Talk:Hypocrisy

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im stealing the start of this discussion to tell you that this article is totally hypocritical. it claims several times "the high morality" of hypocrisy, and how its a "beneficial trait" and why its necessary. W T F? is this supposed to be a hypocritical joke? cuz' get it, and it shouldnt be found here, on a page that claims professional standards. the lack of ideal moral principles (perhaps not be followed 100% but always being a goal for the constant strive of the happiness seeking man? (and women of course)) this is something to be expected from a page like 'uncyclopedia'. i demand that this gets fixed, or my argumentation corrected, or debated, so that a conclusion may be reached in a dialogical manner. just as socrates would have demanded. in a sense, this is an example of all that is wrong in our society, our constant disregard of moral imperatives and intersocial goals. our culture sure as hell isnt going to help. W T F?

hypocrisy is the act of breaching morality and claiming to be right, inspite of the moral imperative (as described by Kant) wich needs to be the standard of values. nobody is perfect, but our ideas and values should be.

Someone please adress this, and change the "hypocrisy" in this article. hypocrisy is an idea, which means breaching ones own set of moral values (or what is respectively apropriate for the given situation). hypocrisy is doing one thing, and saying the other.

its also worth mentioning that it can be used as a tactic to infuriate and disorient the other part, obviously loosing on a moral ground (the only truly right ground) without however owning up to it.

we are all hypocrites, but is that a reason to say that its right? or necessary? psychologists that say otherwise, lack wisdom and a proper philosophical understanding of the subject at hand. philosophy will be the ultimate judge of what is right, and what is wrong. not psychologists, trying to find mental illness, and stigmatizing pasients with a notion of insanity (this happened to a friend of mine, fucked him up proper!).

remove the hypocrisy!

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Contents 1 Examples? 2 Type of Hypocrisy 3 Religion 4 Cited examples 5 Perhaps this page is its own example. 6 enough 7 NPOV 8 hypo christ? 9 Examples 10 More Examples 10.1 Hypocrisy in Religion 10.2 Individuals 10.3 Hypocrisy in Legislation 10.4 Organizations 10.5 Hypocrisy in Film and Literature 10.6 Films 10.7 Literature 11 Non-Hypocrisy 12 This doesn't make sense 13 How about Personal Behavior? 14 Christian Origins 15 Should this be kept in? 16 Lots of unsourced and original research here

[edit] Examples?

What is the use of a page on hypocrisy without examples? When substantiated facts regarding public exemplars meet the definition, they should be cited.

We can't say "XYZ acted hypocritically", we have to say "ABC said that XYZ acted hypocritically." Pcb21| Pete 22:28, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why not? Afraid of being "politically uncorrect"? Go on man, shout it out and stop having others "saying" it for you, as mariotte figures. If it's just an example, we should drop the "neutral" tone and just SAY IT OUT STRAIGHT. I doubt anyone would be offended 'tho, and if so, we can always set up an NPOV for these articles.--OleMurder 09:20, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Type of Hypocrisy

Let's say that I talk bad about people all of the time and expect it's okay for me to do so, but the moment someone does the same to me, I freak out. What would you call that in only a few words?

And does anyone else think that maybe the Individual's thing is not so good of an idea? --Aviatophobiac 02:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Religion is rife with examples of hypocrisy and no one religion can be said to be immune from it. The Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal among supposedly celibate priests is a recent example.

This is hardly an unbiased statement. Although hypocrisy can be readily attributed to the "celibate" priests who molested children, calling the entire church hypocritical is a stretch.

