Talk:Hard rock
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[edit] Comment
It's really nice to see a musical genre discussed in terms of objective musical criteria like tonality, instrumental timbre, and tempo. This finally made it clear to me where metal ends and hard-rock begins. Of course these concepts are ultimately prototype-oriented and defy rigid definition, but this article accurately characterizes the prototype in clear musical terms. Kudos, and let's see more of the same.
- Agreed.
Guns n Roses shouldnt be in that list.
Most punk and grunge bands would fit that diffinition having power chord driven songs with pentatonic solos.--SonOfUncleSam 08:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "the darkest lyrics ever written"
there is a part of this article that mentions black sabbath's "paranoid" album, and states that "it was typified by the darkest lyrics ever written"... thats not a very "encyclopedic" statement in my opinion, should we change it? maybe something like "it was typified by very dark lyrics"?
[edit] A few distinctions?
There is often significant crossover with heavy metal music, but a few distinctions are worth noting: hard rock typically features major key song construction, as opposed to heavy metal, which is often minor key oriented. There is a heavy reliance on the pentatonic scale for most elements of song construction, and fifths (power chords) are often substituted for traditional chords. Chord progressions are commonly associated to 1-4-5 degrees of the scale, as in rock and roll.
A few distinctions? There is only one in this list (unless this paragraph is supposed to mean that heavy metal doesn't usually use pentatonic scale and power chords). And saying that the only difference between hard rock and heavy metal is major vs. minor key is ridiculous... --Army1987 13:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] this article really needs to be redone
I mean, I agree with a lot of what it is saying, but it seems to be saying it all wrong. I think the AC/DC comment is just...off. Personally I think Guns N' Roses would be a better fit, but i think that no matter who you pick, a lot of people will be alienated. Also, Hexdrix, as much as I love him, definitely wasn't "Hard Rock." Definitely Blues, or just Rock and Roll. Also, the next paragraph is just wrong. First off, there's definitely a distinction between Metal and Hard Rock, and while they overlap, you can pretty easily define any band as Hard Rock or Metal. Plus, I can't speak for Metal (don't listen to it much), but Hard Rock uses the Minor Scale a lot, not just the pentatonic. The pentatonic is much more punk and such, as are power chords (although yes, they are still used in Hard Rock a lot, especially later stuff). I suppose the rest is ok. I'd like to change the article, but I'd like to get a larger consensus from you guys too. I mean, do the rest of you think it's ok as it is?
I would also agree that there are some errors with the article. As for my bit, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was Mick Jagger and the Stones that first used distortion not Hendricks.
[edit] Let's go working
I heard this article has to be improved a lot, so I'll start working. I think it should talk about the history of hard rock, and not about differences with heavy metal, because in many cases it's impossible to classify a group as "heavy metal" or "hard rock" (for example the case of Black Sabbath and AC/DC).
--Hard Rock Thunder 12:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, for me it's easy. Black Sabbath is metal, AC/DC is hard rock. I find them to be quite different really. Black Sabbath is actually 'heavy' unlike AC/DC, and I'm not talking about how loud they play. marnues 05:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree at all. Black Sabbath's music and lyrics are "darker" and heavier than AC/DC, the scales used are different and so on. Black Sabbath is heavy metal and AC/DC is hard rock. Anyway, there are many people who still consider Black Sabbath "hard rock" or "proto-metal". I have to find a good label which satisfies everyone and it's not easy.
Thank you for your attention,
--Hard Rock Thunder 12:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I understand where you're coming from, and I think that a part of the article should be about this topic. But I agree with you that it should mostly be about hard rock as a distinct genre. Quick aside, does anyone actually consider punk a part of hard rock. I mean, a healthy part of punk seems to be a rejection of blues and psychedelic rock as direct influences. marnues 01:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
You're right. Punk isn't a part of the pure genre hard rock, it's musically different. It's a rejection of blues, progressive and psychedelic and it uses different scales; anyway, there's still who considers punk as a "product" of hard rock's "alternative" spirit. I agree with you that punk isn't hard rock at all, as you said.
