Talk:Heruli
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[edit] Views
One person has written an excellent article on the Heruls (14.11.04) (at least much better than what was there), which Wiglaf seems to have deleted or replaced by the old artilce, which is really quite bad. Wiglaf seems to be very insistent on his views. Why is that? The modern literature really shows that a Scandinavian origin of the Heruls cannot be postulated on the basis of the historical sources. I would like to see the new article of 14.11 on the Wikipedia, which is accurate and balanced. Thanks Claudia:-)
- Dear Claudia, I am very sorry that you consider the article to convey my views. If you had read a little further down, you would have seen that I have only added info about Procopius. Moreover, thanks for confirming the veracity of the version I removed. We have had a lot of vandalism by anonymous users who remove the myths/histories provided by Procopius and Jordanes (considering your IP number, you are one of them). This is very much against the purpose of Wikipedia. You are free to edit the page as you wish as long as you don't arbitrarily remove information to fit your views (i.e. vandalizing the page). I will unwatch this article for a while and return in a few weeks. If the info about Procopius and Jordanes is gone, I will add it where I see fit, and then we can discuss my views and yours.--Wiglaf 15:31, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- First of all, I have no knowledge about this subject at all. All I can say relates only to customs on Wikipedia. Typically, when an article is "really quite bad", the first step in dealing with it is for those who see specific errors to correct them, hopefully in a way that is small and simple enough that others can easily view the difference and decide about it. If the errors are not solvable in this way, then, before replacing the whole or large parts of the article, the person who noticed the errors would explain them on the Talk page, and probably also include the new version, so it could be examined and critiqued before it replaced the original. Claudia,(you might also sign in if you don't mind, as it would make it easier to contact you), would you mind doing this with the new version of the article you refered to? (I applogize if this has already been done below, and I didn't understand it because, as I said, I am ignorent of this specific subject) Thanks! JesseW 04:44, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Quality of Heruli article
I have several times tried to improve the Heruli article by deleting speculative and outdated information about their supposed Scandinavian origins, their mastery of runes and their battle tactics. The first assertation is impossible to demonstrate on the basis of the available sources and should not be stated so firmly as some people seem to wish. They may have come from Scandinavia or northern Germany, but the fact is that we have no way of knowing. The assertation that the Heruls were rune masters who formed the elite of Scandinavia and that the Scandinavian title Jarl is derived from their name is simply wrong. The title Jarl is derived from an IE word for 'free man' and there is no evidence that the Heruls in south east Europe ever used runes. Finally, we know nothing about their battle tactics. Procopius, reports that the Heruls who served in the Roman army were typically employed as lightly armed infantry.
- Jarl did not mean "free man", it meant "chieftain". You're confusing the word with karl. You assert that there is no way of knowing their origins. You could begin with what early medieaval scholars considered to be their origins and you're closer than not knowing at all. Even though, a small number of German and American scholars question the Scandinavian origin of some Germanic tribes, modern scholarship still generally considers Southern Scandinavia (often including Northern Germany) to have been the origin of the Germanic tribes. If you disagree with some of the information, try to expand the discussion rather than removing what does not fit your picture of the Heruli.--Wiglaf 18:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
^
Certainly, the term Jarl became to mean chieftain, but the IE root is derived from eril, meaning free man. Your assertation that the writing of early medieval authors would automatically bring you closer to the truth is wrong. In many cases it takes you further from the truth as the recent controversial discussions of Jordanes and Procopius have shown. You really need to familiarise yourself with the academic literature when you want to discuss these question or even edit an article on the Heruls. Secondly, the assertation that the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia has been rejected by mainstream scholarship already some 30 years ago. Most recent in this line of research is the voluminous study by Prof. Udolph who refutes this assertation on linguistic grounds. Other work has shown that also on archaeological grounds a Scandinavian origin of the Germanic people has to be rejected. Thirdly, I think this is a dictionary not a discussion board. As professional historian I can contribute to this topic, but I cannot expand an article which is ridden with speculation and outdated information. (Anonymous contribution from un-logged-in 82.35.89.68, whose single recent edit can be inspected at theb page History)
- Thanks! It is good that you are a professional historian and consequently you would probably not mind answering these points:
- Can you provide any references about the Eril root, because it sounds very interesting? I have tried to look for it in my works of reference and it is oddly missing.