Is it? They denounce the use of contraception yet also are against abortion, they denounce violence yet also do not believe in divorce (even if the partner is violent against them), they preach being open and honest and following the commandment "thou shalt not lie" and yet in cases regarding this child molestation they purposely cover up this information, pay off people to keep quiet and 'act' as if they still have morals while only trying to keep their image. Sounds very much like a doctrine of hypocracy to me ;) Enigmatical 02:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

They denounce the use of contraception yet also are against abortion,

Your point being? So the Catholic Church doesn't want birth control, but neither do they want the baby to be aborted, also birth control. Hmm... gee, I can't figure it out. Maybe they're...against birth control? Just throwing that out there.--Agent_Koopa 17:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So what is the message they are trying to send/teach by being against birth control? What is the doctrine behind it? Enigmatical 22:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cited examples

I also note that the examples of political figures listed, with the exception of Gary Hart for whom no offense is listed, are all conservative Republicans. Airing out ones own political agenda on a supposedly unbiased knowledge database... another example of hypocrisy?

I wonder if there is any need to cite examples in what is really just a definition of the word? Perhaps these should be spun off into there own lists to be argued over? e.g. hypocrisy - Religion or Hypocrisy - US Politicians etc. --Markb 10:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've removed a few examples which I don't believe to be relevant to the subject of the article. Examples with Congress, if anything, demonstrate double standards rather than hypocrisy ( can this word be used at all with regards to an organization? Do organizations have morals, virtues and feelings? )

When Kenneth Lay was encouraging employees to buy more stock, although he knew the price was going to fall, it was fraud, not hypocrisy.

• why not both? they are not mutually exclusive. His actions contradicted his beliefs, ergo QED.

[edit] Perhaps this page is its own example.

Although not explicitly saying so, this article seems a tad hypocritical on its own. The article doesn't require itself to be unbiased, but it is somewhat expected, and it clearly is not.

Exactly. I mean, honestly. Can we please stop airing out our own agendas on the wiki? This is ridiculous.

[edit] enough

Okay, apparently we can't have examples in a hypocrisy page without them degrading into a biased political platform, so I'm deleting them. The Wiki is a source of information, not a soapbox. Lets try to be adults here. If you have political baggage, start a blog like everyone else. I don't have a username to sign my edits and posts with, so I'll just give my email address. deedeethedog@yahoo.com

[edit] NPOV

This article has a lot of problems. Although, the article gives a good definition of "hypocrisy," it soon devolves into unsupported POV writing. For example, all the allegations of hypocrisy among particular people need to be qualified as there is no way we can ever tell if a person is objectively a hypocrite. Since a "hypocrite" is a person who professes to hold beliefs he doesn't actually hold, in order to know that someone is a hypocrite, one would have to know what is going on in that person's mind. This is impossible. Thus, we can only say that a person has been called a hypocrite or has been suspected of hypocrisy.

Further, some of the examples given are highly questionable. First, Gary Hart is listed with no explanation given whatsoever. Also, William Bennett is listed as a hypocrite due to his gambling problem. This overlooks the fact that Bennett is Catholic, and the Catholic Church does not consider gambling sinful. -- Temtem 02:42, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted out the examples. I don't feel we should list any examples because labelling something as hypocritical is not objective. Jgardner 08:28, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)

Well done. I agree 100% with your removal and your argument for it. Shanes 06:08, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I moved the Dr Stanovich paragraph to its own article and cleaned up the paragraph on hypocrisy and the church. I think this is a good article now. It manages to stay NPOV throughout and is very informitive on the subject.

[edit] hypo christ?

hypocrite "is a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion" according to Britannica online. May be the word is related to Christ somehow.

No, I don't think so. Both "hypocrite" and "Christ" are of Greek origin, but hypocrite derives from a word meaning "actor on the stage" while "Christ" derives from "anointed." -- Temtem 22:32, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Examples

What is the use of a page on hypocrisy without examples? When substantiated facts regarding public exemplars meet the definition, they should be cited.

The problem is that there is never a way to know if a public example is a hypocrite or not. To prove someone is a hypocrite, you have to prove that that that person does not hold beliefs that he pretends to hold. This is not possible. Therefore, including examples is speculative, and introduces a huge potential for adding POV to the article in the form of attacks on public persons the poster simply does not like. -- Temtem

This is patently absurd and ridiculous, public figures who made public statements in contradiction to their publically revealed actions fit all the criteria. Hypocrisy is objectively verifiable.