Thank you for your suggestions,
--Hard Rock Thunder 09:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody, I'd need a help. I said in the article that Aerosmith, KISS and Queen are the best acts of Glam Rock, but a doubt came out in my head. When you talk about Glam Rock, you usually refer to David Bowie and so on, then the definition of "Glam Rock" I used should be wrong. Do I have to call it Glam Metal or Glam Rock?
--Hard Rock Thunder 10:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
- Aerosmith have nothing to do with either glam genre. KISS became glam metal in the mid 80s when they ditched their makeup. Queen however is both glam rock and heavy metal, although not glam metal since that developed in the 80's around the LA scene.
- I am a Queen and a Metal fan, and Queen has nothing to do with metal, they are Hard rock and glam rock and even progressive in 70´s... and in 80´s has a more wide sound with pop...Queen was compared many times to Led Zeppelin in 70´s too.....
- I like how the article's developing so far. However, be sure you're referenceing sources so you can make sure any assumptions you have are correct. WesleyDodds 04:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
- OK, thank you WesleyDodds for your suggestions. I'll correct that part then!
--Hard Rock Thunder 10:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
I want to say thanks to all the guys that are helping me in writing this article, especially on the grammar side. My grammar isn't the max, so I need some help for this. Thank you.
--Hard Rock Thunder 10:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The article cites Paranoid as the first heavy metal album, but wouldn't Black Sabbath's self titled debut be more appropriate? --72.141.226.196 06:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
Well, I see someone has labelled a section of this article as "disputed". I'd like to know his reasons, so we might adjust the section. Thanks.
--Hard Rock Thunder 10:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
p.s: If you meant as NPOV the sentence about Van Halen's glam rock, then don't worry, I took it off.
[edit] Heavy metal = pessimistic?
I disagree with the sentence : "Heavy metal lyrics, on the contrary, analyses life in a pessimistic way, because of its "alternative" nature". There are countless examples of the opposite, and in fact the article on heavy metal mentions (for example) "power metal bands, whose lyrical and musical tones are often bombastic and optimistic. Many power metal fans and bands, most notably Manowar, believe metal should be inspiring and upbeat music.". Though it is true in some cases, I don't think it can be used as a characteristic to differentiate between hard rock and heavy metal. Certainly that statement should be less affirmative considering its uncertainties. --IronChris 18:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you this statement isn't the absolute truth. It represents the general direction of metal, it doesn't want to be exhaustive about all the metal world. Personally, I'd never classify a genre being based on "general tendencies", which sounds like prejudices to me: anyway, as I said many times, I have to do this because this article has to be "encyclopedic". I'm a metallar, I know the world of heavy metal, and I agree with what you said. I'll edit that section, then. Thank you for your suggestions and collaboration.
--Hard Rock Thunder 12:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] '90s decline?
how so? it seems that most of the rock bands popular today are highly derivative of hard rock. it didn't decline it just evolved. Joeyramoney 00:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe decline isn't the best term, but it's near to be the best. Hard rock is a blues-derivative genre, while today there are few bands that play the original hard rock. Anyway, I'll erase it.
--Hard Rock Thunder 09:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
idk about that. during the 90s most bands pussed out and started selling softer albums so they could sell more. Sure, every once in a while youll hear a new hard rock song from some random band on the radio, but since the early 90s hard rock has really decreased in popularity. For example, a radio station that is where im from used to only play "modern" hard rock, but they had so little to play they had to switch to hard rock from the past few decades. idk what bands he thinks "evolved" from hard rock.
[edit] Article little to do with Hard Rock
I appreciate that this article is getting some much needed attention, but this history reads like a history of Heavy Metal and fails to mention Hard rock's relation... when this is an article about Hard rock. - Deathrocker 22:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This may be right, but you see, there are two reasons why I'm focusing a little heavy metal: 1 - when you talk about bands such as Motley Crue, Judas Priest, Motorhead and sometimes Metallica there isn't a wall that separates Heavy Metal and Hard Rock, so why don't we talk about them a little? 2 - well, the only "pure hard rock" bands in the 1980s are Aerosmith, AC/DC, Guns N'Roses, KISS and Van Halen. But, in complex, there are a lot more bands in the Hard Rock scene.