See for example, Krahe/Meid "Wortbildungslehre", or G. Neuman "Heruler - Philologisches, Der Name" in RGA, Letter H.
- Two German sources. Why does not for instance the AHD note this root in its extensive list of roots?--Wiglaf 18:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Moreover, you claims of rejection sound quite unfamiliar because mainstream archaeologists are very wary of connecting ethnicity to archaeological cultures. Even though, I have studied a lot of archaeology, I am quite unfamiliar with such discourse. Can you name more than one archaeologist who makes these rejections?
As you probably know, we can speak of Germanic only since the first sound shift of around 500BC. The first Iron age culture that can be linked with clearly Germanic culture is the Jastorf culture in North Germany. Please refer to the large body of Jastorf literature to glean the mainstream view on this.
- So what about the southern half of Scandinavia?--Wiglaf 18:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Udolph is one scholar. In what way does he represent modern linguistics? If you go to the Goth discussion Linguistlist, you'll see that your claims of rejection are spurious[1].
- If that was your single edit, why did you need to state it?
- I'd be grateful if you'd like to fill in on these questions.--Wiglaf 16:09, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Discussion groups are hardly the source from which to optain a qualified view. Please refer to the latest RGA entries on East Germanic, Germanic etc.
- The people at Linguistlist do not have less credibility than an anonymous contributor at Wikipedia.--Wiglaf 20:24, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
PS: Hooker (1996):
- Archaeologists put the geographical origin of the Germanic peoples in southern Scandinavia and northern Germany.
That is not very controversial. In the past scholars believed the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia today the evidence emanating from the work on the Jastorf culture combined with linguistic studies points more to Northern Germany, but for an author like Hooker is safer to include the whole region.
- You again claim that the Jasdorf culture is the only relevant part of the Pre-Roman Iron Age. I rest my case.--Wiglaf 18:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There, they developed a warrior culture that was essentially democratic in character. As they migrated south and east, this democratic warrior society developed into a kingship and, as they came in contact with the Romans and Romanized Celts, they developed further aristocratic classes among the warriors and nobility.[...] The Goths originally migrated from Scandinavia and from there migrated south into Europe and east into southern Russia (some of their descendants still live in the Crimean area). The reason for this migration are unclear, but the standard, default interpretation is that they were pressured by overpopulation.[2]
[edit] Moved here from Talk:Heruls
The title 'Heruliis' is wrong and should be changed to 'Heruls' or/and 'Eruli'. This people is usually called Heruls in the literature, but the Latin name Eruli is also widely used, while the form 'Heruliis' is a wrong mixture of the two names.
- I've moved it to Heruls, with a redirect at Eruli. But there is also a (larger) article at Heruli. These two articles should be merged, but I don't know under which article name. Eugene van der Pijll 10:54, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Removed text
I removed the following, since I couldn't confirm it, and it was questioned in the past. If there are any sources for this, please let me know. Quadell (talk) 19:09, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)
<!--is the following more than fantasy?-->Organized as "wolf-packs", each pack of no more than a dozen or so was lead by two older males, an alpha- and beta-wolf. Younger men (aged approximately 15-21) comprised the retinue of the two wolf-leaders. After their summer-long (from April 31 to October 31) training in military, genealogy, cultic practice, sexuality, and other items necessary to social order, the youths were initiated into full manhood when they had killed another man in battle, or had killed a wild boar or large bear in the hunt. Exclusively foot-soldiers, the Heruli were a nomadic tribe who used horses only for moving their camps. A particularly frightening tactic of the Heruli which amazed the Romans, was that they were so fast on foot that they would team up with a horse-riding warrior, hang on to the mane of the horse with their left hand, wield their swords with their right hand, and charge into battle, running as fast as the horse directly into the fray. Several of these names also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Uha ("Big One"), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous").
