Talk:Hungarian alphabet
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[edit] szóvégi H
László legutóbb átírta a bejegyzésemet.
[edit] méh
| H | /h/ | 1. [ ɦ ] 2. ∅ 3. [ x ] 3. [ ç ] | 1. when in intervocal position. 2. not rendered usually when in final position méh /meː/ 'bee', cseh /tʃɛ/ 'Czech (noun/adj.)' 3. seldom in final position, such as in doh 'dampness', méh 'uterus' 4. seldom, such as in ihlet 'inspiration', pech 'bad luck' (loanword from German) |
A különbség az, hogy én a méh 'uterus' jelentésű szót is a néma H-s szavakhoz soroltam, ő pedig a [ x ]-esekhez.
Szerintem ez nem a "hivatalos" ejtése. Eleve, tudtommal veláris ("magas") magánhangó után a magyarban csak [ ç ] jöhet, már ez is gyanút kelt.
Szívesen hallanám mások véleményét a méh 'uterus' jelentésű szó helyes kiejtéséről. Orvos vélemények előnyben.
Köszi.
I have never heard it pronounced without the ending [x] in the "uterus" sense (not that this matters to the "official" pronunciation, but I have no better argument). Think about the pronunciation of all the possible compound words, e.g. "méhnyak", "méhszáj", "méhfal", "méhlepény", and compare "méhviasz", "méhkaptár", "méhraj" where the word is used in the "bee" sense. KissL 15:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] pech
László, a pech-et pedig kivenném a példák közül, mert nem a H betű ejtésére példa, hanem a [ ç ] hang létére. Remélem egyetértesz.
-- Szabi 10:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
You're right, I screwed up that one. I'll take it out now. KissL 15:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
- So how is pech pronounced again? I don't read Hungarian, so I don't understand the above. And how is the digraph <ch> as in monarchia usually pronounced in Hungarian? --Iceager 01:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
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- AFAIK pech is pronounced [pɛç]. <ch> and <h> are just two different spellings for the same phoneme /h/ which has several allophones in certain positions (see above). /Perhaps <ch> is more often pronounced [x] or [ç] because it appears more frequently in "special" environments, eg in final position./ --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 21:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I thik it "ch" same as like chunoi same dialect pronounce hard same say 'unoi. But i dont know why? Elder_sun
[edit] Template
Does anyone else think that the whole Hungarian language area needs new templating (especially the alphabet part). I think we should base it on the Greek alphabet. It looks good. Any comments? somody 00:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pron(o)unciation
Ehm, brit angollal az pronOUnciation.... translation: "erm, in British English it is spelt pronOUnciation...." 85.248.66.2 22:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Those guys over there in Cambridge don't think so. KissL 10:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pronouncing a and á
A and Á are not the short and long versions of the same sound! While A is indeed /ɑ/ (at least in the standard dialect), Á is definitely different, I'd say /aː/. 195.56.26.108 06:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] English rendition of <ö>
English does not have any equivalent sound to <ö> and <ő>. Many of the English equivalents shown are only approximate anyway (e.g. those for <gy> and <ty>), but to render <ö> as the sound in shirley, early and burn is positively misleading. The sound in these words is [ɜ] (or its rhotic version [ɝ]) which is a central, unrounded vowel; [ø], on the other hand, is a front, rounded vowel. English does not have front rounded vowels, so the only useful course which won't completely confuse the user is to refer to sounds in other languages, e.g. German (as is indeed already done with <ü>). Vilĉjo 11:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
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This is completely false. I am reverting the page back to the version that has those references, as the vowel ö is vocalized in exactly, and precisely in various words that I have included.
The Hungarian word sör (for beer), is pronounced, vocalized and sounds 100% accurately to the start of the name Shirley. If in Hungarian you say "Sör-li", you will have said the english name Shirley, precisely.
Any Hungarian person who pronounces these words below, will have said the english words following it PRECISELY.
Börli : Burly
Örli : Early
Szörli : Surly
Körli : Curly
Sörli : Shirley
Görli : Girly
This will be a precise pronunciation of those words in many dialects of the english language, most notably Canadian, American and British.
You will not revert the page back to what you personally believe it to be, as the fact and the proof stands. You are vandalising the page with your baseless edits. Any further reverting on your part will be negated by my reverting to the actual revision with my proof of the correct and accurate pronunciation. Good day.
DARK ANDY 15:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- It would be more constructive if you could explain, rather than merely assert, your position. Do you hold that
- You have not addressed the fact that standard English does not have front rounded vowels. [ø] is by definition a front rounded vowel, as you will see from the linked article. Therefore, [ø] cannot occur as a sound in English, even if to some hearers it may sound a bit like [ɜ]. Vilĉjo 16:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
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This is correct :
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- [ø] and [ɜ] are so close in pronunciation as to be, in your opinion, practically indistinguishable?
They are indistinguishable. It does not "sound a bit like", it sounds exactly like.
Please ask a Hungarian friend to vocalize any of the above words I have listed, and then you proceed by vocalizing the english word corresponding to the word he/she said. You will find no difference in the sound that both of you said, at all. None.
the link to the [ɜ] page also provided more words that are pronounced entirely, exactly, precisely, accurately and however else you want to say it, with a hungarian ö. The words there are Perfect, and Bird. Those are 2 more words that have a carbon copy vocalization of the hungarian vowel in it.
DARK ANDY 16:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying your point. Unfortunately, the vowels [ø] and [ɜ] are not the same; the International Phonetic Alphabet never uses two different symbols for the same sound. One is close-mid front rounded, the other open-mid central unrounded, and it is easy to both pronounce and hear the difference. These are facts which are easily ascertainable from the relevant articles. Which leads me to wonder whether Hungarian <ö> is not in fact pronounced [ø] – it is the only way in which your statements can be squared with the phonetic facts. I don't rule out that possibility, but unfortunately not only this article, but also this, this and this (and probably others besides) consistently transcribe Hungarian <ö> as [ø], so it is not just this article where you will need to be fighting your case. If [ø] is the correct transcription, then as I have already said, it cannot be "exactly like" any sound in standard English, as English does not have front rounded vowels (see English phonology). Vilĉjo 18:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
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While there may be 2 near identical version of the same sound, I will once again be forced to revert it to the correct version, as there is no differing way to pronounce the same vowel even if you tried. The people who will be looking up the pronunciations for the hungarian letters will not be phonetic experts, they will be normal people who want to know how to pronounce hungarian words more easily.
Any and every time you edit out the words I have put in I will revert them, simply due to the fact your argument leans on the fact that 2 near identical sounds are not the same, therefore you exclude it. It will not be excluded here, as I have provided proof of identical sounds for the same word before, more than once.
- For the record, now that the text has been clarified I am content to leave it in its current form (though do we really need six examples of the sound in question??)
- For future reference, it would help the tone of discussions if you could avoid casting accusations of "vandalism" when engaged in legitimate dispute over content. You may wish to consult Wikipedia:Vandalism, in particular What vandalism is not. Vilĉjo 12:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