No, because they may have truly held beliefs that they were unable to follow. Proving hypocrisy involves proving that a person's professed beliefs are insincere. While failure to act according to those professed beliefs may provide evidence for hypocrisy, it is not hypocrisy in itself. Further, including examples, especially among public figures, of perceived hypocrisy opens up the door to POV writing. People tend to see the worst in those they disagree with, and they examples therefore necessarily reflect this bias. -- Temtem 17:51, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

Metaphysical blather worthy of a medieval theologian. So, when Strom Thurmond fathers an illegitimate child with his black servant and then later actively supports segregation, or Rush Limbaugh lectures on the radio about drug abuse and later is revealed to be a drug addict illegally procuring drugs, the Wikipedia NPOV Nazis insist there is no way to know if such actions were examples of hypocrisy or not.

If Thurmond and his supporters all agreed that he was being a hypocrite, then fine. But if there are arguments for why his actions were not an act of hypocracy, then to be POV, we'd have to list those to. So it would basicly be a long article discussing allegations on each example. And that's not what the hypocracy article is about. List and discus each persons alleged level of hypocracy on the article on those persons instead.

But I liked you making the examples its own article, List of Hypocrites. Then we can finally get some debate over it. I've allready VFD'ed it, but who knows. Maybe it will be kept. Some lists close to this one has been kept before, so I wouldn't be surprised. Good luck, and thanks for commenting on this here on talk. Shanes 15:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. But it seems to me whether or not Thurmond's supporters think it was or was not hypocrisy is irrelevant, actions and statements are objective facts. To maintain that the definition of hypocrisy is entirely subjective is stretching the definition to the metaphysical breaking point, imho.

Yes, I see your point. At some point it should be possible to call someone something even if they don't themselves exactly agrees in it. Did Clinton have sexual relations with that woman? Yes he did. Even though Clinton says he didn't. Or maybe it depends on the definition of the word it. Or however it was, I've forgotten it and I digress. But a list of presidents who cheated on their wifes could probably be made. Dunno. But in my oppinion these hypocracy examples stretch the NPOV-rule on what you can state without listing counter-arguments too much. So I don't like it. But you and probably others might want to keep it. We'll see. Shanes 16:08, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Some things can be viewed as hypocritical but may be correcting a previous wrong doing. This example may be too political but some said the US was hypocritical to invade Iraq because of weapons when the US actually supplied the weapons. It could be argued that the US was correcting a previous wrong. I think something like this should be put in! I'll see what I can do. - Chris, Wales, UK 18:22GMT 5th Dec 2005

[edit] More Examples

Metaphysical platitudes re the unknowability of any one individual's actions and intentions aside, here, for the record is the censored List of Hypocrites the NPOV Nazis didnt want you to see:

[edit] Hypocrisy in Religion

Hypocritical behavior can be found in all religions and institutes of religion in proportion to the degree of the religion's advocacy of fundamentalism or orthodoxy.

The Protestant Reformation started by Martin Luther was motivated in large part by the perceived hypocrisy of Catholicism in their selling of "indulgences" to permit violence before the crime has happened.

The Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal among supposedly celibate priests is a recent example.

During the rule of the theocratic Taliban government there were numerous reports concerning hypocritical behavior the Taliban rulers engaged in while at the same time punishing others for the same behavior [1].

The celibate monks of Mount Athos were found having sexual relations with the local sheep.

The New Testament refers specifically to hypocrites and hypocritical behavior in several places. In one passage, Jesus denounces the sect of the Pharisees for hypocritical behavior.as, for example, the Gospel of Matthew chapter 23, paragraphs 13 to 15:

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Gospel of Matthew 23:13-15:

In Zen Buddhism, the San Francisco Zen Center forced its abbot Zentatsu Richard Baker to resign in the 1980's due to charges involving, among other things, allegedly hypocritical behavior.