This text is complete fantasy. There is no historical source to support any of this. Even the personal names are made up.
I have restored my alleged "fantasy" along with the superb academic reference I drew it from. I also have included a complete list of all known "erilaZ" inscriptions, transcriptions, translations, and some commentary, to show that the names were not "made up". And I added all the classical sources at the bottom, with full references, since I have read and translated all of these from the Latin and Greek. Connell O'Donovan, UC Santa Cruz, odonovan@ucsc.edu
[edit] Recent text removal
An anonymous user recently deleted a lot of text without explaining why. I have no idea if the deleted text was accurate or inaccurate, but if anyone knows more than I do, please, fill me in. I'm not sure if the deletions should be reverted or not. Quadell (talk) 00:03, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
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- Think of them as pubescents with hockey sticks "accirentally" sweeping canned goods off the shelves of the Seven-Eleven. Wetman 00:10, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The removed text was entirely wrong. It reported speculative, outdated and simply wrong information about the Heruls. The current text is not ideal, but it is much stronger and much more reliable than the old version, which included wrong information about runic inscriptions, Herulic battle tactics etc.
[edit] Jordanes reference repeatedly erased
The following statement apparently offends Anonymous User:213.219.53.82 who has repeatedly suppressed it:
- The 6th century chronicler Jordanes reports a tradition that they had been driven out of their homeland long before by the Dani, which would have located their origins in present-day Denmark. Whether Jordanes was correct or not, the statement is a statement of fact. I won't reinsert it again. I expect some nationalist program at work here, not some advanced historical understanding. Wetman 15:47, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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- I have no idea why, but there are Scandinavians who have political and ideological problems with Jordanes, due to an exaggerated glorification of Scandinavia based on Jordanes in the past (see for instance this article Geatish Society). The reaction was severe and it still makes this field rather infected.--Wiglaf 20:07, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that the statement is wrongly interpreted. To be precise, the interpretation is long outdated. Scholars like H. Wolfram have shown that the statement does not refer to the distant past, but to some confused recent events, or according to Christensen was inserted for political reasons. At any rate, the statement says nothing about the origins of the Heruls. Secondly, if the statement was correct and had refered to ancient times, this would not place their origins in modern Denmark, since Dani likely lived mostly in souther Sweden and the Danish isles, but not on Jutland at the time. (Anonymously posted by anon. User:213.219.53.82)
- The problem, quite to the contrary, is that Jordanes' statement has been suppressed, not that it is wrongly interpreted here at Wikipedia. This 6th century historian's errors would be discussed rather than suppressed by any honest contributor. Dishonest justification of a dishonest action. --Wetman 14:38, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- It is a fact that both Jordanes and Procopius talked about a Scandinavian origin. A small number of modern scholars may question this, but it is dishonest to remove such information, as Wetman says.--Wiglaf 18:34, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- BTW, Wolfram sounds like he is presenting a hypothesis that is even harder to prove than the Scandinavian origins.--Wiglaf 20:26, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Agreed. In areas where we know as little as we do about the Heruli, every scrap of primary evidence should be presented, whether it seems garbled or not. Then follow this with critical commentary on those scraps. The summary by User:213.219.53.82 indicated that Wolfram has one theory and Christensen as another. The proper course, if these theories have any following, is to improve the article by summarizing those theories. Also, nowhere in the article is Jutland mentioned. I don't see the relevance of that point. Jallan 14:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] "Harii" equal "Heruli"?
