiction of the early church development. In my understanding, many of the miracles performed in Acts were necessary because of the very reason that an early church required miraculous things to get the attention of the yet to be believers. Therefore, it is my opinion that speaking in toungues (being a necessary miracle of God through the Holy Spirit) is a (or was a) miracle of a time that seems to be replicated by people claiming to boast of the Holy Spirit as a sort of badge of holiness. Am I judging? Maybe so. However, why is this not part of the debate/discussion? It seems a very revelent piece that should be referenced. Is this not the place for it?84.166.94.219 04:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Book list on Tongues
- "Speaking in Tongues A cross-cultural Study on Glossolalia" - Felicitas D. Goodman
She describes Glossolalia on page xxi as always being associated with altered states of consciousness TongueSpeaker 16:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Uncited Quotation Removed
I removed the following reference to an uncited quotation from the Tongues in the Church History section:
* 150 AD - Justin Martyr refers to tongues-speaking as practiced in his day in his Dialogue with Trypho, "If you want proof that the Spirit of God who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy." [citation needed]
I had placed this section there some time ago when I made various edits based on notes I had taken during library research, and meant to come back at a later time to provide the correct citation. It seems, however, that I cannot find a citation for this anywhere than on a single other website: http://www.1335.com/hsbaptism.html:
2) Justin Martyr, around 150 A.D. "Come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick and hear them speak with tongues and prophecy"
purportedly quoting a certain ALAN CAMPBELL B.A, of Belfast.
The quotation therefore seems in all probability spurious, so I removed it.
Brad 21:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Flowery word study paragraph
This paragraph (below) adds very little to the article -- it seems to be a quote from someone's draft undergraduate thesis. If there is something of value here, perhaps someone who knows what is intended by it can rewrite it in a number of separate sentences?
- Fundamental to Biblical interpretation is the appropriate transliteration of primitive terms, and just as the term "spirit" comes from "breath" or "vapour", the term "tongues of fire" is almost certainly a use of fire as a metaphor for markedly increased and radiant powers of speech during the Pentecost.[citation needed]
For good measure, I made some (I hope) minor changes to reflect the difference of opinion between the spoken languages vs heard languages interpretations. Sittingduck123 13:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Section Removed
The section below made little sense in the 'Glossolalia In Other Religions' sections, as it is focused entirely on Christianity (as well as having several difficult constructions). If anyone would like to clean this up and reinsert it in a logical section, it has been preserved here:
Christians have been know throughout time to have the gift of “speaking in tongues”. There are certain Christians that do not believe that speaking in tongue is a gift from God. Skepticism amongst Christians have become the result of splitting the church or preventing members, that practice speaking in tongues, from being promoted to certain positions in the church. According to the Washing Times 10/20/06, Southern Baptist International Mission Board says that they will no longer appoint missionaries who use a “private prayer language”. Therefore, if private prayer language is an ongoing part of his or her conviction and practice the candidate has eliminated him or herself from being a representative of the IBM of the SBC. This is one example of skepticism in result of speaking in tongue. Acts 2:1-21 describes the Feast of Weeks; when the Apostles and other followers were gathering in a house in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit descended upon each of them. The Apostles began to speak with other tongues and other men from other nations were able to understand the Apostles in their birth language. The part of the audience was in amazement, other followers in the audience said that the men were drunk. Even then there were skepticism, a lot of people seem to be most skeptical because not everyone is able to speak in tongue or able to understand the language. The Feast of Weeks is one of the first reporting of men speaking in tongue. According to Tom Brown the Pastor of a church in El Paso, Texas says that speaking in tongues edifies oneself. In speaking in tongues it builds you up or recharges you. He also states that “those who believes in him will speak in tongues”. References: Brown, Tom (2006). Speaking in Tongues. retrieved October 31,2006. from http://www.tbm.org/tongues.htm (2006, October 23). Baptists renounce speaking in tongues. The Washington Times on the web. Retrieved October 30, 2006. from http://www. washingtontimes.com/national/20061019-111226-2628r.htm
Brad 01:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] POV Section
I removed the following section, which is from a single point of view written as fact, and placed it here for discussion or correction:
The purpose of tongues during the establishment of the Lord's church was to teach the gospel since there was no written New Testament from which to teach at that time. Interestingly, there is no biblical example of anyone speaking tongues unless they were touched by either Jesus, the Apostles, or someone who had been touched by the Jesus or the Apostles. It is also written in First Corinthians that all tongues would cease after that which is perfect or complete (the New Testament or perfect word of God) had come, seriously questioning the need for and truthfulness of tongues after the completion of this text. This scripture, combined with Galatians 1:7-8, which states that anyone who teaches a gospel contrary to what was taught by the Apostles is to be accursed, should bring serious doubt on tongues used during present times.
Brad 00:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with its removal. While this might be a valid viewpoint on the part of some, it is still nothing more than one person's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13. "That which is perfect" could refer to a lot of things; I don't believe it to be appropriate for that person, or any person for that matter, to declare to the rest of us, with finality, what that is. This would appear to be a perfect example of someone picking and choosing a few words and taking them out of context.
