Talk:Henry Morton Stanley

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Contents 1 About Leopold II 2 Zrinski waterfalls? 3 Violent continent? 4 Assuming the Stanley name 5 Pounds or Dollars? 6 Unionist 7 He was the inspiration for Kurtz in the film Apocolypse Now 8 Birthdate

[edit] About Leopold II

Whoever provided input here also added to Leopold II and it is nothing more than an angry diatribe that has no place in an encyclopedia. The cruel behaviour of certain nations and its leaders to its citizens and of those they conquered, is not limited to Europe. Exploitation and cruelty is well documented as far back as the early Egyptians etc.etc. and it is not necessary to use Wikipedia as a place to voice ones anger....DW

I respect the principle of "NPOV", but one can hardly remain neutral on King Leopold II, any more than one can on Adolf Hitler. Except that the former's victims where nearly all blacks and the latter's nearly all whites, what's the real difference?

I realize that being white isn't a necessity for being a monster; see Idi Amin or Mao Zedong. But portraying Leopold II in a negative light is not white-bashing or Belgian-bashing, it's just the truth.

207.69.140.35 15:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not clear what prompted this, but in any case, we have to be equally neutral on everybody, no matter how monstrous. If we open the door to "angry diatribes", then there's no way to stop everybody politicizing everything in WP. It's already a lot of work to keep the Kerry and Bush articles from descending into polemics. Stan 16:52, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What Stan said -- leaving aside the uselessness of declaring anyone who ever killed anyone as 'just like Hitler' -- a statement which shows a distinct lack of imagination as far as just how low the twentieth century's monsters, from Hitler to Stalin to Mao to Pol Pot stooped, as well as to just how successful each of these men were in their depradations -- the job of an encyclopedia is to inform people so that they can make their own decisions, not to decide for them. Otherwise, we might as well just have two articles -- "people the esteemed editors approve of" and "Hitler". jimwise

[edit] Zrinski waterfalls?

I can't find anything about the "Zrinski waterfalls" on the "River Kwil". Can anyone verify if they're still called that? And is the Kwil what we now call the Kwila?

Can't verify, but found the probable source [1]. - Hephaestos|§ 03:21, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Also couldn't verify but since I've been copyediting zillions of Croatian-related pages, this aroused my curiousity. After quite a bit of poking around on the internet, I found a few reference to Kwil, about the same number to Kwila or Kwilu, and finally in a round-about way, a whole bunch to Kouilou (none of which were particularly helpful). So then I looked it up in Britannica and was able to extract some actual information, including the fact that there are apparently MANY waterfalls on that river. I'm not going to keep going to try to find names for all of them. So I created Kouilou-Niari River and will start adjusting links. Elf | Talk 02:21, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Violent continent?

I pulled the bolded part of the following sentence out of the article, pending clarification or rewording:

"In later years he spent much energy defending himself against charges that his African expeditions had been marked by callous violence and brutality remarkable even in that violent continent."

It seems to me that NPOV can do without this addition. - Mark Dingemanse (talk) 20:22, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, the phrase is a little purple - it would be good to retain some of the sense, because by today's standards almost every expedition was pretty violent, and Stanley's were only notable for being more so than the usual. The whole subject of expedition operation might be articleworthy in fact, hmm. Stan 21:46, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Note that I only removed the bolded part. It think it is good to say something about the violent character of his expeditions; I only objected to Africa being designated 'that violent continent' - it sounds like Stanley himself. As for the articleworthyness: sure! It's an interesting subject. Makes me think of Wikiproject Countering Systemic Bias. We have too few articles like that. - Mark Dingemanse (talk) 22:30, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Assuming the Stanley name

As far as I can understand this book, HMS assumed the "Stanley" name from cotton trader Henry Stanley whom he met in New Orleans after his voyage to USA. --Dittaeva 11:37, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right. Change it. geert

[edit] Pounds or Dollars?

Just a nitpick, but would an American newspaper have told him to draw a thousand pounds? I'll crawl back under my rock, now. Mons-meg 15:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Based on Stanleys own accounts in How I Found Livingstone, he was told to draw pounds. / Ezeu 12:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I assume the currency to be drawn would depend on the currency most easily used where Stanley was, not where his employer was, right?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimwise (talk • contribs) 16:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Unionist

The text says he was a Unionist member of Parliament. Unionist? Was it the Scottish Unionist Party or was he a Tory (though then it would not be Unionist, would it?) Ben ^T/_C 12:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

He was a Liberal Unionist, sir. They (Liberal Unionists) were in an alliance with the Conservatives at that time, but they did not become 'merged' with them until in 1912.--Anglius 00:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] He was the inspiration for Kurtz in the film Apocolypse Now

You might know that Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' was the inspiration for the film Apocolypse Now. Well, if you read the book, and the notes that go with it, you'll find that the Marlon Brando/Kurtz character is based on an explorer who uses the darkest most violent methods in the pursuit of his aims. In the book its all about empire making and access to Ivory. Conrad wrote the book at the time when Stanley was doing his bit around Africa, and the notes, by Conrad biographers, suggest that he based his charecter on Stanley.

Stanley's gravestone in the church at Pirbright is massive - a 10 foot megalith that dwarfs everything around it. Also interesting is that as a local landowner he named the local streams and ponds after his discoveries in Africa.

17:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Wanderjahr0101==Served both sides in the U.S. Civil War?== How did that happen? There's an episode that deserves to be fleshed out, imho. --Davecampbell 02:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

In Hall's book, Stanley: An Adventurer Explored, it details the circumstances. From what I remember, he was a Welsh shopkeeper living in Arkansas (?) who got caught up in the adventurous promise of war, and joined the Confederacy. It is suggested he may have even joined to impress a local young belle. Stanley's first battle was at Shiloh, where he was promptly captured by the Union army. He was then shipped off to a P.O.W. prison in Illinois, where after living in disease and filth for a few weeks, he took the Union up on a bargain it offered to all the prisoners: sign on with the Union Army, and you will be set free at war's end. Although he was sentimentally attached to the South, as that was where he was living, he was a poor landless southerner, with no family ties and little interest for the Confederacy's economic dependence on slavery. So, Stanley marched out of prison as a Union soldier. Then he fell ill with dysentary he had picked up at the POW camp and was left by the side of the road to die by his unit. Obviously, he lived on, but this marked the end of Stanley's military career.

I think this sentence "discovered the Ruwenzori Range" should be changed to:

"was the first white man to see the Ruwenzori Range"

The Africans living around the Ruwenzori Range and Lake Edward were well aware that the mountains and lake existed before Stanley arrived on the scene. Thank you.

[edit] Birthdate

I have a photo from Kisangani (taken before the overthrow) of a bust of Henry Morton Stanley with the years 1840-1904 engraved on the column. I don't know who made the monument, but was this a mistake on their part, or was his year of birth under speculation? Thanks, Meateatingvegan 17:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)