This text is a slender personal fantasy, not worthy of Wikipedia: Plinius and Tacitus (circa 95 CE) both mention Suebian tribes called the Harii or Hirri. That the Harii and the Heruli are basically synonymous is strongly evidenced by the fact that in the 500s when Salinga, daughter of the last Heruli king Rhodoulph (Honor-Wolf?), married Wacho, king of the Lombards, as his third polygynous wife, she named her son by him Walt-Hari - modern Walter - "ruler of the Hari/marauders". See both Prokopios and Paulus Diaconus for this episode. Also note that the common name Harold is identical as well, from Hari-Walt.) I have not removed it, however, as interfering in this article seems hopeless. But why not an article Harii? --Wetman 21:01, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Slender personal fantasy, not worthy of Wikipedia"???! That's really offensive and uncalled for. Such comments make working with Wikipedia much more of a challenge for scholars than it ought to be. In the academic world, we try to keep our criticisms less personal. If Wetman has evidence to the contrary, please reveal it; I welcome it. Otherwise keep your rudeness to your self. I've been exhaustively researching the Heruli for over nine years here at UC Santa Cruz, carefully reading and translating the more than 30 Greek and Latin classical sources that refer to them, plus reading Scandinavian, German, British and American academic commentary. While other reputable scholars have only speculated a connection between the Harii and the Heruli, to date I'm the only one who has uncovered textual proof that this might actually be accurate. To have my research trivialized by being called "slender personal fantasy" really angers me. --Connell, 2 Feb 2005
- Why does A equal B? is the intelligent question. Why is this personal fantasy, jumping about in 500 years of unrelated history to reach unwarranted amateurish conclusions (or is there some printed material on which this original "research" is based?) not to be considered "slender? My problem is with the zany text, not its inventor. --Wetman 04:37, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
My question is, why doesn't A of 95 CE equal A of 520 CE? Your ad hominem attack only reveals your own amateurishness. My conclusion is hardly "zany" for attempting to bridge a mere 450 years (in a roughly similar geographical area: "Germania"). I cite the preeminent, Dumezilian Indo-Europeanist and brilliant Estonian linguist, Jaan Puhvel, who postulated a Proto-Indo-European root *Hwergh-, "strangle", by comparing the Hittite word for wolf, hurkel of 1600 BCE with the Germanic word for wolf and "strangler", warg, found in the fifth century CE Germanic legal document, the Lex Salica. (See Jaan Puhvel, "Hittite hurkis and hurkel," Die Sprache 17 (1971) pp. 42-45 and Mary R. Gerstein's highly regarded work based on Puhvel's "slender personal fantasy", "Germanic Warg: The Outlaw as Werwolf", in Larson and Puhvel's Myth in Indo-European Antiquity, 1974, University of California Press, pp. 131-156.) Puhvel bridges TWO THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED years, about as many miles, and only distantly related Indo-European ethnoi, and his conclusion stands; but my speculation is "unwarranted" and "zany" for looking at a mere 450 year difference, with Tacitus's Harii being nearly identical to Salinga's Hari? I can only conclude from Salinga's naming act that the last acknowledged Heruli princess believed that her son was "ruler of the Hari" (rather than "ruler of the Heruli"), otherwise she would not have bothered naming him that. Speculative? Absolutely. "Slender personal fantasy"? Not by a long shot. --Connell, 7 March 2005
- Wise users of Wikipedia always read the Discussion pages. --Wetman 00:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Indeed they should!--Connell, 24 March 2005
- And they have. Original research is against Wikipedia policy. Section on Harii has been moved to the relevant article.--Wiglaf 14:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, the Premier Prosecutor Poobah of the 'Pedia Purity Police has spoken. I submit and humbly remove all my research. Connell
[edit] List of Runic Inscriptions
This article (currently at 31KB) is a bit overlong and quite frankly I fail to see the value of the list of Runic inscriptions attributed to the Heruli. That material should either be deleted or set out into a seperate article if it truly is worthy of being included in an encyclopedia. --165.247.182.182 01:39, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Ekerilaz
I won't discuss the rest of the article, but this section is in my view substandard. First, it is far too speculative. The meaning of the noun erilaz is uncertain. There is no consensus on it's meaning or ethymology, though there is some small agreement that it designs one in knowledge of runes. I myself would be very interested to know some more of "the strongest academic evidence to date" of it meaning marauder and even more so in how it connects with a hypothetical wolf-warrior brotherhood. --Asdfgl 17:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Harjaz
Basing any hypothesis on the element harjaz in personal names is ridiculous. It was a common element in Germanic personal names, and I strongly doubt that people such as Ohthere had any connection with either the Harii nor the Heruli. Here is a link [3] to an article on Scandinavian personal names, for anyone who is interested in the use of the name harjaz.--Wiglaf 15:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The "lost" text on the homosexuality of the Heruli
The text below seems to have been deleted by an anon on June 8th of last year, without explanation or discussion on the talk page. Fortunately some of it was still in Google so I could trace it. It seems to be well referenced and annotated. Is there any reason why I should not restore it?