[edit] Individuals

Mark Foley

Marion Barry

Jimmy Swaggart

Jesse Jackson, U.S. politician and ordained Baptist minister, giving religious counseling to Bill Clinton regarding his extra-marital affair, while himself secretly paying his own former mistress to remain quiet about the illegitimate child he fathered with her.

Ken Lay of Enron, who sold large amounts of his Enron stock in September and October of 2001 as its price fell, while encouraging employees to buy more stock, telling them the company would rebound.

Roy Cohn, lawyer involved with the McCarthy hearings, denounced homosexuality while himself being gay and a frequenter of gay bars

George W. Bush, U.S. President, advocates freedom and democratic values while his own administration works to undermine government transparency and civil liberties.

Dianne Feinstein, U.S. senator, is a strong supporter of gun control, while being known to have carried concealed handguns herself in California, where getting concealed carry permits is nearly impossible.

William Bennett, U.S. advisor to the president on moral policies, admitted to $8 million losses from a gambling addiction.

Strom Thurmond, U.S. politician, actively promoted segregation after fathering the child of a black servant.

Kim Jong Il, Korean dictator, exhorts his subjects to make sacrifices while he lives in ostentatious luxury.

Newt Gingrich, U.S. politician, critic of president Bill Clinton's morality, while himself engaging in an extramarital affair, and lying under oath.

Rush Limbaugh, U.S. right-wing radio broadcaster, illegally procured drugs while lecturing on the radio about immorality.

Gary Hart, U.S. politician

Tom DeLay US politician, promoting extraordinary legislation to save Terri Schiavo while having previously allowed his own father to be removed from life support.

[edit] Hypocrisy in Legislation

The United States Congress, requiring U.S. citizens to participate in the Social Security program, while exempting themselves from participating in that very program, in favour of a more profitable one.

This statement is not hypocrisy. In no way is it going against their beleifs. Everyone is entitled to Social Security but when you exempt it you can get a better program. Hypocrisy would be for example if everyone is entited to Social Security but not if you are a homosexual.

The United States Congress, defeating nominal increases to the minimum wage for U.S. citizens at the same time as providing substantial wage increases for themselves for 8 years in a row. (The federal minimum wage is currently approximately $10,000 per year ($5.15 per hour for a 40 hour work week) and hasn't changed in nine years (1996 to 2005), at the same time as Congress has repeatedly acted to increase their own wage by $28,500 to $162,000 [2].)

The above statement is not hypocrisy. It is rather consistent when you think about it. Our Congressmen believes that the poor should not be paid more while beleiving in being paid more themselves. There is no inconsistecies. It is not moral -better put not within our morals-, yes, but it is not hypocrisy. To make this statement a subject of hypocrisy, Congress' policy would have to to help America's lower class then pass legislation against it. It is pretty clear that they don't care for the lower class by their actions. So their policy, by action, is not to help the poor. Policy for Congress is basically their belif system. They are not going against it thus are not hypocrites. It is not hypocrisy, just unfortunate. They will be misrepresenting their populous they mean to represent. In that case you have the right to not vote for them next term.

[edit] Organizations

RIAA Recording industry organization prosecuting individuals engaged in file sharing purportedly to protect the interests of the artists, at the same time as supporting publishers engaged in artist exploitation that cheats artists out of their fair share of royalty payments by using accounting tricks.

