Talk:Holiness

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This article should cover a lot more - both in existing sections and particularly on other religions and denominations (e.g. Orthodox Christianity, modern Jewish groups, Islam, Hinduism, etc) as well as general anthropological theories of the development and significance of holiness in religion. Anyone know anything relevant? --81.107.215.192 11:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC) sorry, that's --ADMH 11:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link/link spam

I reverted the addition of an external link to "Holiness Debate" that an anonIP had been adding to various spiritual/religous articles. The bears no direct relationship to the article; and by the contributions history, this appears to be a case of external link spam. However, if this is a legitimate addition, please comment and revert back. — ERcheck (talk) @ 03:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Holiness by David Hall

Intro. Definition of Holiness: Holiness is the character quality of a person who is holy, consecrated, morally clean, pure, not defiled.

Another word for holiness is godliness. We were made in the image of God. So we are meant to express or show others what God is like. Because we don’t have the same nature of God, we can’t do that through the nature areas we talked about. (We’ll never be all powerful or infinite, no matter how hard we try.) But we can reflect God by developing our character, so that morally we look more and more like God.

1. God wants YOU to be holy

Holiness is not optional – Hebrews 12:14 - Try to live peacefully with everyone, and try to live holy lives, because if you don't, you will not see the Lord. Relationships can be difficult. Some people we can easily get along with. Others are very difficult for us to get along with.

Others will be teaching you a lot more on relationships than I have time to, but let me make this comparison for you. Relationships between people are like a bridge. Somebody might close the gate on their end of the bridge. We can’t control that. But we can be sure that the gate is open on our end of the bridge.

Holiness is for you – When I was growing up my concept of holiness was a little old lady with her hair pinned up in a bun. I had a difficult time accepting that holiness was something God expected of me. Maybe you think that holiness is for people like Billy Graham or Benny Hinn or Cho Yung Ghi… But the reality is, God wants ALL of his followers to be holy. Romans 6:14 - Certainly, sin shouldn't have power over you because you're not controlled by laws, but by God's favour.

Holiness in an unholy world – The world seems to be getting increasingly evil. Morality seems to no longer be PC (“politicly correct”). American, New Zealand, and most western nations are struggling to build jails and prisons big enough to keep up with all the offenders. John 17:15 - I'm not asking you to take them out of the world but to protect them from the evil one.

Holiness and joy – If joy is not a characteristic that you and others can easily see in your life, then perhaps it’s time to ask ourselves if we really have God’s approval? Romans 14:17 - God's kingdom does not consist of what a person eats or drinks. Rather, God's kingdom consists of God's approval and peace, as well as the joy that the Holy Spirit gives.

2. Because God is holy

God’s holiness - 1 Peter 1:15 - But because the God who called you is holy you must be holy in every aspect of your life. 16 - Scripture says, "Be holy, because I am holy." Wow. This verse is quite a challenge to me. It’s one thing to develop holiness in my life. It’s another thing to develop holiness “in every aspect of my life”. And the measuring stick is not comparing my life with someone else’s. The measuring stick is comparing my morality with God’s. I know I’ve still got quite some way to go.

Jesus’ holiness – We have been called, appointed and commissioned to be ambassadors for the Lord. Imagine if you were asked to be the official ambassador of South Korea to New Zealand, how would it affect you?

2 Corinthians 5:20 - Therefore, we are Christ's representatives, and through us God is calling you. We beg you on behalf of Christ to become reunited with God. 21 - God had Christ, who was sinless, take our sin so that we might receive God's approval through him.

The Holy Spirit is obviously holy.

3. How we can be holy

Holiness involves a spiritual battle - Romans 7:21 So I've discovered this truth: Evil is present with me even when I want to do what God's standards say is good. This section of scripture is also very challenging. The apostle Paul describes a very real spiritual battle that he struggled with. If he struggled with being all God wanted him to be, do we think we will have any less of a struggle?

God helps us in that spiritual battle - Romans 6:11 - So consider yourselves dead to sin's power but living for God in the power Christ Jesus gives you. Paul does not leave us feeling helpless or hopeless. Rather he shows us that victory over sin and the devil is possible. He provides a key.

Obedience is key - Romans 8:13 - If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live. It is a matter of the will. Do you want to live defeated or do you want to live in victory over the power of sin and the devil? The key is making the choice to obey God rather than to yield to the devil.