--Homosexuality of the Heruli--
According to Procopius, bishop of Caesaria, the Heruli practiced a warrior-based, ritual homosexuality. In his De Bello Gothico, Prokopios is scandalized by the fact that "kai mixeis ouch hosias telousin, allas te kai andron" (Greek), or "and they have sex contrary to the ends of divine law, even with men" (VI. xiv. 36). Procopius does not elaborate upon this brief statement. However, he also noted that the young squires of the "Erouloi" (Greek for Heruli) go into battle without even a shield to protect themselves; once proven in battle, their Heruli masters then permitted them to carry one in battle, signifying their entrance into full manhood. Historian of homosexuality, David Greenberg, believes that in this passage, Prokopios implied that the homosexuality practiced by the Heruli was ritualistic and initiatory in nature, for "pederasty was practiced in connection with the transition from youth to manhood" in the early Germanic "men's societies (Männerbünder)" as well as being common to all Indo-European cultures. Again, this initiatory pederasty is identical to the practices of the closely-related Suebian tribe, the Taifali, as reported by Ammianus Marcellinus (31.9.5). (See Greenberg's The Construction of Homosexuality, 1988, p. 243.)
As Russian scholar Askold Ivancik (see section above) notes, "The formula of the Indo-European law, according to which the murderer 'became a wolf', is certainly linked to these notions [of heroic youthful initiants being considered dogs or wolves]. This formula was conserved in several Indo-European traditions, notably the Hittite, Germanic, and Indo-Iranian. It has given birth to a new sense, 'criminal, outlaw', attributed to the word 'wolf'. The notions of man-wolves and homosexuality, very prevalent in masculine societies, may explain the usual comparison in the Greek tradition between the 'erastes' [active homosexual lover] and the wolf." ("Les Guerriers-chiens", p. 313)
Several of the names of Erilaz we know from runic inscriptions (see below) also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Muha ("Marsh", muck), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave" or "Little Wiggler"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous"). In addition, one of the runic inscribers notes that he himself is a thewaz, squire or boy-servant of a warrior.
Ritual, warrior-based pederasty (erotics between an adult and a youth) seems to have been common to all Indo-European peoples; variant forms of ritual homosexuality are well-documented and were particularly institutionalized in Sparta, with the nearly invincible Sacred Band of Thebes, among the Dorians and Athenians, the Scythians (who were Indo-Iranian), the Celts, and others.