Might I interject this scriptual warning, for the person's consideration, from Proverbs 30 verse 6: "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."Vince 66.210.33.200 08:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)-
- I was humbly reminded that Wikipedia is not a forum, and removed a statement that I probably should have left out in the first place. Vince 66.210.33.200
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[edit] Reversion of neuroscience edit
I took the liberty of removing a questionable edit in the Neuroscience section which changed the idea that there was "decreased" activity in the language centers of the brain to "no" activity. Somehow I question, without any source, having zero activity. --Joe Sewell 17:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Removed 'Hagbard Cline' bullet
I removed the following bullet from the section Glossolalia#Glossolalia in popular culture:
Hagbard Cline saves the day near the end of Illuminatus! by speaking to a multinational crowd in tongues (explained as the 'Pentecostal Gimmick' by Malaclypse the Elder, who claims to have taught it to Jesus in the first place.
as it's wrong in most every respect. (1) "Hagbard Celine", not "Hagbard Cline". (2) Celine speaks using the "pentecost trick", which is a way in which everyone, no matter their native language, heard Cline as speaking that language. This would seem pretty much the opposite of glossolalia. -- Charlie (Colorado) 20:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Psychological Study on Glossolalia
I added some text on the 'psychology' section of the article. The original text was this:
"A 2003 statistical study by the religious journal Pastoral Psychology concluded that, among the 991 male evangelical clergy sampled, glossolalia was associated with stable extraversion, and contrary to some theories, completely unrelated to psychopathology."
I checked the reference for this study and found that the study was conducted by a journal called "Pastoral Psychology" (Vol. 51 #5). I think this is a biased source, since it is a religious publication. I do not think a publication such as Pastoral Psychology is fully able to look at the study of glossolalia or other religious phenomena objectively because they have an obvious bias that it is not associated with mental illness. I do not know if this study has been peer-reviewed or if the larger scientific community agrees with it. Just because a study was published in a scientific or religious journal does not mean it is the general consensus of the scientific community. There are several published studies arguing that global warming is not real, for example, but the consensus of the majority of the scientific community believes that it is.
I also saw a suggestion in another discussion about this topic and I believe it would be helpful to do what this person suggests: "This article should explain the controversy in Chrisitan circles about whether speaking in tongues is genuine or not and the Linguistic and psychological definition. The two should not be confused, as they are different things."
I reomved the following POV assessment of an unregistered user, who wrote the unsigned comments above: " It should be noted that, as a primarily religious publication, Pastoral Psychology may not be an objective source on this matter." I left in that editor's addition that referenced Pastoral Psychology as a "religious journal", which is helpfulfor readers in determining a context for that journal's published research. Brad 15:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Example of actual tongue recording
Media:tongueTemp.ogg Media:tongue12feb.ogg TongueSpeaker 21:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I have created http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TongueSpeaker with my tongues as words reflecting this recording. I agree with 99% of the sentiment expressed on this forum - modern day Glossolalia is a scam. It is not even apparant nonsense - it is nonsense. And I say this as somebody who actually can speak in tongues. Six minute long Glossolalia uploaded to http://www.esnips.com/web/TongueSpeaker.TongueSpeaker 17:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I have presented my tongues to a Ph.d in Linguistics who told me he can't help me with it because it will "...ruin his career". I will not give you his name for obvious reasons. Perhaps another linguist around here not afraid of the Darwinian thought police prowling Universities can help me in my attempt at falsifying my own tongues.TongueSpeaker 17:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
The Lord Jesus Christ essentially gave a falsification test for his claims in Mark 16. Something to disprove his claim of being God in the flesh. TongueSpeaker 20:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
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- While I can't fault your zeal, I don't believe this is exactly useful material for wikipedia. If the sound was taken from a peer reviewed study as an example of alleged tongues, it might be includable, but I'm sure this somehow flies in the face of OR. Thanatosimii 22:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
That is why I am asking first. I guess I should upload it then to scratchpad or perhaps any other site that would take it. I understand your sceptisism. After you probably being accosted by people going 'SHANDALA', da,da, ba,ba,ba ta-ta-ta-ta-ta who then insist that SHANDALA which occurs in Voodism and Pentecostal circles is now somehow some sort of language how could I expect you to believe me? But this is the whole point about speaking a language: It is impossible to fake. You are either pregnant or not, dead or alive. You can either speak a language where every second word can be looked up on Google or you can't. It is an astounding falsification test. It would initially be possible to deceive people but eventually the truth will be known. I am hopelessly to stupid to fake this. I don't have the natural linguistic ability. And peer review consists of four linguists deciding to publish an article. Obviously publishing something positive about tongues will never be allowed by the thought police. TongueSpeaker 06:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- It's not thought police... and for the record, I do believe in tongues and know a friend who does a real good old persian... The problem is that you need to cite peer reviewed literature to include somthing in wikipedia. Your file would constitute Original Research and cannot be included. Thanatosimii 20:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Removed NY Times Link
I removed the following link from the Neuroscience section (regarding one author of the study who speaks in tongues) as it required a login in order to read it: [1]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bzehr (talk • contribs) 18:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Removed Biased Statement
"This is the only true form of tongues. It is an unscriptural practice when it is practiced as an estatic language as the Pentecostals and others claim it to be."
I cannot see these two sentences as anything other than a religious bias based on the opinion or interpretation of one person or religious faction. How can this be seen as an objective statement in keeping with WP:NPOV? I am not certain if it warrants rewording, so at this point I have removed it from the article. 66.210.33.200 07:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)Vince
[edit] Uncited anecdote removed
- 1960s--A retired US Soldier traveling abroad visited a charasmatic church in Germany. During the service, a lady stood up and started mumbling in an "unknown tongue." He stood up and left the service. His friends later asked him why he had left. He related to them that he had learned ancient Mandarin as a code language to use. He stated that the woman who was oblivious to what she was saying stood up and was cursing Jesus Christ in ancient Mandarin.[citation needed]
This kind of story is told often, but requires a citation Brad 02:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
