Template talk:Hero Cities

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Contents 1 Order 2 Do we really need this template? 3 Best way out 4 Divisive template

[edit] Order

Since we are listing the cities in chronological order, shouldn't we at least specify the years or make a note that the order is indeed chronological? To an uninformed person the list in its current form simply looks like a bunch of unsorted links.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I reflected on this issue before making my edits, but then discarded the idea of listing years as it would presumably incumber the page and make it too heavy. I would like this template to be as decluttered as possible. If you think otherwise, you are welcome to implement your suggestions. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 14:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should add a small footnote or a subheader line specifying the sort order? It shouldn't clutter the template too much, but the template will, of course, lose some if its clean crisp look. I don't really know how to best do it either.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let's hope that some template-savvy editor will help us! :) --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do we really need this template?

It looks like this template annoys many users, especially Kievans. Do we really expect many people using this template for navigation? Maybe a category would be sufficient? It is just one more click for navigating?

Can we substitute the Soviet Union Flag with the Golden Star? The usual symbol for the Hero Cities is the Golden Star not the Red Banner. abakharev 13:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

As I commented to Ghirla, I'mnot sure this template is necessary, but it's hardly a bad template either. The fact it duplicates a category completely is not in its favor, though. Circeus 16:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am a Kievan and I am not annoyed by this template. I know many Kievans and the view that the award given to the city for its role in defeating the Nazism is offensive or even "annoying" would simply bemuse or puzzle most of us. There is indeed a debate in Ukraine on the role of the non-Soviet (and even anti-Sovet) resistance which is now reevaluated but only the holders of the rare and extremist views consider the Nazi defeat "annoying". One thing is to characterize the Soviet regime and its history properly, including the Stalinist terror. Quite another is to spit on the memory of those who gave their lives to defend Ukraine from the Nazi scum and those few who are still alive and get the highest public regard from the Kievans. Here are few images of those heroes who survived to the modern times[1][2][3] and here[4][5][6] are the pictures with the "annoyed" and "offended" Kievans. --Irpen 07:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The discussion has nothing to do with disagreement over the award. It is discussed whether the redundance of the template and category:Hero Cities of the Soviet Union makes it pertinent to nominate the template to deletion. Circeus 22:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I simply responded to the puzzling statement that the future of this template should be based on the dubious "fact" that it somehow "annoys Kievans". It could only possibly annoy few fringe elements in Kiev as the view of the overwhelming majority in Kiev is quite an opposite one. That said, I agree that Soviet flag is an unnecessary and unwarranted politization and replacement it by a HSU star seems a good idea. We can also discuss the redundance issue too. I can see the argument of the cat duplication. In that case, the discussion should reduce to the evaluation of how important is the HC award for Kiev overall. We may end up with the conclusion that its importance does not warrant it in the article itself. However, the content of the tl is not disputed except perhaps the USSR flag. As such, keeping it in the articles while the discussion is ongoing seems only fare as it would give it prominence and more opinions. --Irpen 04:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Best way out

I think the best way is to code the template such that it has the hide option, that way it takes less space and has less prominance. I also agree on Irpen's remarks about Kievans overwhelming opinion: [7] including some intersting images [8]. I think it defines how Kievans feel about their glorious Soviet past. --Kuban Cossack 23:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with you. —dima ^/sb.tk/ 00:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hide option is fine with me as well. However, for the record, I would like to add that the last image linked by Kazak points out to the elements in Ukraine which are as much on the fringe as those who find the award "annoying". The majority of Ukrainians firmly reject both the Stalinist appologism and the nationalist revisionism of history. As a very tolerant and friendly nation, the Ukrainians in the overwhelming majority have very little to do with such extreme views. --Irpen 04:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Divisive template

Kiev, October 14, 2006: [9], [10], [11]. 19:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)