Talk:Hata tribe

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No references have been provided on this dubious information regarding descent from "the Lost Tribes of Israel". In fact it says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_era#Kofun_society, that the Hata clan were descended from Qin Shi Huang with references to its claim. --Darthanakin 10:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you miss my citation of Ikuro Teshima? It's right above the unreferenced tag. Teshima is by no means a reliable source, but I think this is sufficiently inferred in the "Shinshukyo and Common Origin Theory" section. I explained that "most serious scholars have not jumped to the conclusion..." and intentionally phrased it to indicate that these are all "claims" of individual writers. Certainly not a theory entertained by the mainstream of scholarship, I still think it's important to mention that some new religions and other strange philosophies are based around this sort of thing. It's like including conspiracy theories in an article on JFK's assassination - it doesn't have to be true or widely accepted to be interesting and important in its own way. LordAmeth 19:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry mate, didn't notice that. But still right at the beginning of the article, it seems to suggest that this Lost Tribes of Israel theory is prevalent without giving sources, especially this

While some claim that the Hata were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, others believe the tribe was more likely from the steppes of Turkestan, traveling to Japan not along the Silk Road, but as slave labor for the construction of the Great Wall of China. Both groups agree on Semitic origins of the Hata, theorizing that they brought Ancient Hebrew culture to Japan at a very early time in its cultural development.

I find this highly ironic, given that Qin Shi Huang was the guy that had the wall built.--Darthanakin 16:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes yes, a very good point. Strange that references to Qin Shi Huang isn't even mentioned in the article; a major oversight on my part. Please do feel free to rephrase this as necessary; I shall leave myself a note to come back to this to add in information from other sources. LordAmeth 17:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish connections

As explained above, this is a minority opinion, and more than likely a myth. It is, however, not any pseudo-cultic thing I am trying to put forth, nor any sort of propaganda. It is an interesting and important aspect of the theories and ideas that surround this clan. If you read the section on Shinshukyo, you will see that there are very real groups that put forward this theory. Though they may be cults, and they may be completely incorrect about the Hata's origins, that does not make the information any less valid as historical, sociological information about the beliefs of certain New Religion groups. LordAmeth 15:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Firstly the use of the term 'tribe' is non standard. Conventionally, population groups of this type are refered to as 'clans', eg. Nakatomi clan, Yamato clan etc. This usage is doubly problematic in that it reinforces the eronious opinion that this group are one and the same as one of the lost tribes of hebraic mythology. This usage might be passable if it were suggested which of the biblical tribes the Hata are to be identified with.

After presenting this fringe opinion, the artical then procedes as though it were established and accepted fact. The suggestion then, that the Hebrew-Hata built the Great Wall of China as slave labourers belongs to the same genre of Jewish nationalist pseudo-history as the idea that the Pyramids of Giza were built using enslaved Hebrews.

The comment that the Hebrew-Hata acted as financial advisers to the imperial court asks for the reader's complicity in the stereotyping of hebraic (or in this case alleged hebraic) peoples as insinuating themselves into political power by controling finances. This is gravely cretinous. If you will not allow for the editing of this point then I will flag the entire article, though I am loath to do it as I am a fierce opponent of the use of the charge of anti-Semitism as a tool in policing debate.

Discussion of Kagome and the Star of David looks like an attempt to present this as evidence that the Hata were hebraic in origin. This is far, far too weak to let go even were citation provided.

As you admit, this (Hata=Hebrew) idea is a minority opinion. Given that, it is more appropriate to secondary entries or sub-articles rather than in the primary encyclopaedic entry (you'll notice I didn't remove it from elsewhere in the article).

I apologize if you think that I am pushing an opinion which I am not. I do not personally believe in their connection to the Jewish peoples. But it remains an established minority opinion, with lots of supporting evidence and lots of references in many texts, particularly those relating to New Religions, which are as valid an academic subject of research as anything else. If you think that my wording is misguiding, I invite you to please reword it to more carefully separate fact from theory. But please do not simply revert my edits; removing large swaths of information without consensus, particularly sourced information, from articles can be considered as vandalism. If you wish for me to provide further sources of other texts that make reference to this fallacy, I would be happy to do so.

As for the stereotyping comments about associating Jews with monetary management, I am Jewish and a strong opponent of anti-Semitic stereotyping. But that comment is not my own stereotype - it is that of Ikuro Teshima and the others who put forward this theory. Do you propose to remove from Wikipedia every article that involves Jewish accountants or businessmen because it serves to perpetuate a stereotype? LordAmeth 18:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply

I am perfectly confident that my logic is watertight. Your final question has a problem with what is termed in formal logic, the undistributed middle.

As I cannot appeal to any sense of logic here, I will instead appeal to your emotions.

"The Hata are said to have been adept at financial matters, and to have introduced silk raising and weaving to Japan. For this reason, they may have been associated with the kagome crest, a lattice shape found in basket-weaving which, by chance, bears strong resemblance to the Star of David."

Some people believe the Hata practiced bee worship and brought shamanic bee worshiping practices from mainland Siberia.

The Hata are said to have...introduced...weaving to Japan. For this reason, they may have been associated with the kagome crest, a lattice shape found in basket-weaving which, by chance, bears strong resemblance to honeycomb.

See how I made up a fact and then supported it with the most spurious and circular of evidence.

These ideas may appeal to Jewish nationalist sentiment ("Wow, our people dispersed all the way to Japan!") and Japanese New Religious Movements/Commercial pseudo-historic publishing ("Wow, our ancestors had connections to the Abrahamic tradition!"), but that alone will never be enough to elevate them to the status of good content. This idea is terribly argued, ignores mountains of facts opposing it (to resort to another Jewish stereotype, the Hata married their daughters off to men from other "tribes", most notably the Fujiwara. This is anathema to Jews - unless the whole of the Japanese people are Jewish. See the depths of ridicule these arguements descend to?) and is self evidently wrong.

By insisting on shoddy content like this in the primary encyclopedic entry, you do Wikipedia and the discipline of History a disservice.

Finaly, you behave as though this article were your published intelectual property. You ought not to, and it isn't.

I have no interest in arguing with you, and if you wish to remove reference to this interesting theory about the Hata, go ahead. It's not worth my time or energy to argue over something like this. I would encourage you, however, to take a look at some of the articles on the list of conspiracy theories, just to take one set of examples - just because something is blatantly incorrect does not make it any less interesting or worthwhile as a subject of study. Finally, I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this, but I do not appreciate insults to my intelligence or allegations that I'm not thinking logically. Let's try to be civil, okay? LordAmeth 10:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"just because something is blatantly incorrect does not make it any less interesting or worthwhile as a subject of study."

That's entirely true. The point you keep missing though is that in best practice, discussion of this kind of material should be under sub-headings, not at the beginning of the article.

I have moved all references to the Jews or the Lost Tribes to the Shinshukyo section. I encourage you, if you wish, to play with the wording to make it more obvious that this is far from a formally accepted historical theory. I hope to come back next week and expand upon the claimed potential relationship of this clan to Qin Shih Huangdi and to the origins of kyogen & noh, as claimed by Zeami Motokiyo. Sorry it took me so long to make these changes - I hope that they are satisfactory to you. LordAmeth 11:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)