The Weerdinge bog bodies of the Netherlands, who were found wrapped in each other's arms, were initially thought to have been a 2,000 year old heterosexual couple. However, both adult bodies are bearded so testing was recently performed and conclusively showed that the two intimates were actually both male. DNA testing by Dr. Carney Matheson's team at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada has proven that the two men were not closely genetically related maternally or paternally, so the two men are not brothers, as some scholars have proposed. See http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/weerdingemen.html for a fuller treatment of these bog bodies. While the two intimates cannot conclusively be proved to have been Harji/Heruli, circumstantial evidence indicates it is quite possible. That two adult males (one apparently somewhat younger and smaller than the other) were carefully laid to rest by local people in a marsh in an intimate embrace for eternity in ancient Germania does reflect many cultural aspects consistent with those of the Heruli.
Haiduc 01:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like a vandal's deltion to me. This article needs closer supervision. --Wetman 06:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
After all the bitching from Wetman and Wiglaf I removed my research, since it's "original" and therefore against Wikipedia policy. I'd appreciate it if you removed it again. Thanks - Connell
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- As they say, you cannot step into the same river twice. I am sorry you're upset over the treatment you received here originally. My own experience of this project is that the individuals involved are undergoing a constant process of growth, paralleling in a way the development of the encyclopaedia. I for one know that I have learned an enormous amount by being here, learned to give people their space, learned to let go of some of my own preconceived notions. We all have to live together and reach some kind of an understanding, and the rules of this game work very well to encourage just that. Perhaps if you were willing to re-engage the process you might find that it is more workable than what you remember.
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- In what regards the restored paragraphs, first of all I can't identify that much there that could be claimed to be original research. Most of the important points seem to be buttressed with references to published works. The minor flourishes are not worth debating over and seem to me to fall under that large category called "editorial discretion." As for deleting it, I am not willing to join battle with anyone, pro or con. I restored it because it fits, it belongs to no one because all our work here is gift based and no different from throwing flowers into a mountain stream. Please do not be mad at me if I say to you, as an editor and a friend: "Let go." Haiduc 23:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Deletion of part of the Homosexuality item
The following text was deleted by me. Explanations in which ancient names appear to have a "homosexual innuendo" have no purpose in a encyclopdia
Several of the names of Erilaz we know from runic inscriptions (see below) also have homosexual innuendo, such as Hrozaz ("Agile"), Muha ("Marsh", muck), Sa Wilag ("The Wily"), Wagigaz ("Audacious"), Wiwila ("Little Slave" or "Little Wiggler"), and Ubaz ("Mischievous"). In addition, one of the runic inscribers notes that he himself is a thewaz, squire or boy-servant of a warrior.
Furthermore I deleted the reference to the weerdinge peatbodies since they bear no relevance to the Heruli. If you want to have an article on homosexuality amongst barbarian european tribes start a seperate article. I also deleted reference to Askold Ivancik. Again, start a seperate article.
Furthermore I deleted this.
Ritual, warrior-based pederasty (erotics between an adult and a youth) seems to have been common to all Indo-European peoples; variant forms of ritual homosexuality are well-documented and were particularly institutionalized in Sparta, with the nearly invincible Sacred Band of Thebes, among the Dorians and Athenians, the Scythians (who were Indo-Iranian), the Celts, and others.
and this
Again, this initiatory pederasty is identical to the practices of the closely-related Suebian tribe, the Taifali, as reported by Ammianus Marcellinus (31.9.5).
Fantasy. And a very bad one, I might add. Seems apologetic to pederasts.
Agreed, it's no coincidence either (see the wikipedia pages on pederasty) there is no proof of so called pederasty among the Celts, only a couple of claims by Greeks. If we are to take that at face value I guess we have to believe Herodotus description of dog sized ants. Caesar was similarly notoriously inaccurate (slanderous) in several of his claims about the Celts. This bit should be removed it is extremely disengenuous.
[edit] Deletion of same-sex paragraph
After rereading it seems to me this should be rewritten as a general article on what Procopius and other mention about the Heruls. If this is not done we better delete the same-sex paragraph
- Deletion of material was no more defensible than you writing an article on what you think of Procopius. I have reduced material to the indisputable essentials. Haiduc 11:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