Stop Sinning - Colossians 3:5 - Therefore, put to death whatever is worldly in you: your sexual sin, perversion, passion, lust, and greed (which is the same thing as worshiping wealth). Paul gets pretty specific. Allow the Holy Spirit to bring his search light to your heart. The devil is full of condemnation. He says you’re no good. God doesn’t work that way. He loves you. But he doesn’t love your sin. So he will focus on one thing at a time, so you can get rid of it from your life. So that sin no longer controls you.

Personal Discipline - 1 Timothy 4:7 - Don't have anything to do with godless myths that old women like to tell. Rather, train yourself to live a godly life. Train yourself to live a godly life. Have you been involved in sports? If you are going to go far in any sport it will take time, discipline, training. Maybe you’ve watched some movies or tv programs about sports heroes. They can only give a glimpse of the hard work, the sacrifice, the training over and over again to become the best. Paul uses such words to help us understand what it takes to develop holiness in our life.

Example of the Polynesian long-boat races. Many villages enter. The team that wins is invariably the team that took off more from work, moved out of their homes, and into a common room where they could eat and sleep together, laugh and work hard together.

4. Areas of holiness

Holiness in you body - 1 Corinthians 9:26 So I run-but not without a clear goal ahead of me. So I box, but not as if I were just shadow boxing. 27 Rather, I toughen my body with punches and make it my slave so that I will not be disqualified after I have spread the Good News to others.

Have any of you seen any of the Rocky movies? Sylvester Sylone plays Rocky Balboa, the Itilian Stalion who works hard. He gets punched around, but he’s got incredible stamina. These movies came out many years ago, but after many years Rocky VI is about to come out. I haven’t seen it, so I can’t tell you if it’s clean or fit for family viewing. But if it’s like the old Rocky movies, I through V, it will give you a bit of a glimpse of what Paul is talking about for us, but on the spiritual battle, not physical.

Holiness in your spirit - 2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, we need to cleanse ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit and live a holy life in the fear of God.

When something is said in the Bible once, it’s important, and we need to obey it. But when something is repeated over and over again, like this need to by holy, we really need to take it very seriously, if we’re serious about being a follower of our Lord.

Holiness and your will - Philippians 2:12 My dear friends, you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I'm absent. In the same way continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13 It is God who produces in you the desires and actions that please him.

So many Christians prefer to ignore this verse. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”? Come on Paul, whatever happened to your emphasis on grace? Same writer. Same Paul. Same Bible. Same God. Same Holy Spirit inspiring the writer. No you can’t buy salvation. You can’t earn it. Salvation is a gift. But here we are clearly told that we need to continue to work out our salvation. Yes, there is a sense in which Jesus purchased our salvation some 2000 years ago, and we were saved when we invited Jesus into our hearts and repented of our sins. But we’re not in heaven yet. There is also a sense in which you and I are still to be in the process of working out – not paying for, nor trying to earn – but working out our salvation.

Maybe it would be helpful to define the word salvation. Salvation means: deliverance from the power and effects of sin.

So understanding that definition, unless you have arrived at perfection (anybody here already arrived at perfection?), unless you are no longer tempted to sin (anybody here never tempted to sin any more?), then Paul is right, there is still a need to “work out” your salvation.

Holiness and faith – Hebrews 11:8 Faith led Abraham to obey when God called him to go to a place that he would receive as an inheritance. Abraham left his own country without knowing where he was going.

As we live by faith and obey what God tells us to do, his holiness is developed more and more in our lives.

David Hall 203.173.191.150 08:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Etymology and concept" section removed. Etymology moved to introduction.

"Etymology and concept" is an extremely confusing section. On the one hand it gives the etymology of the word, then it goes on about psychology and the idea of "individuation", which is not the same as "holiness" (except that "holy" is derived from a word which used to mean "whole"). That the idea of individuation and wholeness is not the same as holiness is borne out by the fact that we do not use "whole" and "holy" interchangeably. The concept of holiness persists in modern times quite independently of anything psychologists may theorise. As an example, there is no psychological principle that determines that an individuated person cannot be wholly evil. The individuation idea is so inappropriate to the section in which it appears, both textually and conceptually, that I have little doubt that it was copied directly from some psychology source. I have therefore removed the whole section, since it has no function other than the Jungian individuation psychology bit, and moved the etymology to the introductory section. It may be appropriate to address the psychological equivalent of holiness in a separate section (e.g. "Holiness as a psychological construct"), but not as "etymology and concept". --Seejyb 22:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holy from Holly?

References to "holy" as a derivation of "holly" on Google start with the Wikipedia itself, followed by sites advocating that much of Christianity is unoriginal and drawn from paganism.