[edit] Hypocrisy in Film and Literature

The following films or works of literature have been cited as either dealing with issues of hypocrisy, or portraying hypocritical characters:

[edit] Films

• Elmer Gantry
• Casablanca (movie), "I am shocked, shocked, ... Here are your winnings sir."
• Election (movie)
• Apocalypse Now
• Dr. Strangelove "In the context of impending world destruction, hypocrisy, misunderstanding, lechery, paranoia, ambition, euphemism, patriotism, heroism, and even reasonableness can evoke a grisly laugh." director Stanley Kubrick
• One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
• Silver City (movie)
• Easy Rider

[edit] Literature

• Marquis de Sade
  • Growing up, the Marquis de Sade was influenced by the hypocrisy of his uncle, a Church official who engaged in sexual perversions. He later portrayed examples of such hypocrisy in his novel 'The misfortunes of virtue'.
• Mark Twain
• H.L. Mencken
• Jonathan Swift
• Oscar Wilde depicted social hypocrisy in his play The Importance of Being Earnest.
• Terry Pratchett writes about hypocrisy in his Discworld novels.

[edit] Non-Hypocrisy

The article should explicitly point out that hypocrisy does not include openly stating that someone else's behaviour as well as one's own behaviour is wrong.

Failing to do what one believes to be right is not hypocrisy.

For instance, a driver who regularly exceeds the speed-limit might say: It is wrong to exceed the speed-limit. Would he be a hypocrite? Not unless he pretended to always obey the speed-limit himself.

[edit] This doesn't make sense

The section in question is:

"Some people believe that most, if not all people are hypocrites since we constantly criticize what we deem to be bad behavior, even though most people do bad things at some point in their lives."

I do not believe this makes much sense when viewed in light of the word hypocracy. I believe it would be more accurate if the comment was about how we as people view our own actions to be justified while the very same actions being done "to" us would be villified as being wrong. Thus the hypocracy comes not from "even though most people do bad things at some point", but from the fact that the very same act is viewed differently depending on whether we are the one committing the act or being the victim of the act. I am sure there are many people in the world who do these bad things and yet freely admit they are bad and could never be considered hypocrits as it is not the act of doing something wrong which makes them hypocritical.

Example:

A person sees a person drop $20 in the street. They dont bother to tell them and take it for themselves. In their mind they justify this action by saying "Losers weepers, Finders keepers". Some months later the person themselves drops money by accident. They realise this, turn around and find someone else taking their money. All of a sudden they are enraged and screaming "thief!!!" and claiming that their act was very wrong. The person is a hypocrit because the same act is viewed differently depending on the side of the fence you are on.

This kind of behaviour (and thus what I believe is the reason for the original quote) is clearly seen in many areas of society:

• People who are opposed to the death penalty yet when a close member of their own family is murdered they change their mind
• People who claim all drugs are bad and yet drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes
• People who disregard the rules of society for their own benefit (ie robbers) and then expect those same rules to protect them later (ie when they are injured during robbery)
• People who do not contribute to society (ie unemployed bludgers) yet expect society to support them (Note: This is a subset of those who are unemployed, not intended to mean all)
• Bullies who abuse the rights of others yet complain when their own rights are abused
• Authorities who persocute people for breaking the law and then protect their own when they break the law
• Governments/Countries who claim attrocities have been committed against them while at the same time committing attrocities against others
• Religions who preach acceptance and tolerance and then condemn and persocute those who are different to them
• Spiritual people who believe they they must automatically follow the only correct path while everyone else must obviously follow the wrong one
• Journalists/Media who claim the right to freedom of the press and then cry foul when their own dirty laundry is aired

The list goes on ;) Enigmatical 02:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"People who do not contribute to society (ie unemployed bludgers) yet expect society to support them"- This is in no way hypocritical. Hypocracy would be complaining about welfare services and then expecting society to support them. An unjustified sense of entitlement, however, does not apply. ~~

[edit] How about Personal Behavior?

I agree with you Enigmatical, and I am frustrated by this definition of a word I thought I understood quite well. When you say one thing, but do another, AND justify it, as in it isn't merely a mistake or a moment of weakness, that to me is hypocrisy. But I guess I'm wrong. Apparently we can never know what someone Actualy believes or feels, because they may be Lieing when they state their feelings or beliefs. Therefore their statements, and their actions, are not reliable reflections of their Actual beliefs or feelings, and no judgment can be accurately made as to whether they are hypocrites. This is making my head spin, and hurt alot.