Thank you for your attention,
--Hard Rock Thunder 09:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- OK, dude hard rock gave birth to metal but especially the latter half is only about heavy metal. The fact that Deep Purple is still around has been left out and besides a couple of bands like Ugly Kid Joe haven't been mentioned at all. Not only that, Metallica has been a heavy metal band from day one and was never classified as hard rock. So at least stop referring to them like that. And besides, you're not focusing a little on metal but ONLY on metal! --Aksnitd 06:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hard Rock Is Still Popular
In the box on the side it states that the popularity of Hard Rock was less from 1990s on. This is true when it comes to contemporary music, but in the United States hard rock bands from the past are still immensely popular amongst today’s youth. Similar to the Grunge and Punk movements of the past, many of my peers are rejecting the mainstream music of today. Only unlike the Grunge and Punk movements, they are not turning to the sounds of a new genre, but rather to the popular genres from the past. This may be a result of the fact a new genre of rock n’ roll has not gained notoriety from a large fan base since Grunge of the early ‘90s. (unless you count bands like “Green Day”, who are viewed more as a pop rock band than punk rock band). This may be why Hard Rock is being used as an umbrella term for grunge, heavy metal, and punk. When teenagers look back at all the great bands from the past that sound so different from the “rock” of today, they want a term that can describe all of them. So, instead of saying that Hard Rock is on the decline, remember that there is still a modern fan base, just not any modern bands for them to follow.
Alright. So, what do you suggest I should write in the box?
--Hard Rock Thunder 12:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, the popularity section of the box could be removed. Or, instead, a new section, that documents the recent resurgence of Hard Rock in today’s pop culture, could be added.
but notice also that it is a timeline. Yes people are fans of the bands from previos years, but there are no popular hard rock bands to put in the modern section. i think this is what it means by hard rock is not as popular.
[edit] Link Wray
I noticed this article doesn't mention Link Wray at all. He more or less invented the power chord and was undoubtedly an influence on the guitar stylings of likes of Dave Davies and Pete Townshend. He definitely deserves a mention, but I'm just not sure where because the timeline starts with the '60s and he pre-dated that.--Lairor 03:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I read the article and I noticed he must me mentioned. I'll do it at once.
[edit] Bassists
The third paragraph in the "Characteristics" section names several famous guitarists and drummers but no bassists. Does anybody think there should be a few bassists included in that section? Bshbass 20:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
- I definitely agree.
- I second that.
Done. HK51 21:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- As a bass player I heartily concur. Thanks to HK51. Raymond Arritt 00:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Quiet Riot
In The Second Era (1980s) it states that "Quiet Riot's Metal Health is the first album ever which reached #1 in the Billboard United States chart." Shouldn't it be "Quiet Riot's Metal Health is the first metal album ever which reached #1 in the Billboard United States chart."? But then again, if you deefine Led Zeppelin as metal, they had plenty of #1 albums...
[edit] Cleanup
This article contains lots of interesting material but needs quite a bit of work to improve its organization and grammar. I'll work on it from time to time -- please help if you can! Raymond Arritt 05:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- Someone reverted the cleanup tag for this article but I've reinstated it. As noted above it's an interesting article but much of the writing is really bad -- vague, redundant, and in some places it doesn't even make sense. Raymond Arritt 22:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Singers
Where it lists prominent guitarists and drummers, it should contain a list of singers, as the singers of hard rock had very shrill voices. 17:06 October 8, 2006 Presidentjlh (UTC)
Done. I hope everyone else agrees with it being there. HK51 22:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Led Zeppelin...
I believe that the fact that Led Zeppelin be counted as a heavy metal band is wrong. I base this statement on the fact that: Most of their songs deviate from the definition of heavy metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gumdropster (talk • contribs) 19:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
That is a question that will be debated forever. I personally have mixed feelings on Zeppelin's categorization. I consider them Heavy Metal, yet a lot of their stuff was more blues and folk oriented and not quite metal. However, it's hard to categorize Led Zeppelin.
