Talk:Hostess bar
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I think this should be merged with the Host Bar article, using "hostess bar" as the title as they are the more common and established of the two. Drcwright 03:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Don't think so. It looks like "host club" is pretty much a Japan phenomenon and doesn't represent a world view. Whereas hostess bars are in many different countries.
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- Oh. If so, then I'm with ya. I just assumed this was referring to hostess bars in Japan. There are other countries where hostess bars are common (besides Japanese ones in other countries, of course)? What countries?
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- There doesn't really seem to be enough to keep the Host Club article on its own. The article is also poorly written. Written properly, it can fit in this article.
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[edit] merged
I merged host club into this. Did some copyediting, still needs a lot more. And more content. Drcwright 01:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] History, health, cultures, etc.
This article needs some content on the history of host(ess) bars, as well something on the possible health effects of such a line of work. Also, some mention of the different countries in which they are prominent Drcwright 03:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lots of Problems
I don't know if people are following naming conventions, but "hostess bar" is not the right term. It's "hostess club." Second, there's a difference between ホステスクラブ and キャバクラ, the former being classier, the latter being trashier. (You're more likely to get explicit sexual talk (猥談), more revealing clothing, and greater tolerance for light fondling in a キャバクラ than in a ホステスクラブ.) (How do I know these things? I was a salaryman in Japan.) There's also another type of establishment called a "snack," which is far more common than either hostess clubs or kyabakura. They're all similar, though, and should probably be grouped under 水商売.
A few other problems:
- Strip clubs have touts. Hostess clubs don't (male or female).
- Hostess clubs have male bartenders and male waiters. While all three (hostess clubs, "snacks," and kyabakura) have a "mama-san," only in a "snack" is she the one pouring the drinks.
- Douhan is something more experienced girls do. A good mama-san won't let a wet-behind-the-ears newbie go out alone with a male customer.
- Customers can choose the girl they want any time they want ... for a fee (it's called 指名料).
- Host clubs exist everywhere, not just Tokyo, and Kabukicho is famous for things other than host clubs.
Note that none of these above are 100%. Each establishment has its own rules and its own style. The above are general guidelines for definitions.
Oops! Forgot to sign. Madler 18:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- I was viewing the use of hostess bar to include ホステスクラブ and キャバクラ and スナックバー. This is mainly because I asked my girlfriend what the difference between "hostess club" and "snack bar" and she said they're (basically) same thing. I asked her because she's been a hostess and owned her own hostess bar (Japanese, not a foreigner). However, the nuances between them should be explained – either in this "catch-all" article, or in the mizu shobai (水商売) article (which itself needs help from a more informed contributor). Drcwright 17:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't think I've ever heard the term "snack bar" (just "snack"), and the problem with the three is that they are basically the same thing, but there's no general term covering them all, except for 水商売, which is too general a term, covering an entire Venn diagram of overlapping industries, sub-cultures, and nocturnal wanderings. So, what would you even call an article like this?
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- That Gordian knot aside, I think the article needs some revision. Would you (=Drcwright and whoever else) mind? (I wouldn't be able to do it before January, though.) Madler 18:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I will try to work on it over the next week, but I'm moving back on the 29th and leaving my laptop for repairs in Canada. I've worked on it so far, but it's still in pretty bad shape. What it also needs is the role these establishments play in business and social life. I didn't really hit up the hostess scene when I lived there before (and probably won't this time round) so I'm not really sure of the difference between a hostess club and a snack. I did find a good article though that I think can be of value World of hosts and hostesses. One important question I think that needs to be addressed though is what to call the article. Is hostess bar good enough? Or should it all be under mizu shobai (which itself needs work). One thing for certain, I don't think they necessitate separate articles. I'm leaning toward putting them all under mizu shobai, however that would discount any dicussion of "hostess bars" in other countries (ex: Korea). Drcwright 01:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I would say there is quite a distinction between a "snack" and a "hostess bar". The "snack" bar is usually a smaller institution, pretty much a small room with a bar with the mamasan and possibly another waitress, and probably owned and ran by the mamasan. The mamasan, usually conservatively dressed will stay behind the bar and talk to the customers from there. A hostess bar is bigger, with a bigger selection of (preferably scantily dressed) waitresses/hostesses that come to the table to talk to the customer. The ownership of a hostess bar is usually murkier than that of a snack.
- Of course this is an archetypical delineation (based on my own observations, too), and in real life anything between these two is possible, but saying that a hostess bar and a snack are basically the same is way off, IMO. I'd say putting all of this under the "mizu shoubai" article as suggested would be a good start. The mizu shoubai article as it is now would direly need a clearcut history vs. present time distinction, and snacks, hostess bars and kyabakura can then be dealt with in the present time part of the article, and the onsen geisha and the like in the history part.
- Just a question out of personal interest: when exactly did the kyabakura start popping up? Last time I was to Japan was four years ago, and I don't remember them being around at the time. Or did I just miss them? TomorrowTime 15:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge into mizu shobai
Anyone else (dis)agree with merging this into the mizu shobai article? Discuss on mizu shobai talk Drcwright 23:36, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