I really think we need a WORD to define when someone's behavior does not match their stated positions, beliefs, opinions, or whatever. Putting it under "double standard" is not putting a WORD to it. For instance, say I'm playing an online game, and I meet someone who Kills me, and claims they hate it when people Kill others on that game, and their justification for killing me is that they have been killed by others and are now angry and taking it out on random players. I am a victim of a victim. Is this an example of hypocrisy? Or is it an example of "double standard"? If it is a "double standard" being applied by the one who killed me, what words do I use to accuse them of their incongruous behavior? "You are a Hypocrite!" apparently does not apply, so, do I say "You are applying a Double Standard!"? Somehow it just doesn't have the same Punch.

To me "Double Standard" relates only to how one decides how different groups should be treated based on their behavior. If a man commits murder, and whether he is found guilty or not depends solely on the color of his skin, that is a Double Standard, aka Racism. The differences between how Women and Men are treated in the work place, or by employers, is another example. A woman can get maternity leave to take care of a new baby, but a man cannot. I detect a Double Standard there as well.

If I constantly and publicly state that I am against circumcision in all cases, and then have my own child circumcised, am I a hypocrite? If I am totaly against abortion, but force my daughter to have an abortion, am I a hypocrite? Have I actualy stated my real beliefs, or was I lieing? Was my behavior based on my REAL beliefs, and my stated beliefs were lies? My head hurts too much to keep going.

This is all My Humble Opinion, and I am probably quite stupid and an idiot. --Krepta3000 23:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Origins

This section should be renamed to something else, or be done away completely. Hypocrisy didn't originate from Christianity. It was present way back. I'm putting a relevancy tag. Headbomb 17:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this section of the article serves little purpose. 76.183.106.17 03:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should this be kept in?

'An example of hypocrisy might be the fact that an online encyclopedia which was built from the contributions of millions of users now rejects useful personal websites from being listed in those same contributions under the guise of verfiability and reliability while simultaneously allowing its articles to become advertorials for major manufacturers. An example of this might be located here (leaf spring) which is now an advertorial for General Motors (corvette leaf springs).'

~obviously this doesn't really fit, and someone is riled up...I don't know if deleting this passage or not would be destroying the right to free speech; actually, that can be done on the talk page or on a forum, not in an otherwise factual article (as this is opinion). I'm going to leave it in and let somebody else do what they think should be done with it. Baberlp 20:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

eh?... isn't it not hypocrasy anyway? I mean, adventorials by large companies =/= personal websites. Just a thought. Hey, what is the guy complaining about anyway? I really don't see anything on "leaf spring" of note... 218.186.9.1 17:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not self-referential. Even if it were, this would need to appear in a published source, or it is original research. Jokestress 17:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lots of unsourced and original research here

Much of this article violates Wikipedia's rules of objectivity. Statements like, "Examples of behavior mistakenly attributed to hypocrisy" are clearly subjective and someone's unsourced personal opinion. This should be an encyclopedia article with only sourced information. Unsourced personal opinion has no place here. 209.179.168.32 18:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this whole article is a hot mess. I am going to start adding reliable sources. If we are going to include examples, they need to be examples cited in reliable published sources, not just an editor's opinion of what constitutes hypocrisy. For instance, Noam Chomsky published a book Case Studies In Hypocrisy: U.S. Human Rights Policy, and Keith Windschuttle published a book on the hypocrisy of Noam Chomsky in The New Criterion. That way we can avoid a lot of the political arguments. Cite your sources. Simple as that. Jokestress 19:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Would newspaper articles be oncisdered a sorce for this article? i have a substrictpion to washing post times and i think that could find artlces to verify alleggd ases of hypcoristy. Smith Jones 02:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely! We can quote articles as examples. Jokestress 02:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)