[edit] Alice Cooper
It seems strange to call School's Out the first "shock rock" album, when it was preceded by Love It to Death and Killer ("Dead Babies"!), which both seem more in line with the term. -- Dan Clore
[edit] Black Rock
Let's face it. Hard Rock is mostly a good ol' boys club, despite the fact that rock has its roots in Black music (Chuck Berry anyone?) I think the fact that Living Colour had such wide success in the late 80s and early 90s in a genre dominated by White guys deserves some mention. Don't forget Funkadelic, Mother's Finest, Bad Brains, Fishbone, 24-7 Spyz, Sound Barrier, Follow For Now, King's X, Lucy Brown. (ALV)
[edit] Deep Purple
Despite being one of the first hard rock bands and still being around while most of their contemporaries have either disbanded or whatever, they are hardly mentioned other than a short mention of Ritchie Blackmore in the guitarist's section, neither is Ian Gillan or Ian Paice talked about anywhere in the whole article. Are we forgetting 'Child In Time' or 'Space Truckin'? --Aksnitd 06:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Also the album Deep Purple In Rock is not mentioned and it was one of the heaviest albums of the time in vocals guitar and drumming
[edit] Influential Bands
Guys, I feel that nobody seems to mention who has influenced hard rock. I mean there is the begginning of the article which mentions Link Wray, Jimi Hendrix, early hard rock songs, etc. However, I felt that it was too brief.
[edit] Examples
Can we come to some sort of consensus as to which guitarists/bass guitarists/drummers/singers get mentioned as examples? There were originally three examples in each catergory and over time anons and members alike have made the section look untidy by randomly adding and deleting their favourite hard rock guitarist/bass guitarist/drummer/singer etc. The section now feels far too listy and the amount of examples given is unnecessary.
My proposed examples for each:
- Guitarist: Jimi Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, Angus Young, Jimmy Page and Slash
- Bass guitarist: Phil Lynott, John Deacon, Gene Simmons and Geddy Lee
- Drummer: Cozy Powell, Tommy Lee and Roger Taylor
- Lead singer: Robert Plant, Freddie Mercury, Bon Scott and Steven Tyler
ĤĶ51→Łalk 22:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
why doesn't someone mention the members of Black Sabbath, considering they are mentioned so much. (Person89 02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC))
[edit] AC/DC
AC/DC does not play hard rock, they play rock'n'roll...not to doubt anyones information, but they say themselves, rock'n'roll, not metal, not heavy rock. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.222.154.100 (talk) 02:58, 15 December, 2006 (UTC)
- How did you come to that conclusion? AC/DC played a few rock and roll songs, but they are unmistakeably a hard rock band. Compare "Back in Black" with "Tutti Frutti" (by Little Richard) and you'll see what I mean. It doesn't really matter what the band thinks; they could call themselves a gangsta rap ensemble and the music press would still consider them hard rock. ĤĶ51→Łalk 19:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
While AC/DC always consider themselves rock 'n' roll, they are properly classified as hard rock. Just by listening, one can discern they have a fair amount in common with bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple, both of whom are prime examples of hard rock.--Aksnitd 14:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
they are also Aussies, therefore associating different connotations to words and phrases, like equating "rock and roll" to a good time or good music, not a musical genre. They might equate hard rock with a certain verisimilitude which the antics of Angus Young do not exhibit. Person89 02:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New Bands?
Why did the new bands section get deleted? i think it is important to know that Hard Rock is still being performed, the way this article is written it seems like it is a dead genre, but the two bands mentioned in that section (Top-Hat Mafia and Billy Talent) are prime examples of Hard Rock.
I, too, am disappointed that it got deleted. Velvet Revolver was a perfect example of how hard-rock still retains some popularity. I definetely think that we should be adding a section regarding hard-rock in the current era.Ags Rule 18:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous, who keeps deleting things on new bands? whoever it is isnt very helpfulTubyboulin 17:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
